[NAVER] There would be no BTS without Lee Soo Man

[drakan]

Seo Taiji and LSM essentially the founders of modern kpop.  Seo Taiji with the music style and LSM with the trainee system.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, chaiyya said:

How could we forget Seo Taiji when he gave us the legendary 25th Anniversary concert?

exactly 

[Nana686]

their fans need to chill they will bow to any big seniors that walk past them , deep down they know some groups paved the way for them 

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

53 minutes ago, chaiyya said:

THAT NO ONE SAW. And that's the point. They made absolutely zero impact. I'd never heard of them before consuming Korean dramas. No one around me has ever heard their name. And yet these same people know BTS.

Showing up on TV a couple of times does not mean you've entered American consciousness. It means you appeared on TV a couple of times and no one bothered to remember your name.

I guess I'm no one then LOL. How do you know "no one" saw it and that it made "zero" impact? Your perspective is so self-centered. "I" never heard of them. No one around "ME" has heard of them. Sounds like a lot of me, me, me. Have you ever considered that you're not the designated spokesperson for Kpop's American impact? Sure, Kpop was not mainstream back then (it's arguably still not mainstream - IMO it just has a larger cult following) but the fact that SNSD was on David Letterman and Live with Kelly and Ryan, had their MV playing in Times Square, performed at Madison Square Garden, and won Video of the Year at the YouTube Music Awards in 2011-2013 are not things that can be just thrown out the window. In fact, I know BTS (particularly V) are pretty big SNSD fans. And that's just SNSD. What about Wonder Girls, 2NE1, Big Bang, TVXQ!, Super Junior? Do you even know who they are? I'm pretty sure if you asked BTS themselves whether these other groups before them played a role in their success, they would agree.

This whole "paved the way" conversation is so old, tired, and played out. Nobody really gives a flying f about this other than Kpop Twitter stans. There's no objective answer to this and at the end of the day, it largely comes down to opinion. If you want mine, I would say that Rome was not build in a day, and neither was the Hallyu wave in America. It took baby steps to begin with, others placing down bricks and taking down trees, clearing a path and making one. And when the walls were chipped away enough, one group was finally able to smash through. I'm not trying to invalidate BTS's own merits by saying this - I'm simply acknowledging that others that came before them were also important in taking those initial steps. I think that's the problem a lot of other fandoms have with ARMYs - it's that your revisionist historians. Probably because many of you became fans in the past few years. When you compare your perspective to those that had grown up with Kpop like me and others, it comes off as very shallow and narrow-minded.

[panqueque]

I remember a lot of people liking Bigbang, 2ne1, SNSD and Suju, even BigBang got this MTV documentary in english. I don't know if people remember  B.A.P was in a 1D mv.  BTS deserves everything they work for but why is so hard to understand that other groups tried before? LSM literally made the standard training system that EVERY company uses, even the Japanese market is changing to a "kpop" approach. Say what u want but the true MVP here is LSM.

Edited December 23, 2020 by panqueque

[starxlight]

Lsm plagiarizing the whole idol concept from Japan and claiming to be the first one who invented is nothing new. He is a thief with no shame.

None of his groups have the impact bts have internationally. He saw what bts did and started the plagiariSM again by creating a recycled fail mess called super m. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by starxlight

[starxlight]

7 minutes ago, panqueque said:

I remember a lot of people liking Bigbang, 2ne1, SNSD and Suju, even BigBang got this MTV documentary in english. I don't know if people remember was in B.A.P a 1D mv.  BTS deserves everything they work for but why is so hard to understand that other groups tried before? LSM literally made the standard training system that EVERY company uses, even the Japanese market is changing to a "kpop" approach. Say what u want but the true MVP here is LSM.

You're right. Other groups tried but failed. Bts didn't even try  but succeeded. 

[chaiyya]

4 minutes ago, jeong jaehyuns boyfriend said:

I guess I'm no one then LOL. How do you know "no one" saw it and that it made "zero" impact? Your perspective is so self-centered. "I" never heard of them. No one around "ME" has heard of them. Sounds like a lot of me, me, me. Have you ever considered that you're not the designated spokesperson for Kpop's American impact? Sure, Kpop was not mainstream back then (it's arguably still not mainstream - IMO it just has a larger cult following) but the fact that SNSD was on David Letterman and Live with Kelly and Ryan, had their MV playing in Times Square, performed at Madison Square Garden, and won Video of the Year at the YouTube Music Awards in 2011-2013 are not things that can be just thrown out the window. In fact, I know BTS (particularly V) are pretty big SNSD fans. And that's just SNSD. What about Wonder Girls, 2NE1, Big Bang, TVXQ!, Super Junior? Do you even know who they are? I'm pretty sure if you asked BTS themselves whether these other groups before them played a role in their success, they would agree.

This whole "paved the way" conversation is so old, tired, and played out. Nobody really gives a flying f about this other than Kpop Twitter stans. There's no objective answer to this and at the end of the day, it largely comes down to opinion. If you want mine, I would say that Rome was not build in a day, and neither was the Hallyu wave in America. It took baby steps to begin with, others placing down bricks and taking down trees, clearing a path and making one. And when the walls were chipped away enough, one group was finally able to smash through. I'm not trying to invalidate BTS's own merits by saying this - I'm simply acknowledging that others that came before them were also important in taking those initial steps. I think that's the problem a lot of other fandoms have with ARMYs - it's that your revisionist historians. Probably because many of you became fans in the past few years. When you compare your perspective to those that had grown up with Kpop like me and others, it comes off as very shallow and narrow-minded.

Go poll a random pool of Americans with no ties to Korean media and see if they've ever heard of any of these groups that many say helped BTS to be where they are. I was the GP that would've heard about them if they were popular. Because SNSD was on David Letterman, did that make it easier for them to book Ellen and Jimmy Kimmel in 2017? No. Did Gangnam Style being a meme song make it easier for BTS to get their songs on the radio? Absolutely not.

These groups tried to make it big in the US and failed. Nothing they've done in the US has made anything easier for BTS. And that's just facts.

There's nothing revisionist that ARMY is trying to promote here. We're making the case that NOTHING anyone before them has done has made it any easier for them to be in the place in the US they are right now.

 

 

 

[panqueque]

1 minute ago, starxlight said:

You're right. Other groups tried but failed. Bts didn't even try  but succeeded. 

BTS tried as hard as any group. They started going on tour since 2014 internationally with little success but they kept trying. I think if I'm not wrong the whole BTS PR was they started from the bottom?

[starxlight]

1 minute ago, panqueque said:

BTS tried as hard as any group. They started going on tour since 2014 internationally with little success but they kept trying. I think if I'm not wrong the whole BTS PR was they started from the bottom?

Every kpop group that had alot of fans were having tours in America. Soju, exo, bigbang, bap none succeeded. 

[RIPHaldir]

Thanks lee so man for plagiarizing japans idol system and for every negative idol strereotype that exist to this day! Dont worry, kpop fans can bicker and companies can try to take credit but the idols know the truth - and in the words of Psy, Rain, Twice, Sunmi and more... thank you BTS

[Your Biggest Fan]

2 hours ago, melancholic autumn said:

It's really telling the age of some of these people on this thread that they think BTS invented Kpop when Kpop has been around since the 90s. There's a famous quote by Isaac Newton that goes "If I have seen further, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants," meaning that he was influenced by those before him, and the quote can be greatly applied to Kpop since each generation was previously influenced by the previous generation. And just like every Kpop artist, BTS probably have some veteran K-music artists that they looked up to and were inspired by (Jungkook for example, is most known for being an IU fanboy). 

 

you're forgetting that SNSD made a few American TV appearances in 2012-2013 before BTS even debuted. 

And you're forgetting that Wonder Girls made their debut American T.V. debut in 2009. There were still others before SM's acts that made it on to the American entertainment radar. BoA made her debut in 2009, but Rain made an appearance on the Colbert Show in 2008.

It doesn't negate the fact that LSM is obsessed with BTS and BigHit, and is salty that none of his acts truly broke into the American market first. His company wasn't the only one trying to get their acts on western radio. JYP had Min in the US training and releasing some songs from 2002-2008. 

And if it's that each previous generation influences the next, then who should BoA should be thanking? Who should S.E.S. and H.O.T. be thanking?

[namidaone]

Never thought I'd see the day that Knetz acknowledge Jpop JYP YG and Psy's impact 
Anyway if there was no Lee Soo Man there would still be the DSP CEO, 
who cofounded Sobangcha, the "prototype for future K-pop groups such as H.O.T, Sechskies and S.E.S."   [x]
 

That CEO also created Sech Skies, who was HOT's rival and eventually moved from DSP to YG and outlasted HOT,  
although their fandom took a hit after Kang Sunghoon's embezzlement controversy. 
sidenote: Kang Sung Hoon's embezzlement and fraud case was dismissed by the prosecution due to lack of evidence. [x] 

[felidae]

And there'd be no kpop groups, his cowcash included, without Seo Taiji.

I'm not sure how this Grand Lee SooMan 선생님 want to claim so but maybe someone can trace BigHit CEO/owner history to SM, if any? 

[sakurahanabira]

47 minutes ago, Your Biggest Fan said:

And you're forgetting that Wonder Girls made their debut American T.V. debut in 2009. There were still others before SM's acts that made it on to the American entertainment radar. BoA made her debut in 2009, but Rain made an appearance on the Colbert Show in 2008.

It doesn't negate the fact that LSM is obsessed with BTS and BigHit, and is salty that none of his acts truly broke into the American market first. His company wasn't the only one trying to get their acts on western radio. JYP had Min in the US training and releasing some songs from 2002-2008. 

And if it's that each previous generation influences the next, then who should BoA should be thanking? Who should S.E.S. and H.O.T. be thanking?

I didn't forget about Wonder Girls, nor did I forget about Rain or BoA (and being a Jumping BoA I'm full aware of her attempt to break into the US market because I was in my freshman year of college when she released Eat You Up), I was just using SNSD as an example of Kpop artists who have tested the US market before BTS even existed because the user I quoted acted as if no Kpop group before BTS even got TV appearances. I don't know why you're acting like I'm some Gen Z who recently discovered Kpop when I was listening to Kpop ever since 2006. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by melancholic autumn

[sakurahanabira]

2 hours ago, micropachycephalosaurus said:

no i'm not forgetting  i never said bts was the first kpop group to appear on a us tv-show. i said: "after bts' success more and more kpop groups..." because that happened after bts' success, not in 2012-2013.

No, you said:

after bts' success in the us more and more kpop groups have gotten american interviews, videos, tv appearances etc + friday releases + the social artist chart is now full of kpop groups after bts got awards for it, when before there were none etc. 

The bolded part is false when there were plenty of Kpop artists who have gotten American TV appearances and interviews prior to 2013 before BTS even existed. 

 

[Jikrytae]

3 hours ago, chaiyya said:

Showing up on TV a couple of times does not mean you've entered American consciousness.

 

Yes. That's precisely the problem with all those interviews and such that are being used as evidence of BTS helping other Korean acts. They all make an appearance or two in American media and then they're never heard from again. Just like all the acts that preceded BTS. So in the end, they're not leading the way for much of anything.

Of course, I contend that even BTS themselves are like the Avatar of music. They reach the top of the charts, make a bunch of money, but ultimately leave no lasting impact. It's the inevitable conclusion of being so niche. BTS are "mainstream" while still existing almost entirely outside of the actual mainstream. It would be very difficult for them to help other Korean acts in any meaningful way from such a position. 

Yes, I know, I'll see myself out before the dislikes come rolling in.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jikrytae

[chaiyya]

3 minutes ago, Jikrytae said:

Yes. That's precisely the problem with all those interviews and such that are being used as evidence of BTS helping other Korean acts. They all make an appearance or two in American media and then they're never heard from again. Just like all the acts that preceded BTS. So in the end, they're not leading the way for much of anything.

Of course, I contend that even BTS themselves are like the Avatar of music. They reach the top of the charts, make a bunch of money, but ultimately leave no lasting impact. It's the inevitable conclusion of being so niche. BTS are "mainstream" while still existing almost entirely outside of the actual mainstream. It would be very difficult for them to help other Korean acts in any meaningful way from such a position. 

Yes, I know, I'll see myself out before the dislikes come rolling in.

I don't agree that BTS will leave no lasting impact, but I do agree that it remains to be seen what other people will do with what BTS have given them. BTS has certainly made it easier for them. Time will tell if anyone can profit from it.

[Angel_Nessa]

8 hours ago, A Hamster Named Loneliness said:

technically speaking, there would've been no BTS without Seo Taiji since he was the one who pioneered k-pop. Even 1st gen groups like H.O.T, Shinhwa, SES, Fin.KL wouldn't have existed without Seo Taiji. LSM, JYP, and YG wouldn't have started their companies if it hadn't been for Seo Taiji. 

But you can't deny that BoA was the one who paved the way for kpop idols to perform in Japan. Before her no Korean artists were allowed to perform in Japan. 

Different artists paved the way for different reasons. BoA and SNSD tested the U.S waters and then BTS broke into it (although there are still lots of people who still don't like BTS, you can see it on reddit threads like "what don't you understand the popularity of" that pop up every now and then), although as the user above me said, I wouldn't consider BTS as paving the way for other kpop artists in the US when most people still don't acknowledge kpop groups. 

(and this "BTS-pop" is a load of horseshit, everyone except 12 year old Twitter stans know that BTS is still considered kpop here in the states). 

edit: and let me guess the ones who reacted with the clown emote are ARMYs who don't even know about kpop's beginnings, you guys are REALLY showing your age and/or ignorance. This is why people can't take ARMYs seriously. 

Seo Taiji & the boys were K-HIP HOP and not K-POP. SM was the one that invested a lot in making popular the POP music, flower boys and fanservices.

YG was the only the company that may not have existed without Seo Taiji lol SM and JYP had different music styles and they paved their own way to fame.

JYP became popular with his retro style and was influenced a lot by the American R&B/SOUL music market, besides, especially for his male groups, JYP bet on idols with great bodies while SM bet on flower boys.   

  

9 hours ago, Tarted said:

Hey, I know BTS reached a point of fame that none kpop group has before... But you guys trying to deny the importance of previous gens groups are kinda direspectful...
I only knew BTS since their debut (even attended to their mini-concert in Brazil back in 2014) because I already knew Suju, SNSD, 2NE1, Big Bang and others... 
So, yes, it's unecessary to LSM try to claim this right now, but YES, previous gens had a HUGE importance on starting to spread the kpop world wide

 

Back in the days we had a lot of groups/solo singers reaching a point that none Korean group/solo singer had reached before. For example, when Wonder Girls had their American tour, it was the 1st time for a Korean group to do it, or when their song "Nobody" entered on Billboard HOT 100 was also a 1st for K-groups. Rain was the 1st Korean artist and 1st K-solo singer to have a concert at Tokyo Dome (Japan was a very important market for KPOP at that time).

TVXQ pushed KPOP out of Korea's border, they were called the gods of the East. 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, jeong jaehyuns boyfriend said:

I don't know why you have so many clown emojis when it's true.

The Hallyu wave started way before BTS. BTS may have taken it to new heights and achieved a level of success that no other group before them had, but many other Kpop groups, including the ones you mentioned (Super Junior, SNSD, 2NE1, Big Bang), laid the foundation for Kpop to be known globally.

Maybe it's because so many BTS fans are younger and newer, but as someone that was a Kpop fan since 2007 when SNSD debuted, I think older Kpop fans have a different point of reference and are able to better contextualize BTS's success with other Kpop groups before them. 

you're right. 

It'd have been harder for BTS to become well-known globally without riding the Hallyu wave that had started years before their debut. 

 

3 hours ago, A Hamster Named Loneliness said:

let's face it, ARMYs will dislike any post that isnt praising BTS to the heavens. My post got 2 clown emotes just because I mentioned that Seo Taiji was technically responsible for kpop's beginnings and paving the way for ALL kpop artists (seriously, do they REALLY think Big Hit Entertainment or any other kpop companies would've been created if Seo Taiji didnt take the first step?) and how kpop wouldnt be where it is today without him, and also for mentioning that different artists/groups also paved their own paths (like BoA for Japan) and that BTS is still kpop and that there's no such thing as BTS-pop. 

YG was the only company that wouldn't have been created without Seo Taiji & the boys. When Hyun Suk created YG ent, he got some attention from the media because he was one of the boys.

Seo Taiji & the boys were active from 1992 to 1996. SM ent was created in 1995 and they launched their 1st boygroup HOT in 1996. HOT's concept was very different from  Seo Taiji & the boys. JYP became the producer of his 1st boygroup G.O.D in 1996, and opened JYPent in 1997. 

 while Seo Taiji & the boys were a K-HIP HOP group, JYPent invested in retro style (JYP, Wonder Girls), beastly idols (2PM), ballad group (2AM) and powerful women (Miss A), SM invested in flower boys and girlgroups with cute concepts. YG invested in K-HIP HOP for boygroups and girlgroups.

2 hours ago, chaiyya said:

THAT NO ONE SAW. And that's the point. They made absolutely zero impact. I'd never heard of them before consuming Korean dramas. No one around me has ever heard their name. And yet these same people know BTS.

Showing up on TV a couple of times does not mean you've entered American consciousness. It means you appeared on TV a couple of times and no one bothered to remember your name.

 

Just because you didn't watch, it doesn't mean nobody did lol. Rain had a Discovery documentary, Wonder Girls had a Nickelodeon movie called the School Gyrls, what was an impressive achievement for a KPOP group. Girls Generation appeared on a American TV show. I know young people now take these achievements for granted, but at that time, all of these achievements were all on Korean headlines for days. 

Besides that, K-general public used to know all the members of all of these popular 1st-2nd gen. groups, but they don't know all the BTS members. They know the name of the group and that they're popular overseas, but when it comes to group+individual popularity, old groups are still on top.    

 

1 hour ago, panqueque said:

I remember a lot of people liking Bigbang, 2ne1, SNSD and Suju, even BigBang got this MTV documentary in english. I don't know if people remember was in B.A.P a 1D mv.  BTS deserves everything they work for but why is so hard to understand that other groups tried before? LSM literally made the standard training system that EVERY company uses, even the Japanese market is changing to a "kpop" approach. Say what u want but the true MVP here is LSM.

LSM created an amazing and efficient training system, but it was not copied by all KPOP company.

LSM launched his 1st boygroup in 1996, and the 1st girlgroup in 1997. In 1997 we had Sech Kies (Daesung ent.) and Baby VOX (DR media), both were very popular. Impossible to copy SM training system in 1 year and debut a group lol

1 hour ago, starxlight said:

You're right. Other groups tried but failed. Bts didn't even try  but succeeded. 

what???????? they had great achievements overseas and in Korea. G.O.D was a million seller only being popular in Korea. Big Bang, 2PM, SuJu, TVXQ, SNS, 2ne1 and many others introduced KPOP to the world, especially to other Asian countries. Wonder Girls was the 1st Korean artist to enter on Billboard HOT100 with 'Nobody'.  Rain was the 1st K-artist to win a MTV award (when MTV was a top TV channel). Even GOT7, 2 years after debut, had a district in Thailand and a special event with local celebrities arriving in limosines to attend their special fanmeeting there. The difference is that all 1st and 2nd generation groups didn't have the internet power and twitter trending topics to hyper then, so they needed to work their a** off to become  famous and popular overseas. also nowadays many award ceremonies are more opened to foreign artists than they were years ago.  

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, melancholic autumn said:

No, you said:

 

 

The bolded part is false when there were plenty of Kpop artists who have gotten American TV appearances and interviews prior to 2013 before BTS even existed. 

 

that's part of a different sentence?? on the social artist chart there were none 

"the social artist chart is now full of kpop groups after bts got awards for it, when before there were none"

Edited December 23, 2020 by Guest

[chaiyya]

2 minutes ago, Angel_Nessa said:

Just because you didn't watch, it doesn't mean nobody did lol. Rain had a Discovery documentary, Wonder Girls had a Nickelodeon movie called the School Gyrls, what was an impressive achievement for a KPOP group. Girls Generation appeared on a American TV show. I know young people now take these achievements for granted, but at that time, all of these achievements were all on Korean headlines for days. 

Besides that, K-general public used to know all the members of all of these popular 1st-2nd gen. groups, but they don't know all the BTS members. They know the name of the group and that they're popular overseas, but when it comes to group+individual popularity, old groups are still on top.    

 

 

I'm not a young person, but thanks for the compliment. And which of those things helped BTS get where they are now? That's the entire point of this discussion. That a few Korean musical acts touching down in America have done nothing to help BTS get to where they are now in the US.

[Angel_Nessa]

double post

Edited December 23, 2020 by Angel_Nessa

[Angel_Nessa]

1 hour ago, chaiyya said:

I'm not a young person, but thanks for the compliment. And which of those things helped BTS get where they are now? That's the entire point of this discussion. That a few Korean musical acts touching down in America have done nothing to help BTS get to where they are now in the US.

In 2012, the 1^st KCON USA happened. Popular K-artists (4Minute, B.A.P, Exo-M, Nu'est, VIXX, and G.NA) attended the event that attracted about 20,000 people. The following year, in the 2nd KCON’s lineup there were Exo (K & M), 2AM, Teen Top, f(x), G-Dragon, Crayon Pop, Dynamic Duo. Thanks to all these popular artists, KCON became a super popular event.

In 2014, KCON received a huge media covered: NBC news, Fusion TV, local news, Mnet America (which had many episodes showing footage of the stars' arrival at the airport in Los Angeles, backstage activities, and the weekend's panels, fan meetings, food stands). For 2014 lineup more popular K-artists were invited  B1A4, CNBLUE, G-Dragon, Girls' Generation, IU, Jung Joon-young, Spica, Teen Top, and VIXX. Among them, there was a newbie group called BTS that was invited for 1^st time. KCON 2014 had an attendance of 42,000 people.

This is only one example how the 1^st and 2nd generation paved the way for BTS.

Just as a comparative, in July 2014, BTS had their 1st USA concert where 200 people attended, the following month (August 2014) during KCON about 20,000 people watched BTS live performance. A lot of people watching = fandom growing. 

[chaiyya]

36 minutes ago, Angel_Nessa said:

In 2012, the 1^st KCON USA happened. Popular K-artists (4Minute, B.A.P, Exo-M, Nu'est, VIXX, and G.NA) attended the event that attracted about 20,000 people. The following year, in the 2nd KCON’s lineup there were Exo (K & M), 2AM, Teen Top, f(x), G-Dragon, Crayon Pop, Dynamic Duo. Thanks to all these popular artists, KCON became a super popular event.

In 2014, KCON received a huge media covered: NBC news, Fusion TV, local news, Mnet America (which had many episodes showing footage of the stars' arrival at the airport in Los Angeles, backstage activities, and the weekend's panels, fan meetings, food stands). For 2014 lineup more popular K-artists were invited  B1A4, CNBLUE, G-Dragon, Girls' Generation, IU, Jung Joon-young, Spica, Teen Top, and VIXX. Among them, there was a newbie group called BTS that was invited for 1^st time. KCON 2014 had an attendance of 42,000 people.

This is only one example how the 1^st and 2nd generation paved the way for BTS.

Just as a comparative, in July 2014, BTS had their 1st USA concert where 200 people attended, the following month (August 2014) during KCON about 20,000 people watched BTS live performance. A lot of people watching = fandom growing. 

And how did any of that contribute to BTS becoming mainstream in the US? KCON is for a very niche audience.

Yeah, they gained some fans among people who were already Kpop fans. Where did the people who had zero connection to Kpop come from? How did KCON help them get invited to perform at award shows? How did KCON help them book late-night televison? How did KCON help them get the paltry radio play they've managed to get?

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by chaiyya

[Yknocker]

By that logic, there would be no BTS without Lee Jieun, because IU ended the complete domination of SNSD , and fought EXO to a standstill showing EXO could be beaten. So there would be no BTS without Lee Jieun.