[PC] IDOLS WHO ARE BAD AT SINGING VS WHO ARE BAD AT DANCING

[reiichi]

10 hours ago, StanSatan said:

This seems to be true from watching those survival shows.  A person who can dance really well but their singing is weak still gets an A or is liked by the judges. Whilst a person who can sing really well but their dancing is at the level of the other person's singing  gets a B or is asked to practice more to be 'up to the mark'. 

They are musicians in the end, singing should be given more importance than it is.

Idols are performers first and foremost, which in their case means more than singing - it's a full package between vocals, dancing, and very importantly charisma and expressiveness. In terms of being musicians, having a sense of rhythm and not being tone deaf is enough to do well as an idol, as long as you're given parts that fit your vocal ability, and as I said before in this thread that's the biggest problem in a lot of Kpop songs, they're by default written for sopranos/tenors, so almost everyone with a lower voice struggles with their parts (or is given rap parts). Momo is often cited as someone who can only dance, but she sounds nice in the Move cover Twice does at concerts, because for once she's singing in her natural range.

In the Produce series being A or B is only important for the theme song, and they favor dancing skills over vocal ability because in the end only about 20 people will be recorded for the studio version of the track, while they're all going to dance in the performance video. The people who end up on the studio track aren't necessarily highly ranked, the most prominent voice in X1-ma was Lee Hyeop who was in D.

Edited March 19, 2020 by reiichi

[ohmymistake]

i think it's really important to have a good mix of both.

Like taeil from 127 can really sing but hes not exciting to watch so he only has like 2 stans.

When taeyong whos very exciting to watch can neither sing or rap well but has a lot of stans.

but jaehyun who can do everything well has the most stans. 

 

[Elscian]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:58 PM, reiichi said:

Idols are performers first and foremost, which in their case means more than singing - it's a full package between vocals, dancing, and very importantly charisma and expressiveness. In terms of being musicians, having a sense of rhythm and not being tone deaf is enough to do well as an idol, as long as you're given parts that fit your vocal ability, and as I said before in this thread that's the biggest problem in a lot of Kpop songs, they're by default written for sopranos/tenors, so almost everyone with a lower voice struggles with their parts (or is given rap parts). Momo is often cited as someone who can only dance, but she sounds nice in the Move cover Twice does at concerts, because for once she's singing in her natural range.

In the Produce series being A or B is only important for the theme song, and they favor dancing skills over vocal ability because in the end only about 20 people will be recorded for the studio version of the track, while they're all going to dance in the performance video. The people who end up on the studio track aren't necessarily highly ranked, the most prominent voice in X1-ma was Lee Hyeop who was in D.

And that's why i said when their singing skills are the 'same level' as the others dancing; implying that their dancing needs just as much improvement as the others singing. In other words both have the same potential of getting A,  however people are often ranked lower for weaker dancing than those for singing. 

And no, you can't say produce is only important for the theme song when they are clearly telling you that they are judging based on  talent. And my point is not about who is to be called talentless or who can sing or not(idk what this momo explanation has to do, she's already a debuted idol),  rather that two people with similar potential are judged with a mindset towards dancing. A 'charismatic' singer can need the same improvement in dancing as the dancer in singing,  but one aspect is put over the other. At least let's not when you're judging them. The later is another story.

 

 

[reiichi]

4 hours ago, StanSatan said:

And no, you can't say produce is only important for the theme song when they are clearly telling you that they are judging based on  talent. And my point is not about who is to be called talentless or who can sing or not(idk what this momo explanation has to do, she's already a debuted idol),  rather that two people with similar potential are judged with a mindset towards dancing. A 'charismatic' singer can need the same improvement in dancing as the dancer in singing,  but one aspect is put over the other. At least let's not when you're judging them. The later is another story.

What I was saying is that getting an 'A' in a Produce-type show just isn't an accurate measure of overall talent ?

The initial grading puts people into classes that are supposed to be roughly the same dance level, so trainers don't have too hard a time teaching the choreography to the whole group at the same time. Vocal training is more of an individual thing so it doesn't matter as much to have the same level within the class. You won't have people put in A just for vocal talent because they're just going to be lost during the dance lessons. When BoA heard Jaehwan sing she immediately said "We found our main vocal", but she still put him in B, because everyone she put in A was a great dancer (and unlike other seasons, nobody went down from A class).

Then re-evaluation grades are super important to get exposure, since the higher the grade, the more time you'll get to dance in the theme song music video, but they're not supposed to be an accurate measure of a trainee's talent. To get a good re-evaluation grade isn't a matter of being a good singer, it's much more important to know how to sing stably and dance at the same time than to sing well, and even people who are otherwise good can flunk it because of nerves (see : all of Nu'est except JR, Hyeongjun). That grade measures a pretty specific skill (whether you're able to learn a song and its choreography in three days, then perform it alone in from of a camera without any mistake).

After the theme song recording, the grades just disappear from the show. What matters at this point is whether you can do well on stage or not - and surprise, since you're here to be in an idol group, dancing well matters more, because if you're a bad singer you'll can just get a few easy lines, but if you're a bad dancer you can ruin the whole performance.

[Elscian]

9 hours ago, reiichi said:

What I was saying is that getting an 'A' in a Produce-type show just isn't an accurate measure of overall talent ?

The initial grading puts people into classes that are supposed to be roughly the same dance level, so trainers don't have too hard a time teaching the choreography to the whole group at the same time. Vocal training is more of an individual thing so it doesn't matter as much to have the same level within the class. You won't have people put in A just for vocal talent because they're just going to be lost during the dance lessons. When BoA heard Jaehwan sing she immediately said "We found our main vocal", but she still put him in B, because everyone she put in A was a great dancer (and unlike other seasons, nobody went down from A class).

Then re-evaluation grades are super important to get exposure, since the higher the grade, the more time you'll get to dance in the theme song music video, but they're not supposed to be an accurate measure of a trainee's talent. To get a good re-evaluation grade isn't a matter of being a good singer, it's much more important to know how to sing stably and dance at the same time than to sing well, and even people who are otherwise good can flunk it because of nerves (see : all of Nu'est except JR, Hyeongjun). That grade measures a pretty specific skill (whether you're able to learn a song and its choreography in three days, then perform it alone in from of a camera without any mistake).

After the theme song recording, the grades just disappear from the show. What matters at this point is whether you can do well on stage or not - and surprise, since you're here to be in an idol group, dancing well matters more, because if you're a bad singer you'll can just get a few easy lines, but if you're a bad dancer you can ruin the whole performance.

So you do agree that people are judged based on a mindset towards dancing.  Like I said, someone who  has the dance potential, but you're just assuming it to be a bad dancer. Ofc a bad dancer would ruin a performance. 

If you think that people can get away with a few lines then that's from your view. When a group is made up of only 1 or 2 vocal,  it becomes so hard to listen to some of their songs imo. And that's what some people here are saying.  The issue is not having some people in the group who can't sing at all(or are weak),  rather with a group being heavily skewed towards dancing. And that's something we are getting to see happen more often these days. It could've been the same issue with a group more skewed towards singing, but that's a rarity.  

But yeah maybe it doesn't affect you and you can tolerate some of the songs,  but for others its difficult to digest. 

[penyair]

wtf is the purpose if an idol can't sing? isn't idols main job is to sing? don't tell me, it's dancing now
why are they normalizing autotune, maybe this is the reason why they are not interested to idols nowadays

[Guest]

6 hours ago, penyair said:

wtf is the purpose if an idol can't sing? isn't idols main job is to sing? don't tell me, it's dancing now
why are they normalizing autotune, maybe this is the reason why they are not interested to idols nowadays

I think using the term idol for a singer is the problem. Idols are trained to be more than just singers or just dancers. Thats why i feel that they get into too many different lectures (dance, rap, sing, act, modeling etc.) That some people dont get better at singing. I think the most important thing is in a group to be able to deliver your lines. Everyone can sing, ive never seen a tone deaf idol, but the difference is how good they are at it. There is a difference between a member who can belt the highnotes and one that sings their 2 lines well. If u see a potential in dance from that member that has 2 lines but is an amazing dancer then why not give them a chance? For example Taemin barely had lines during debut, but u cant deny that his singing is waaaay better now. I saw a survival show of a group where the main vocal was scolded for their dance, but not because they werent as good as the main dancers, but because their mistakes were too prominant to ignore. The ceo even said " i dont ask u to be good at dancing if u are a main vocal, just practise enough so that u dont make mistakes and take the whole group down with u." While he said this he blamed the main dancer for a little mistake because that was his part and he is responsible for that. I think groups need to work with the membeds weakness and strength but also every member to be on a basic level, whether raper, dancer or singer. 

Also autotune, i dont really care. These days its even a stylistic choice, as long as they dont sound totally different live than in mv im fine with it. 

[penyair]

1 hour ago, NothingOriginal said:

I think using the term idol for a singer is the problem. Idols are trained to be more than just singers or just dancers. Thats why i feel that they get into too many different lectures (dance, rap, sing, act, modeling etc.) That some people dont get better at singing. I think the most important thing is in a group to be able to deliver your lines. Everyone can sing, ive never seen a tone deaf idol, but the difference is how good they are at it. There is a difference between a member who can belt the highnotes and one that sings their 2 lines well. If u see a potential in dance from that member that has 2 lines but is an amazing dancer then why not give them a chance? For example Taemin barely had lines during debut, but u cant deny that his singing is waaaay better now. I saw a survival show of a group where the main vocal was scolded for their dance, but not because they werent as good as the main dancers, but because their mistakes were too prominant to ignore. The ceo even said " i dont ask u to be good at dancing if u are a main vocal, just practise enough so that u dont make mistakes and take the whole group down with u." While he said this he blamed the main dancer for a little mistake because that was his part and he is responsible for that. I think groups need to work with the membeds weakness and strength but also every member to be on a basic level, whether raper, dancer or singer. 

Also autotune, i dont really care. These days its even a stylistic choice, as long as they dont sound totally different live than in mv im fine with it. 

Of course it is okay if they can sing decently, but there are some groups right now who lip sync, or their voices cnnot be heard because they focus more on dance

for autotune, i agree it could be used for stylistic choice, but why the f would they use autotune in singing ballads, it isn't stylistic choice anymore, that sucks

Edited April 18, 2021 by penyair

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, penyair said:

Of course it is okay if they can sing decently, but there are some groups right now who lip sync, or their voices cnnot be heard because they focus more on dance

for autotune, i agree it could be used for stylistic choice, but why the f would they use autotune in singing ballads, it isn't stylistic choice anymore, that sucks

Hmmm ballads? XD For real? i dont listen to much ballads so idk

[sinnfb]

Good singers are definitely more important to me since I listen to songs more than watch performances. Also the thing is that kpop performance standards are so high that the worst dancer from the group is still way better at it than the most popular worldwide stars. Usually the "bad" dancer blends in the background and doesn't take anything away from the performance.

Take Jin or Tiffany for example, idols who were always criticized for not being good dancers, both have energy on stage and keep up with the choreography and it's hard for a casual fan to notice the difference between them and some of the members of their group right away. 

[Taecoholic]

Singing >>>>>>

[lighterxx]

Oh wow people revived this 

[RIPHaldir]

Its harder to hide lacking singing then dancing becuase in case of poor dancers you can just not dance, like what Big Bangs does

Edited April 19, 2021 by RIPHaldir

[Jejepang]

Is it possible to be terrible at both ?