[pannchoa] SUGA'S JIM JONES CONTROVERSY RIGHT NOW + TRENDING #1 OVERSEAS

[nefhilim]

t.n: the post is very long, we will paraphrase

First of all, I'm not an Army nor an anti. I'm a Korean Canadian.
The Jim Jones' sample that appeared in Suga's "What Do You Think" is from one of the biggest pseudo-religion sect leaders that all North America is aware of. It's like how Koreans all know Lee Man Hee (founder of Shincheonji church), everyone in N.A. knows about Jim Jones.
I learned about this person and his incident at school.
ㄴIf you search up for Jim Jones or Jones Town on Google or Naver, you'll be able to find all the atrocities he's committed. If you know nothing about this person, I suggest that you learn about him.. He's seriously not even human
ㄴI can't tell if Suga knew who Jim Jones is when using the sample, but he's registered as the producer, so just the fact of writing these lyrics is problematic.
ㄴAnyone listening to the song would get the sermon/speech vibes, but there are fans around the world and domestically who are listening to his song. If he hasn't think about the potential influence he could've had on them, I have nothing to say.
ㄴI looked it up and I saw that international fans already saw a documentary of him last September in the hotel scene where he was making the song. At that time, fans all praised him saying "How could he come up with this way to use the sermon? He's really a genius" "he's so hip and cool". Damn...
Now that the song has been released, just listening to the voice, you can tell that it's from Jim Jones.
ㄴIt's already disappointing and it's pissing me off that he used Jim Jones' sermon as a sample. But currently, there's a case with the US police (if you don't know, look it up) with black people's human rights that is angering and saddening people right now. For the people who are wondering what's the relationship with this and the other situation:
ㄴ70% of the believers who died in the mass suicide of Jim Jones were black people. Most of them were women and children. Jim Jones made this believers believe that he would bring a better life to black people and after the slaughter, he killed himself (this is a huge overview of the event, I'm worried about giving you the real event which is even more horrible)
ㄴAnyways, this happened in the US and he's using Jim Jones sample is obviously problematic. This isn't about attacking Suga maliciously and gathering the antis. His own fans have been disappointed and are criticizing this situation, so you guys realize that this is an actual issue?
ㄴSome fans are claiming that it's common to use samples for diss tracks, but first of all, this is not it. It's not a common thing to do and using a sampled sermon in a diss track is just dumbfounding. The people who are claiming this are probably insane. These people deserve as much criticism as Suga and the producers who participated in this song, they're one and the same
ㄴAnd just because it's common doesn't mean that it makes it any better. Whether Suga and the producers knew or not, they're the same as the people who previously used Jim Jones' sample as "art". Stop shielding them.
ㄴIf you listen to the song, this is just a song about flexing, so why is there a need to use a sermon? I don't see the relevancy at all, and if it was relevant, please let me know. If it's not relevant, it's okay to just say that he used it to look cool too
ㄴI didn't write this in order to drag this issue into a thread, but I want Koreans to know how severe this situation is. [...] And I'm saying it once again, I'm not a fan nor an anti. I'm just someone who knows a bit about this situation
[...]
ㄴPeople keep telling me that this isn't a song about flexing, so I'll take that. I'm not writing this post because the flexing part is important. If this isn't a song about flexing, it's my mistake for misunderstanding it. But it's not like he didn't use the sample.
[...]
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

learn more about Jim Jones here

 

post response:

[+855][-107]

original post: here

 

1. [+429, -23] No but why are people calling this a troll post? 

 

2. [+419, -24] People are saying that a lot of rappers used it already, what are you sayingㅋㅋ  Even though this was used as quotations, the lyrics are still worth criticizing. No one has ever used a sermon to diss their haters, to be honest, he's the first one who has used his voice like thatㅋㅋㅋㅋ And just look at the content in the lyrics, do you think he's in his right mind to use a pseudo religious cult leader who killed over 900 people in order to draw reference to hating his antis?ㄷㄷ

 

3. [+414, -24] So there are still kids thinking that this is a troll post.. You guys are indeed just a bunch of chodings? If you were to compare with our country, it would be Lee Manhee, and for Japan, Aum Shinrikyo

 

4. [+260, -3] Imagine Eminem or Kanye West using Chun Doohwan's (de facto leader during Gwangju massacre) of voice when he was blaming the people of Gwangju for their uprising in their songs' introduction and goes "shot shot shot f*cker f*cker f*cker" everyone would be hating on them. Imagine them saying stuff like "I have a lot of money and my wife is Kim Kardashian are you jealous? "I have a 30 billion dollars worth of mansion, are you jealous?" would you guys like that? This is the same thing, but you guys just don't want to understandㅋㅋㅋ

 

5. [+226, -1] Right now the foreigners who are living in the countries mentioned are all criticizing this situation, so you think that it's okay for Koreans, who know nothing about the situation, to shield him? What's the difference between the sensitive bugs from Japan who are looking at our country? (t/n: implying Japanese will try to defend themselves without knowing the whole situation)

 

6. [+217, -5] ㅋㅋ Do you really think that people couldn't understand Suga's intentions behind his songs and that anyone could tell he's criticizing the situation when listening to the song? Of course not.. He used this incident giving an iconic meaning to it, and this is already problematic to start with.. 

 

7. [+197, -21] He got caught in his own trap

 

 

[enter-talk] WHAT DID SUGA THINK TO DO SOMETHING THIS STUPID? 

 

 

Even the I-roaches aren't shielding him on this one, and asking him to apologize. To be honest, isn't this impossible to shield? 

This is the same as using Chun Doohwan in a song

 

post response:

[+419][-97]

original post: here

 

1. [+176, -15] Any other singers would've been bashed by the general public, but why aren't we even able to guess his intentions behind the song?ㅋㅋㅋ  What an amazing artist

 

2. [+130, -14] So he used a mass murderer to criticize his haters? Can you use such a traumatic event that lightly? And the Army are saying that he's using this to show it's rubbish? So why did he think it was cool to do it? 

"I'm going crazyㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ "Drinking the kool aid" is an expression that originates from the Jim Jones' pseudo religious believers drinking poisoned kool-aid and committing mass suicide. It's the same meaning as "Many people will like or blindly indulge into faith blindly" ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

ㄴTaking the speech of that pseudo-religion's leader murderer and using it in his beat is just driving me crazy 

 

3. [+110, -7] No but why are people calling this a troll post? Why are people shielding this? 

 

4. [+81, -35] If someone was to repeat their own controversies, it has to be Bangtan.. 

 

5. [+77, -10] Bangtan and Army just look like a cult themselves.. If their bias makes a mistake, they're going to rush into making PDFs, they're always burying everything down everyday

 

6. [+67, -2] Those famous BTS I-roaches aren't even shielding them, so you know for sure that this is a f*cking problemㅋㅋ 

Edited May 30, 2020 by nefhilim

[nefhilim]

Not trying to defend him but being objective in this... yes, the use of that speech was wrong in many ways, but maybe he have a point, a specific reason to put it into the song. Yoongi is not a fool, neither Big Hit. Many artists have sampled or referred to Jim Jones in their songs, but now that is a BTS scandal, people overreact. I'm a person of color and have family close to the Jim Jones case btw.

 

edit: I have reflected more on all this problem. Yes, it was wrong that he put that speech in the song and now I see that it could affect people. I hope he will soon apologize and do something about it. He is my ultimate bias so I am a little shocked. My bad. 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by nefhilim

[Augusto]

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Augusto

[Jessikai]

yeah honestly, regardless of the intention or whether it's been done by other artists before, it was insensitive for suga to include that sample. it would force survivors of the mass suicide and their loved ones to relive that trauma. i hope he apologizes. and also....they ARE a lot of i-fans defending him on twitter, i've seen. look, even if you think suga is a genius with a great message, the fact remains that he used a cult leader and essentially a murderer's sermon.

[TrapWaifu]

Disband BTS 

[monraine]

his fans defending this are really scary tbh.. they seem like people that would blindly follow and shield every wrong doings of the person they follow/like.. it gives me goosebumps

[Rojen]

armys are good in cleaning the mess of those grown men, all I see is theories, excuses and acting like they are the lawyers of that guy .

Probably they are going to blame kpopies for this.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Rojen

[Moon Jellyfish]

Personally, it still doesn't sit well with me. Given the lyrics of the song and it's meaning, it just doesn't belong (though again, any use of the audio would still make me feel uncomfortable personally, no matter the message). Though it would be interesting to hear some sort of statement or clarification of sorts from him or someone involved in the song. I don't know if it would change a lot of people's minds (mine included), but a reasoning as to why it was included would help to know if he/they were trying to make some sort of statement, or if it really was just thrown in because they thought it would be "artistic" to have it. 

 

 

[Vagus]

Cant wait to read clarification essay made by oppalogist 

[Guest]

so basically:

1. oppa didnt mean it

2. he does produce his music but he doesnt 

3. you are too stupid to get his genius

 

just armys being armys.

[godblessdelulu]

Disgusting and a big fat YIKES

[Iria]

whatever his intention is, whatever message he tries to convey, using a sermon from a mass murderer is not right, period.

[sakurahanabira]

It's like how Koreans all know Lee Man Hee (founder of Shincheonji church), everyone in N.A. knows about Jim Jones.

I'm American and I don't know who he is. Can anyone r/OutoftheLoop me on who he is?

[Nofave]

54 minutes ago, nefhilim said:

Not trying to defend him but being objective in this... yes, the use of that speech was wrong in many ways, but maybe he have a point, a specific reason to put it into the song. Yoongi is not a fool, neither Big Hit. Many artists have sampled or referred to Jim Jones in their songs, but now that is a BTS scandal, people overreact. I'm a person of color and have family close to the Jim Jones case btw.

 

I would understand a BLACK RAPPER trying to sample this as a means to rebuke or criticize it 

but yoongi has no right to sample a cult leader responsible for hundreds of deaths of black people. You can even hear wailing children in the background of this guys speeches it's very gruesome 

also how is everyone lying saying he was trying to criticize it when this entire song is about how successful he is and his haters need to fuck off... please give it a rest. He came across the speech and thought it was cool. Stop. Defending. Him. 

 

edit: and when I say I would understand a black rapper what I mean is I wouldn't speak on this and let other black people express if it's appropriate or not considering the unfortunate deaths this man is responsible for is black people. As a fellow asian I can tell yoongi he is wrong point blank period for this 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Nofave

[shugwi]

48 minutes ago, Jessikai said:

yeah honestly, regardless of the intention or whether it's been done by other artists before, it was insensitive for suga to include that sample. it would force survivors of the mass suicide and their loved ones to relive that trauma. i hope he apologizes. and also....they ARE a lot of i-fans defending him on twitter, i've seen. look, even if you think suga is a genius with a great message, the fact remains that he used a cult leader and essentially a murderer's sermon.

pretty much this

[juniordud]

My only complaint is Armies are trying to come with a lot of suppositions at this point it would be better to wait for Big Hit answer.

 

Other example of person who used Jim Jones

The song was released in 2013, and was banned and even taken off YouTube, it was reuploaded in 2019 and without the option to like or dislike it and there is no comment sections.

[shugwi]

1 hour ago, monraine said:

his fans defending this are really scary tbh.. they seem like people that would blindly follow and shield every wrong doings of the person they follow/like.. it gives me goosebumps

his fans act like they are a part of a cult it's quite scary how they defend him they aren't better than Yoochun apologists. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by shugwi

[harumaki]

3 minutes ago, melancholic autumn said:

 

 

I'm American and I don't know who he is. Can anyone r/OutoftheLoop me on who he is?

 

 

[Fourever]

I'm not going to pretend to be fake outraged but yeah odd use of sample. I don't think it bought anything to the song. I would normally skip that part anyway

[felidae]

If fans feel that there's a good reason for him to do this, shouldn't they shut up and wait for official statement from Big Hit? Instead of going around saying he didn't mean if (even if he really didn't) and make things harder for him? I thought they're fans?

 

I know what he did but wasn't aware most are black people. He wasn't a good person, not a someone I'd like to relate with people I like. So fans, do please think thrice before you post your arguments.

Edited May 30, 2020 by felidae

[sasha]

people foaming at the mouth to "stick it" to fandom and/or idols themselves are no less ridiculous than oppalogists.

he either sampled without knowing who he was sampling and that would be dumb and ignorant. or he used it knowingly as some sort of hyperbole which makes it perfectly understandable why fans make their theories.

you can ignore the context of the mix-tape if it's an absolute taboo for you to sampe madmen's speeches. understandable.

but if you start picking and choosing who is allowed to do it and who is not, then maybe don't ignore the fact that there was a refference to mad murderers in both his flex tracks and that MV to one of those flex-track shows him couping against his mad murderous self.

Edited May 30, 2020 by sasha

[SLY]

Are his fans like... A part of a cult too?

Before you became a fan I'm pretty sure you we're a human being first (so did he). Someone made a mistake and he (or someone else who made the track in the improbable case that he wasn't the actual person who made the track) needs to apologize for that.

(I've watched a Jim Jones documentary for school before and his sins were traumatizing. Just the thought of his music (even a small tiny part) resurfacing makes me shiver. I saw tweets of some of Suga's fans on Twitter justifying the action of Jim Jones claiming it wasn't a massacre but a mass suicide??)

Why'd fans got to shield him by saying hE diD noThiNg wRonG? What's not wrong is asking for an apology or even just a statement for this... I hope they clear this up fast.

[starsocks]

Whether he's a tortured lyrical genius making an insightful sociopolitical statement or someone who didn't even know what the sample was, including it was super dumb.

MY or at the very least BH should 100% release a clarification/apology, but I'll be very surprised if that happens.

 

[Franny]

Well, It's not like I expected people whose faves have never ever made social commentary to understand context behind the whole song and lyrics, which basically criticizes cult and hive mind mentality. K-pop stans seriously have tunnel vision and lack critical thinking. They are too used to listening and watching things that make them comfortable and can't accept anything that might slightly disturb them.  He isn't the only person who has sampled Jim Jones speech. Lana Del Rey, Lil Uzi Vert, Brockhampton, Post Malone all did, but fake outrage is always directed at BTS. 

Anyways, Yoongi doesn't give a single fuck, he used it knowingly and said whatever he had to say. Sheeps like y'all are baited and trapped just like that.
No one has the right to censor art. Feel disturbed and be uncomfortable. That's how you should be feeling. 

[Danee Danee]

Can anyone share full lyrics please? It would be better for understanding context in which he used it. 

But quote Jones... Well... Im not even American and I know this is seriously wrong. Like... Its true that mass media are constantly using and even glamorizing murderers and criminals but its still wrong.