[PANN][enter-talk] THE REASON WHY IDOLS ARE F*CKING FAILURES NOW

[satoori]

25 minutes ago, le.ah said:

I don't think it can be considered alone a decent sample. Maybe using Melon+Genie

And beyond that, Melon is not reliable. Too much sageji scandals in their bag 

Nah it's still a really really good sample size. Actually bigger than a "sample". And Genie would just add back the inflation of mass streaming.

Other charts have been accused of sajaegi too. It's just the last 2-3 years Melon was hit hard due to more media and idols jumping on the bandwagon. But since then they've reformed, so..

 

22 minutes ago, hynapia said:

Agree. Back in 2nd and early 3rd gen idol groups were everywhere in variety shows, dramas, etc so they were more exposed to the general public. Nowadays they barely go to popular shows that the GP watches, aside from promoting a few weeks in music shows or going to idol shows that only some kpop fans watch like idol room or weekly idol.

But still, I think the GP atm is just not interested in checking out for new groups in general. I mean, some groups have it members but they still don't seem to be able to make the GP care about their respective groups, kinda like Eunwoo and Rowoon's case. They have a lot of public popularity but Astro and SF9 haven't really had any smash hit. In comparison during second gen and early 3rd gen, it members like Suzy, Hyuna, Nichkhun, Sungjae etc succeed in making the GP interested in their respective groups.

Eunwoo and Rowoon are sort of some of the Suzys of this gen lol, especially Eunwoo... so it's still sort of hard to determine how 3rd gen/3.5 would be doing if companies were actually marketing for "it" members and variety-dols.

Edited January 7, 2021 by satoori

[loozzer]

i still don't really get how idols are perceived in korea lol. are they basically like the disney kids of the music industry? is there a western equivalent to kpop idols?

[Ludo]

2 hours ago, loozzer said:

i still don't really get how idols are perceived in korea lol. are they basically like the disney kids of the music industry? is there a western equivalent to kpop idols?

Would like to know too

[starsocks]

20 hours ago, panqueque said:

In any website they hate international fans, but in person they are really nice. I think it has to do more of we put more effort than u (a lot time is false tho) and they give u (international fans) more attention. I mean a lot of people here hate knetz too, different country different perspective. 

For sure, you summarised it super well. 

19 hours ago, taeyang_is_the_sun said:

hmm well i guess they wouldn't be happy to know that i dont even consider me and them to be in the same fandom. i dont have any relationship with them

tbh

[taeyang_is_the_sun]

Just now, choiyujins said:

For sure, you summarised it super well. 

tbh

 

they call us roaches but i found out today that they eat pupa , so....maybe its a compliment? lmfao dont eat us, kfans! 

[meonji]

i know this is happening but from the title i thought they would address why companies are doing it in the first place lol

[RIPHaldir]

On 1/7/2021 at 12:07 PM, satoori said:

By the way, not Koreans trying to claim "old school" BTS now...

Back in the days, BTS were not popular domestically either and were constantly dragged by Koreans. It's exactly because of the lack of domestic support BTS started doing more international tours and fanmeets instead. Known for being a group who started relying on sns heavily to communicate with ifans. It's due to BTS international success and achievements later that they've been able to gain recognition from the general public.

What companies are doing nowadays is exactly what Bighit did with BTS. Tho the main difference - BTS attempted to reach out to all international markets where they had fans and where they could enter. Nowadays many companies are putting Western markets specifically the US above everyone. 

Lets be honest tho, BTS before 2017 had better korean charting then svt/nct/stray kidz/ateez/txt/etc all have nowadays

 

I think the main problem with Stray kids, Ateez, Treasure, and Enhyphen is that they get literally 0 index on gaon, which is crazy for groups selling 430k-240k when groups only selling 100k physically (AB6IX, SF9, Astro, etc) can still get at least 2 million index on a title track, such a small korean fandom is concerning and will hurt them later on - look at what got7 and monsta x have said about being more popular internationally then in Korea

[satoori]

12 minutes ago, RIPHaldir said:

Lets be honest tho, BTS before 2017 had better korean charting then svt/nct/stray kidz/ateez/txt/etc all have nowadays

 

I think the main problem with Stray kids, Ateez, Treasure, and Enhyphen is that they get literally 0 index on gaon, which is crazy for groups selling 430k-240k when groups only selling 100k physically (AB6IX, SF9, Astro, etc) can still get at least 2 million index on a title track, such a small korean fandom is concerning and will hurt them later on - look at what got7 and monsta x have said about being more popular internationally then in Korea

Tue. 

Debatable. There's a difference between Korean public and Korean fandom. In my opinion, the Korean public isn't necessary. These groups do have kfans (aka a korean fandom) which is why they chart better on other charts outside of reformed Melon. Got7 is suffering not due to their lack of public recognition or because of money issues (Got7 is profitable),...but more so because of lack of creative freedom as an artists. Further showing groups can do well financially relying on their large fandoms. There are 2nd gen groups still living off the loads of money they've made in Japan.

Edited January 10, 2021 by satoori

[RIPHaldir]

2 minutes ago, satoori said:

Tue. (tho bts is pre-reform too)

Debatable. There's a difference between Korean public and Korean fandom. In my opinion, the Korean public isn't necessary. These groups do have kfans (aka a korean fandom) which is why they chart better on other charts outside of reformed melon. Got7 is suffering not due to their lack of public recognition or because of money issues, but more so because of lack of creative freedom as an artists.  Further showing groups do just fine financially relying on their large fandoms. There are 2nd gen groups still living off the loads of money they've made in Japan alone.

Groups can be succesfull without digital success I just believe it places a kind of glass ceiling that divides the top groups and at the end of the day groups want their music to be acknowledged in Korea (Ateez, Stray Kids, Got7, Svt, etc have all said this before) and its not just a matter of melon charting since gaon includes genie, bugs, flo, vibe, etc as well - lack of digital success is why svt & nct struggle to get more then 4 wins per cb despite selling a million+ albums since they quickly lose digital and broadcast points

[hynapia]

25 minutes ago, RIPHaldir said:

Groups can be succesfull without digital success I just believe it places a kind of glass ceiling that divides the top groups and at the end of the day groups want their music to be acknowledged in Korea (Ateez, Stray Kids, Got7, Svt, etc have all said this before) and its not just a matter of melon charting since gaon includes genie, bugs, flo, vibe, etc as well - lack of digital success is why svt & nct struggle to get more then 4 wins per cb despite selling a million+ albums since they quickly lose digital and broadcast points

I wouldn't say SVT and NCT have bad digitals though. For example kick it is still charting 400s on melon and it was released nearly a YEAR ago. NCT U's recent songs like make a wish and 90s love are still 200-300s on melon too. Same with SVT's left and right (400s on melon and made it to gaon yearly digital chart even if it was very low) and homerun (500s). Meawhile the groups you used as example (Astro, SF9 and AB6IX) don't really last more than a few weeks at most on melon top 1000.

As for SKZ/Ateez/Treasure/Enhypen, the last 2 debuted only 1-5 months ago and the GP right now doesn't seem interested in majority of new groups (especially bgs), but afaik they can chart at least top 1000 on melon and SKZ/ATEEZ charted as high as top 10 in sites like Genie which it's literally the second most important chart after melon with a small difference in market share nowadays. Enhypen has also charted on gaon download chart which it's something than many groups fail to do. Even Weeekly being a girl group and having decent attention in Korea, surprisingly didn't manage to chart there.

Ideally, a combination of good digitals + physicals and popularity both domestically and internationally would be ideal, but groups like Monsta X and GOT7 (especially MX) have showed that you can be perfectly successful with a international fandom and good sales only. And that's the case of many groups, including even ggs like Dreamcatcher, Loona and Everglow that don't crack the top 100 on major charts or just barely but they are considered successful for their sales, views and global fandom.

Edited January 10, 2021 by hynapia

[satoori]

1 hour ago, RIPHaldir said:

Groups can be succesfull without digital success I just believe it places a kind of glass ceiling that divides the top groups and at the end of the day groups want their music to be acknowledged in Korea (Ateez, Stray Kids, Got7, Svt, etc have all said this before) and its not just a matter of melon charting since gaon includes genie, bugs, flo, vibe, etc as well - lack of digital success is why svt & nct struggle to get more then 4 wins per cb despite selling a million+ albums since they quickly lose digital and broadcast points

Well, true groups will not be acknowledge by the public but they'll still be wealthy. This isn't uncommon for boy groups tho. Public popularity isn't necessary to be breadwinners. 

[borams]

the title is so hilarious lol, i personally dont think theyre that wrong but thats not even the idols' fault

[RIPHaldir]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:45 PM, hynapia said:

I wouldn't say SVT and NCT have bad digitals though. For example kick it is still charting 400s on melon and it was released nearly a YEAR ago. NCT U's recent songs like make a wish and 90s love are still 200-300s on melon too. Same with SVT's left and right (400s on melon and made it to gaon yearly digital chart even if it was very low) and homerun (500s). Meawhile the groups you used as example (Astro, SF9 and AB6IX) don't really last more than a few weeks at most on melon top 1000.

As for SKZ/Ateez/Treasure/Enhypen, the last 2 debuted only 1-5 months ago and the GP right now doesn't seem interested in majority of new groups (especially bgs), but afaik they can chart at least top 1000 on melon and SKZ/ATEEZ charted as high as top 10 in sites like Genie which it's literally the second most important chart after melon with a small difference in market share nowadays. Enhypen has also charted on gaon download chart which it's something than many groups fail to do. Even Weeekly being a girl group and having decent attention in Korea, surprisingly didn't manage to chart there.

Ideally, a combination of good digitals + physicals and popularity both domestically and internationally would be ideal, but groups like Monsta X and GOT7 (especially MX) have showed that you can be perfectly successful with a international fandom and good sales only. And that's the case of many groups, including even ggs like Dreamcatcher, Loona and Everglow that don't crack the top 100 on major charts or just barely but they are considered successful for their sales, views and global fandom.

Let me know when nct and svt can get 100 mill index in less then 2 months on gaon with a song, kicking around in the bottom of melon doesnt mean anything but fandom power

[hynapia]

2 hours ago, RIPHaldir said:

Let me know when nct and svt can get 100 mill index in less then 2 months on gaon with a song, kicking around in the bottom of melon doesnt mean anything but fandom power

Fandom power or not, they still have better digitals than the vast majority of bgs right now. Because who else aside from BTS can last long in k-charts and get high digital index? Groups like B1A4, BTOB and iKON used to chart well but their last comebacks had less longevity on melon than SVT/NCT releases which are still charting top 300-500. And other groups that can chart well too such as Highlight, Block B, EXO, Winner, etc are currently enlisted/inactive too.

I never said SVT and NCT have great digitals by any means but they do well for the current standard of boygroups and they're considered successful. It doesn't matter if their charting is fandom driven or not, the thing is that they're doing above average.

Edited January 23, 2021 by hynapia

[RIPHaldir]

21 hours ago, hynapia said:

Fandom power or not, they still have better digitals than the vast majority of bgs right now. Because who else aside from BTS can last long in k-charts and get high digital index? Groups like B1A4, BTOB and iKON used to chart well but their last comebacks had less longevity on melon than SVT/NCT releases which are still charting top 300-500. And other groups that can chart well too such as Highlight, Block B, EXO, Winner, etc are currently enlisted/inactive too.

I never said SVT and NCT have great digitals by any means but they do well for the current standard of boygroups and they're considered successful. It doesn't matter if their charting is fandom driven or not, the thing is that they're doing above average.

Winner has declined, tho not as badly as Ikon, Svt & NCT are doing good compared to other bgs right now but that doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme when l & r scraping 100 mill 5 months after release is considered a hit when a gg like gidle has to hit 300mill+ for it to be a hit - my main point is without at least decent digitals svt and nct will never be real top groups and they dont have it despite being good physical sellers

[hynapia]

2 hours ago, RIPHaldir said:

Winner has declined, tho not as badly as Ikon, Svt & NCT are doing good compared to other bgs right now but that doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme when l & r scraping 100 mill 5 months after release is considered a hit when a gg like gidle has to hit 300mill+ for it to be a hit - my main point is without at least decent digitals svt and nct will never be real top groups and they dont have it despite being good physical sellers

The standard for top bgs and top ggs is different tho. It's well known that ggs' strong point is digital sales and public recognition while for bgs is fandom power and sales. 100-200M of index for a bg is like selling 100-200k for a gg, both are considered above the standard. Izone's best performing song is Fiesta which only has a bit under 400M but they're considered a top gg because their physical sales are way above average for a gg.

From what I've seen they usually consider a group "top" when they excel in one area (physical or digital) and do above average in the other or when they're great in both like BTS, Twice or Blackpink. To me personally groups that sell over 500k-1M and chart above average  are definitely top.

Edited January 24, 2021 by hynapia

[jjangyi]

surprised at how many people got offended for the term i-roaches, they call us that all the time i thought everyone is used to it 

[Kittenae]

17 hours ago, jjangyi said:

surprised at how many people got offended for the term i-roaches, they call us that all the time i thought everyone is used to it 

Same. I remember sones were called soneroaches, exo-ls were called exoroaches, shawols were called sharoaches, etc lol. Back then i-fans were able to poke fun at this and never take themselves seriously. While many kpop fans these days are so overly sensitive, they easily get their panties in a twist.

[peacemaker]

On 1/23/2021 at 9:12 AM, hynapia said:

Fandom power or not, they still have better digitals than the vast majority of bgs right now. Because who else aside from BTS can last long in k-charts and get high digital index? Groups like B1A4, BTOB and iKON used to chart well but their last comebacks had less longevity on melon than SVT/NCT releases which are still charting top 300-500. And other groups that can chart well too such as Highlight, Block B, EXO, Winner, etc are currently enlisted/inactive too.

I never said SVT and NCT have great digitals by any means but they do well for the current standard of boygroups and they're considered successful. It doesn't matter if their charting is fandom driven or not, the thing is that they're doing above average.

when did boy group standard became so low. wtf. lmao 

Edited January 29, 2021 by peacemaker

[Mami3chan]

On 1/28/2021 at 10:31 PM, jjangyi said:

surprised at how many people got offended for the term i-roaches, they call us that all the time i thought everyone is used to it 

that's the newer generation of I-roaches for you lol a bunch of babies who get offended by their own shadows  

[RIPHaldir]

On 1/29/2021 at 7:10 AM, peacemaker said:

when did boy group standard became so low. wtf. lmao 

Since 2018 when w1 disbanded, exo stopped being consistently active , and winner/ikon started declining to the point winner cant hit 100mill on their prerelease or title and ikon cant get over 30mill

[Kayden411]

On 1/7/2021 at 5:07 PM, satoori said:

By the way, not Koreans trying to claim "old school" BTS now...

Back in the days, BTS were not popular domestically either and were constantly dragged by Koreans. It's exactly because of the lack of domestic support BTS started doing more international tours and fanmeets instead. Known for being a group who started relying on sns heavily to communicate with ifans. It's due to BTS international success and achievements later that they've been able to gain recognition from the general public.

What companies are doing nowadays is exactly what Bighit did with BTS. Tho the main difference - BTS attempted to reach out to all international markets where they had fans and where they could enter. Nowadays many companies are putting Western markets specifically the US above everyone. 

So true

I remember when I went to the Mamamoo fanmeeting in Seoul (was meeting my partner and why not) and the clear disregard for i-fans was there but in person they were happy for the domestic support (at SKY universities and buying and selling there).

A lot of it stems from people not giving groups a chance so groups know if they aim at international markets you have a better chance of remaining profitable while you build up the home fanbase. Why not release albums and minis that appeal to an international audience? If you know youll sell the 20-30K required to recoup and then can go on variety for being a good selling group and rebuild home fans that makes sense

It is funny to me to see people claiming they supported BTS from the beginning in SK when we know that was not the case initially until they broke out with I Need U and Run etc and SK started waking up and listening to them

It is a shame they consider these other groups flops but then hold breaking into Billboard a high achievement and disregard 90% of the groups who do this.

 

[hynapia]

On 1/29/2021 at 1:10 PM, peacemaker said:

when did boy group standard became so low. wtf. lmao 

Boygroups have always charted worse than girl groups tho, even back in 2nd gen the biggest hits were usually girl group songs and Big Bang (and maybe Beast?) were the only bgs that were considered "digital monsters" capable of competing with the top ggs in charts but yeah, since 2017/18 has become even worse. Like I said a bg (excluding BTS) getting 100-200M of digital index nowadays would be comparable to a gg selling 100-200k. In fact even most ggs struggle to chart well outside of the 4-5 top ggs (Twice, BP, RV, Mamamoo, Iz*one) + a few rising/trendy like OMG, G-idle, ITZY, Aespa, etc.

Edited February 1, 2021 by hynapia

[hynapia]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:37 AM, satoori said:

Well, true groups will not be acknowledge by the public but they'll still be wealthy. This isn't uncommon for boy groups tho. Public popularity isn't necessary to be breadwinners. 

This reminds me that yesterday I saw that they chose Stray Kids as the new models for Clio which it's a decently popular comestic brand in Korea. So this shows that you don't necessarily need digital success even to get endorsements (I'm saying this because people tend to link digital success = CF deals, drama gigs, etc and many groups get those despite a lack of digital success).

[satoori]

4 hours ago, hynapia said:

This reminds me that yesterday I saw that they chose Stray Kids as the new models for Clio which it's a decently popular comestic brand in Korea. So this shows that you don't necessarily need digital success even to get endorsements (I'm saying this because people tend to link digital success = CF deals, drama gigs, etc and many groups get those despite a lack of digital success).

agree

these brands know big fandoms are basically free marketing/promo. fandoms naturally will talk about the products on sns and other places which is beneficial for the brand.