[PANN][enter-talk] THE REASON WHY IDOLS ARE F*CKING FAILURES NOW

[Floatie]

They're rewriting history a little bit with BTS. BTS doing well overseas(mainly in the US) is what lead to their current popularity in Korea, not the other way around. They had a strong core base in Korea but were largely overlooked until they won the paper award and got major press. A huge part of the motivation ARMYs had to win that paper award was to get Korea to finally pay attention.

They are a  National Treasure in Korea because of their accomplishments abroad and spreading hallyu in ways we have never seen before and will never see again. So it makes sense that new groups immediately go for the international bag because that's just BTS' impact.

Anyway, carry on.

[Mami3chan]

34 minutes ago, Floatie said:

They are a  National Treasure in Korea because of their accomplishments abroad and spreading hallyu in ways we have never seen before and will never see again. So it makes sense that new groups immediately go for the international bag because that's just BTS' impact.

that's the point not every group can become BTS-2 also other groups previously tried to break onto the International market but failed BTS is just on another level but non the less I can see why the newer groups get motivated more to do well overseas 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Mami3chan

[hynapia]

33 minutes ago, satoori said:

I was mainly talking about how Produced franchise in general blocked the amount of new fans for other groups.

I don't think GP has changed much from the past till now, at least for boy groups. In the past, there were not many boy groups with huge hits or huge popularity with the public either. Kfans have always viewed groups who were not poupar domestically negatively. However yes since the 3rd gen there have been less groups. I think the current top groups are dominating the public market right now. Perhaps in time things will change.

For girl groups, companies are simply more focused on catering the fandom rather then the public.

 

Agree that ggs have always had bigger hits and more GP  recognition but still, during second gen there was quite a few bgs even from mid-tier companies that had actual digital hits, such as Beast, MBLAQ, Infinite, Teen Top, B1A4, Block B, etc. They weren't as big as Big3 bgs like DBSK, SuJu, Big Bang, 2PM etc but they were still able to chart very well and get public recognition. Nowadays BTS is basically the only active bg that have actual hits. Others can chart decently but not enough to top the charts or even being top 10-20.

As for ggs, there's also quite a few that are popular overseas but not so much in Korea, such as Dreamcatcher, Loona, Everglow and Secret Number. But it's understandable because the established top and mid-tier ggs are still pretty strong and the public isn't checking out for recent groups aside from Big3 ggs like ITZY or Aespa.

But still, I don't think groups that have a big i-fandom and sell millions of albums can be considered flops just because they're unpopular domestically. As long you're selling well and making money that's not a flop at all.

Edited January 7, 2021 by hynapia

[mena]

I still remember when BTS were called nugus in every koreans posts... And now, they call them Korea's pride and act like they were interested in them before they become globally popular...

yes they are korea's pride, but it's clearly not because of Koreans.

I hope at least one the groups they are dragging the most right now become really popular (mostly zzz seems they are the ones mentioned here), so that I can laugh when they will try to act like they were interested in them before.

[hynapia]

21 minutes ago, lighterxx said:

some groups simply do not need smash hits, svt might not have a smash hit but their streams are quite good for a bg 

people just literally demand perfect all kill, when you dont get one they call groups flop like-

we need to understand we wont get all kills like old times. Melon chart reform makes it so hard for bgs, even if they have public presence. we wont be like old kpop now, its needless to expect hit song, at most its more logical to expect a semi hit. 

I agree, but for example NCT had pretty good streams this year for a bg as well yet knetz are calling them failures in this post so I'm not sure what's the standard of success for them. Only the very top groups that can chart in the top 10-20 are successful and the rest are all flops?

[lighterxx]

7 minutes ago, hynapia said:

I agree, but for example NCT had pretty good streams this year for a bg as well yet knetz are calling them failures in this post so I'm not sure what's the standard of success for them. Only the very top groups that can chart in the top 10-20 are successful and the rest are all flops?

i guess hearing song outside is a sign, maybe no cafe or anything else was playing nct so they are easier to get ignored? there is also a real life perspective of it afterall

[trilobite]

31 minutes ago, Floatie said:

They're rewriting history a little bit with BTS. BTS doing well overseas(mainly in the US) is what lead to their current popularity in Korea, not the other way around. They had a strong core base in Korea but were largely overlooked until they won the paper award and got major press. A huge part of the motivation ARMYs had to win that paper award was to get Korea to finally pay attention.

They are a  National Treasure in Korea because of their accomplishments abroad and spreading hallyu in ways we have never seen before and will never see again. So it makes sense that new groups immediately go for the international bag because that's just BTS' impact.

Anyway, carry on.

this for sure, it's hilarious how everyone pretends that they've liked BTS since they were nugus

the only reason companies are pushing their groups overseas is because that's where they actually get a response  they're literally just following the money, and given how oversaturated the idol market is it just makes sense.

 

[sinnfb]

Besides the Produce effect, there are just too many groups and too many comebacks/debuts. The market is saturated, it's been like that for a while and it's hard for groups (especially boy groups) to have hits. For example, last week I was listening to TXT's Blue Hour and it's such a cute, catchy song that I could definitely see it becoming a hit with the general public if it was released a couple of years ago but it's 2020 and people only know and listen to established groups. 

[hynapia]

13 minutes ago, lighterxx said:

i guess hearing song outside is a sign, maybe no cafe or anything else was playing nct so they are easier to get ignored? there is also a real life perspective of it afterall

No idea because kick it has been charting top 500-1000 on melon basically since it was released nearly a year ago, and NCT U recent songs like make a wish and 90s love have been charting top 200-300 since they were released too. Meanwhile they call tbz a "fucking solid group" domestically when none of their title tracks are charting in the top 1000 on melon so idk what criteria they use to determine which group is a "flop" and which it's popular because charting wise some of the groups they call a flop don't do bad at all.

[hynapia]

2 minutes ago, sinnfb said:

Besides the Produce effect, there are just too many groups and too many comebacks/debuts. The market is saturated, it's been like that for a while and it's hard for groups (especially boy groups) to have hits. For example, last week I was listening to TXT's Blue Hour and it's such a cute, catchy song that I could definitely see it becoming a hit with the general public if it was released a couple of years ago but it's 2020 and people only know and listen to established groups. 

Blue Hour is actually still charting around top 500 on melon and TxT is the only post-2018 bg that charts decently on melon, even after the chart reform. But yea, I agree they could even do better if it wasn't because the GP is only focused in the same few established groups. So imo it's not like the new gen groups have bad music or concepts but there's not much they can do if the GP isn't willing to check most new groups out.

[lighterxx]

2 minutes ago, hynapia said:

No idea because kick it has been charting top 500-1000 on melon basically since it was released nearly a year ago, and NCT U recent songs like make a wish and 90s love have been charting top 200-300 since they were released too. Meanwhile they call tbz a "fucking solid group" domestically when none of their title tracks are charting in the top 1000 on melon so idk what criteria they use to determine which group is a "flop" and which it's popular because charting wise some of the groups they call a flop don't do bad at all.

from what i can see they determine most based on surrounding environment, for example pann users in general are school kids, if their class has alot of tbz stans, it will be seen as popularity. Its very likely nct has a bit older fandom or too separate fandom there, which can explain their views

but afterall... its a theory, i wish we could make our own trending article on pann asking why iroach and how they determine success lol 

[sinnfb]

3 minutes ago, hynapia said:

Blue Hour is actually still charting around top 500 on melon and TxT is the only post-2018 bg that charts decently on melon, even after the chart reform. But yea, I agree they could even do better if it wasn't because the GP is only focused in the same few established groups. So imo it's not like the new gen groups have bad music or concepts but there's not much they can do if the GP isn't willing to check most new groups out.

I'm talking more in the sense of it being a Growl, Mirotic, Lies, Sorry Sorry etc but yeah, the newer boy groups are making good songs and have talented people but it's getting harder and harder for them to have a smash hit, which is unfortunate. 

[hynapia]

12 minutes ago, sinnfb said:

I'm talking more in the sense of it being a Growl, Mirotic, Lies, Sorry Sorry etc but yeah, the newer boy groups are making good songs and have talented people but it's getting harder and harder for them to have a smash hit, which is unfortunate. 

Tbh another Growl, Mirotic, Lies etc would be almost impossible nowadays because if you look at melon, genie etc BTS is literally the only boygroup charting on the top 100 and like other people said, it took them a few years to become as popular in Korea as they're now. Even Winner or BTOB 2020 releases didn't smash the charts despite being examples of bgs that the GP listen to. SVT charts decently too but since the chart reform they have peaked top 50-60 at most and their charting is mostly fandom driven so...

Even most ggs except the very established ones (BP, Twice, RV, Mamamoo) aren't charting that great since the chart reform either.

Edited January 7, 2021 by hynapia

[hynapia]

18 minutes ago, lighterxx said:

from what i can see they determine most based on surrounding environment, for example pann users in general are school kids, if their class has alot of tbz stans, it will be seen as popularity. Its very likely nct has a bit older fandom or too separate fandom there, which can explain their views

but afterall... its a theory, i wish we could make our own trending article on pann asking why iroach and how they determine success lol 

That's a good point because everytime I see a pann post I'm confused when they call groups like SVT, NCT or TxT that can chart on melon top 100 (even after the chart reform) a "flop" but then they're acting as if TBZ were pulling top 10 hits when even after RTK it's not like The Stealer made a lot of noise in k-charts. So at the end it's the same situation than the groups they call a flop: they mostly do well in the physical area more than digital, except that their physical sales come mostly from domestic fans instead of international fans.

[hynapia]

1 hour ago, satoori said:

By the way, not Koreans trying to claim "old school" BTS now...

Back in the days, BTS were not popular domestically either and were constantly dragged by Koreans. It's exactly because of the lack of domestic support BTS started doing more international tours and fanmeets instead. Known for being a group who started relying on sns heavily to communicate with ifans. It's due to BTS international success and achievements later that they've been able to gain recognition from the general public.

What companies are doing nowadays is exactly what Bighit did with BTS. Tho the main difference - BTS attempted to reach out to all international markets where they had fans and where they could enter. Nowadays many companies are putting Western markets specifically the US above everyone. 

Exactly. In fact until 3-4 years ago, EXO was still considered to be above BTS digitally and even physically so even if BTS never flopped horribly, they didn't start to chart DECENTLY in Korea until 2015 with I need U, and they didn't properly blow up until 2017 so I don't blame other companies for trying the same strategy with their groups. I mean, if the GP don't care for majority of new groups (especially bgs) what are they supposed to do? At least if they focus on markets where they have a decent fandom (Japan, China, US, etc) they're making profit which it's better than nothing at all.

[lighterxx]

4 minutes ago, hynapia said:

That's a good point because everytime I see a pann post I'm confused when they call groups like SVT, NCT or TxT that can chart on melon top 100 (even after the chart reform) a "flop" but then they're acting as if TBZ were pulling top 10 hits when even after RTK it's not like The Stealer made a lot of noise in k-charts. So at the end it's the same situation than the groups they call a flop: they mostly do well in the physical area more than digital, except that their physical sales come mostly from domestic fans instead of international fans.

 

thats odd too because svt has a really big kfandom thats why users in this post too, not see them as flop. like you said they had quite outrageous claims even which you probably saw as well, about tbz beating these said groups. I think we shouldnt forget pann users in general is quite young. They have correct ideas in some places, like Produce, did slow down or hinder some groups, but I strongly disagree about some of their 'flop' ideas 

Edited January 7, 2021 by lighterxx

[felidae]

....so they don't like groups who are more popular internationally or pissed at its domestic "I'm great you bad" fandom? The later I can understand but the former........ Why are they so angry? 

[hynapia]

20 minutes ago, lighterxx said:

thats odd too because svt has a really big kfandom thats why users in this post too, not see them as flop. like you said they had quite outrageous claims even which you probably saw as well, about tbz beating these said groups. I think we shouldnt forget pann users in general is quite young. They have correct ideas in some places, like Produce, did slow down or hinder some groups, but I strongly disagree about some of their 'flop' ideas 

even if they're young groups like svt, nct and txt have a big teenage fanbase so idgi. They're using the charting stuff to call certain groups flops but at the same time saying tbz is popular domestically when it's not like they chart like bts, exo, btob, winner or even like svt/nct

[satoori]

4 hours ago, hynapia said:

Agree that ggs have always had bigger hits and more GP  recognition but still, during second gen there was quite a few bgs even from mid-tier companies that had actual digital hits, such as Beast, MBLAQ, Infinite, Teen Top, B1A4, Block B, etc. They weren't as big as Big3 bgs like DBSK, SuJu, Big Bang, 2PM etc but they were still able to chart very well and get public recognition. Nowadays BTS is basically the only active bg that have actual hits. Others can chart decently but not enough to top the charts or even being top 10-20.

As for ggs, there's also quite a few that are popular overseas but not so much in Korea, such as Dreamcatcher, Loona, Everglow and Secret Number. But it's understandable because the established top and mid-tier ggs are still pretty strong and the public isn't checking out for recent groups aside from Big3 ggs like ITZY or Aespa.

But still, I don't think groups that have a big i-fandom and sell millions of albums can be considered flops just because they're unpopular domestically. As long you're selling well and making money that's not a flop at all.

True, mid tier groups back then were able to push a few hits out before they peaked and started to slowly decline. K-companies also marketed groups differently too. Looking back, there was always 1-2 members doing well on variety shows or other activities, establishing their individual brand - which directly impacted the group public recognition too.

You're right the public isn't' taking the time to check out other groups. And as I said above, companies are not helping either. One of the reasons of trying to develop a "it" girl was to help the group's public recognition. But nowadays companies don't seem to care about that so much anymore. 

I agree they're not flops. Groups are actually doing a lot better internationally overall.The international Kpop community has grown and physical sales have increased. It's a shame idol groups can't tour and meet their fans due to the current situation.

 

3 hours ago, hynapia said:

Exactly. In fact until 3-4 years ago, EXO was still considered to be above BTS digitally and even physically so even if BTS never flopped horribly, they didn't start to chart DECENTLY in Korea until 2015 with I need U, and they didn't properly blow up until 2017 so I don't blame other companies for trying the same strategy with their groups. I mean, if the GP don't care for majority of new groups (especially bgs) what are they supposed to do? At least if they focus on markets where they have a decent fandom (Japan, China, US, etc) they're making profit which it's better than nothing at all.

Yep, EXO was above BTS for years. Not just EXO, ..Big Bang, SHI-BE-IN..

Adding on - while 2015 is when they first started getting noticed by kfans they were still dragged by many kfans. Accused of sajaegi and plagiarism. But they blew up with the Kpop community in Korea in 2016 with the release of Blood Sweat Tears and Fire + later winning Daesangs for the same year. Nonetheless, yes 2017 is when the general public started to notice them more.

I agree, a loyal fandom is a lot better then the fickle public.

[le.ah]

like, mate... is funny how most of you and knetz continue using Melon as the ultimate gauger to determine whether the group is successful in korea or not. Since melon has been losing space in the market for years. And it will lose even more with the entry of spotify in Korea this year ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 12/20/2020 at 3:40 AM, satoori said:

02/2016 [x]
Melon (60%+)
Genie (10%)
Bugs + Others (?)

03/2020 [x]
Melon (40%)
Genie (25%)
Flo (20%)
Vibe (3% +)
Bugs (?)

05/2020 [x]
Melon (38.6%)
Genie (25.7%)
Flo (17.7)
Youtube Music (6.3%)
Vibe (4.9%)
Bugs (3.5%)
Others (3.3%)

06/2020 [x]
Melon  (36.8%)
Genie (24.8%)
FLO (17.8%)
YouTube Music (9%)
VIBE  (5.6%)
Bugs (?)

 

[satoori]

1 minute ago, le.ah said:

like, mate... is funny how most of you and knetz continue using Melon as the ultimate gauger to determine whether the group is successful in korea or not. Since melon has been losing space in the market for years. And it will lose even more with the entry of spotify in Korea this year ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

true, melon is gradually losing its relevance lol~!!

 

however currently melon is still a decent sample size to measure what the public is listening to...especially since the new reform takes out the inflation of mass streaming by fandoms.

 

[hynapia]

5 minutes ago, le.ah said:

like, mate... is funny how most of you and knetz continue using Melon as the ultimate gauger to determine whether the group is successful in korea or not. Since melon has been losing space in the market for years. And it will lose even more with the entry of spotify in Korea this year ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Totally agree. Even the top 10 songs on melon these days have 200-300k unique listeners AT MOST. I heard Koreans nowadays even use youtube more to listen and stream songs than melon or genie. And that not even mention the rest of k-charts that barely make 5-10% of the digital market.

[le.ah]

Just now, satoori said:

true, melon is gradually losing its relevance lol~!!

 

however currently melon is still a decent sample size to measure what the public is listening to...especially since the new reform takes out the inflation of mass streaming by fandoms.

 

I don't think it can be considered alone a decent sample. Maybe using Melon+Genie

And beyond that, Melon is not reliable. Too much sageji scandals in their bag 

[hynapia]

8 minutes ago, satoori said:

True, mid tier groups back then were able to push a few hits out before they peaked and started to slowly decline. K-companies also marketed groups differently too. Looking back, there was always 1-2 members doing well on variety shows or other activities, establishing their individual brand - which directly impacted the group public recognition too.

You're right the public isn't' taking the time to check out other groups. And as I said above, companies are not helping either. One of the reasons of trying to develop a "it" girl was to help the group's public recognition. But nowadays companies don't seem to care about that so much anymore. 

I agree they're not flops. Groups are actually doing a lot better internationally overall.The international Kpop community has grown and physical sales have increased. It's a shame idol groups can't tour and meet their fans due to the current situation.

 

Yep, EXO was above BTS for years. Not just EXO, ..Big Bang, SHI-BE-IN..

Adding on - while 2015 is when they first started getting noticed by kfans they were still dragged by many kfans. Accused of sajaegi and plagiarism. But they blew up with the Kpop community in Korea in 2016 with the release of Blood Sweat Tears and Fire + later winning Daesangs for the same year. Nonetheless, yes 2017 is when the general public started to notice them more.

I agree, a loyal fandom is a lot better then the fickle public.

Agree. Back in 2nd and early 3rd gen idol groups were everywhere in variety shows, dramas, etc so they were more exposed to the general public. Nowadays they barely go to popular shows that the GP watches, aside from promoting a few weeks in music shows or going to idol shows that only some kpop fans watch like idol room or weekly idol.

But still, I think the GP atm is just not interested in checking out for new groups in general. I mean, some groups have it members but they still don't seem to be able to make the GP care about their respective groups, kinda like Eunwoo and Rowoon's case. They have a lot of public popularity but Astro and SF9 haven't really had any smash hit. In comparison during second gen and early 3rd gen, it members like Suzy, Hyuna, Nichkhun, Sungjae etc succeed in making the GP interested in their respective groups.

[Blood Orange]

they make some points, but having international success has given groups another option to find a way to get somewhere. like I feel we’re getting to see groups grow and utilize their potential that would have been buried if they only stayed in Korea.

however, having popularity in Korea offers the possibility to continue to work once they’re passed their prime. internationally, there is nothing there to fall back on once everyone has moved on from you. if that makes sense.

personally, I would have loved to been able to see my former bias group achieve more international success, because they would have been able to make more strides and used their potential which is now being wasted.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Blood Orange