[Controversial Topic] How beneficial are fanwars for a group?

[satoori]

 

In my opinion, I think it depends...

When it’s between GG vs GG or BG vs BG i guess it can be helpful. It can push the individual fandoms to work harder

BG vs GG - Personally I wouldn’t suggest a GG fandom fight with a BG fandom. The GG themselves have a lot more to lose in the long-run.

 

[Acer]

I think fanwars really does contribute hype to the groups and stronger bond with in fandoms. So, it is very beneficial imo this is why new gen fandom should start fighting instead of being non fighters.  

Edited November 11, 2019 by Acer

[Guest]

it does help with sales and companies know it, thats why they lowkey or highkey encourage it.

[satoori]

7 minutes ago, Acer said:

I think fanwars really does contribute hype to the groups and stronger bond with in fandoms. So, it is very beneficial imo this is why new gen fandom should start fighting instrend being non fighters.

new gen fandoms do fight...their fanwars are not as big because they have nothing big to fight for right now. (roty can be big one....as can be seen recently...)

some of them have made some questionable decisions tho. rookie groups picking fights with bigger and older fandoms

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by satoori

[Moon Jellyfish]

Eh, i suppose in some twisted way it does boost an individual fandom's drive to 'support' their faves and what not.

 

But there have been times where fanwards gone beyond toxic and crossed a line. 

[satoori]

Just now, strawberry melon said:

it does help with sales and companies know it, thats why they lowkey or highkey encourage it.

this is very true

companies do all the time

[satoori]

Just now, Moon Jellyfish said:

Eh, i suppose in some twisted way it does boost an individual fandom's drive to 'support' their faves and what not.

 

But there have been times where fanwards gone beyond toxic and crossed a line. 

agree, in ideal world no fanwars would be perfect

 

however it's inevitable. even more so when companies push it too

[Tayenne]

fanwars are one of the major reasons why non k-pop fans find kpop "weird" I think so it kinda hurts them in expanding the audience in a way

[Trashie]

I'll talk about what I really feel

I can hate a group or love them from how their fans behave in those fanwars... since fanwars are unavoidable 

so it depends totally 

 

but I don't think fanwars put too much on hyping any group or the opposite much

because what matters are public view instead of other fandoms. and public don't necessarily care about fanwars except they find them annoying 

 

as in what you said in the internal fandom

you know GG stans are better than BG stans in one thing. when a BG vs GG happen.... BG stans would laugh at that one BG fandom

but in general GG stans in general support eachother because of the Female culture in Korea 

 

but hey it all depends in the context of the fanwar. how big fandoms are. and from whos point of view

[Moon Jellyfish]

6 minutes ago, satoori said:

agree, in ideal world no fanwars would be perfect

 

however it's inevitable. even more so when companies push it too

Yeah ideally, it'd be nice if there were no fanwars, and things were more peaceful. I suppose since a good deal of them are so petty anyways, doesn't really need to be addressed much. But in some cases, I wish companies would step in when things get a little too far if they haven't already. 

 

[Miss.Miss]

Very. It creates an US vs THEM dynamic which drives fandoms to be more competitive. 

[coval]

“Healthy competition” is always a good thing and beneficial but the thing with most fanwars is that they’re completely unhealthy.

So while kpop fanwars boost sales that’s about it. The whole environment becomes toxic and unenjoyable. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by BTS Anti

[satoori]

11 minutes ago, Tayenne said:

fanwars are one of the major reasons why non k-pop fans find kpop "weird" I think so it kinda hurts them in expanding the audience in a way

 

other fans fight too...it's not just kpop...sports, etc...

however i do agree kpop fandoms fanwars can be bigger then some and very toxic

the fandom culture is different. fans are a lot more emotionally attached? to the groups they stan. we can see this in other music industries across the world too

 

10 minutes ago, Trashie said:

I'll talk about what I really feel

I can hate a group or love them from how their fans behave in those fanwars... since fanwars are unavoidable 

so it depends totally 

 

but I don't think fanwars put too much on hyping any group or the opposite much

because what matters are public view instead of other fandoms. and public don't necessarily care about fanwars except they find them annoying 

 

as in what you said in the internal fandom

you know GG stans are better than BG stans in one thing. when a BG vs GG happen.... BG stans would laugh at that one BG fandom

but in general GG stans in general support eachother because of the Female culture in Korea 

 

but hey it all depends in the context of the fanwar. how big fandoms are. and from whos point of view

there is just so much the public can do for a kpop idol group

 

"you know GG stans are better than BG stans in one thing. when a BG vs GG happen.... BG stans would laugh at that one BG fandom

but in general GG stans in general support eachother because of the Female culture in Korea"

you're saying GG fandoms will team together to fight one boy group fandom when there is a fight

hmmm true

 

perspective do matter. back when armys were small and senior fandoms teamed up against armys, it was very stressful. however it did make the fandom stronger in the long run. i feel i can say the same about exo-ls too. back in the days other 2nd gen groups and even some sm stans use to drag them.

Edited November 11, 2019 by satoori

[Kally]

12 minutes ago, Tayenne said:

fanwars are one of the major reasons why non k-pop fans find kpop "weird" I think so it kinda hurts them in expanding the audience in a way

Western fandoms fanwars are just as bad if not worse than kpop fanwars though

[satoori]

7 minutes ago, Moon Jellyfish said:

Yeah ideally, it'd be nice if there were no fanwars, and things were more peaceful. I suppose since a good deal of them are so petty anyways, doesn't really need to be addressed much. But in some cases, I wish companies would step in when things get a little too far if they haven't already. 

 

that last part would be helpful

 

 

 

[Trashie]

1 minute ago, satoori said:

there is just so much a the public can do for a kpop idol group

 

"you know GG stans are better than BG stans in one thing. when a BG vs GG happen.... BG stans would laugh at that one BG fandom

but in general GG stans in general support eachother because of the Female culture in Korea"

you're saying GG fandoms will team together to fight one boy group fandom when they're are fights

hmmm true

 

perspective do matter. back when armys were small and bigger fandoms teamed up against the fandom, it was very stressful. however it did make the fandom stronger in the long run. i feel i can say the same about exo-ls too. back in the days other 2nd gen groups and even some sm stans use to drag them.

well you know... when a bg stan say something about one female idol. all female stans whether from fandom or outside would come at the bg stans and be like if it was your oppa you it won't be like this or that etc lmao. but as a bg stan we don't give a shit when other bg got dragged lmao anw

 

but yes see those are examples but are not necessarily happening all time

like I was a wannable before and the fandom got lots of shit. but that didn't make the fandom one bit more stronger... but it's more due to the fact it is full of solo stans

in same circumstances I'm a one it. but it feels alot different than it was as wannable. the fandom got so stronger like you mentioned about army and exol

it just depends on how fans choose to deal with situations and the fandom structure and many other things... it's not stereotypical thing imo

[satoori]

12 minutes ago, Trashie said:

well you know... when a bg stan say something about one female idol. all female stans whether from fandom or outside would come at the bg stans and be like if it was your oppa you it won't be like this or that etc lmao. but as a bg stan we don't give a shit when other bg got dragged lmao anw

 

but yes see those are examples but are not necessarily happening all time

like I was a wannable before and the fandom got lots of shit. but that didn't make the fandom one bit more stronger... but it's more due to the fact it is full of solo stans

in same circumstances I'm a one it. but it feels alot different than it was as wannable. the fandom got so stronger like you mentioned about army and exol

it just depends on how fans choose to deal with situations and the fandom structure and many other things... it's not stereotypical thing imo

it would be nice, if BG fandoms supported each other more.

 

w1 fandom is different situation as you pointed out. the group was temporary. as you mentioned the solo stan issue y'all had was huge. it divided the fandom. if the group was permanent the fandom would of learn to deal with individual stans. maybe would not have been as many solo stans either eventually.

however w1 fandom did get stronger by the end of the group contract. specially in korea. the k-side was getting ready to become a huge problem for many other kfandoms. k-wannables were starting to fight more with other fandoms. and i'm sure that would of spilled over to the international side eventually.

 

x1 is 5 year group so it make sense that the culture of the fandom is almost traditional-like. and now with the issues the fandom is facing, it will become even more closer.

 

agree it depends on many factors

Edited November 11, 2019 by satoori

[rockerchic88]

It’s part of fan culture. Just like shipping, it’s another big part of stan verse. 
 

It’s not a question of whether it’s beneficial or not. It’s just a part of being in stan verse. And everything in stan verse aids in the existence of it. 

[satoori]

Just now, haikyuuboo said:

It’s part of fan culture. Just like shipping, it’s another big part of stan verse. 
 

It’s not a question of whether it’s beneficial or not. It’s just a part of being in stan verse. And everything in stan verse aids in the existence of it. 

good point

it's part of the dna of fandom culture

[Pyron]

The only benefit would be if it trickles down to their pockets. If it generates some form of hype that would affect sales, sure, but I think for the most part it's just a waste of energy and actually it could be potentially damaging to the brand name of the group via spreading false rumors or negative public perception of the fandom affecting the group as well.

We are just discussing if it's beneficial to the group, not if it's part of the tribalism behavior that can arise from fandom or if it's good for the fandom to participate in one. We can discuss the benefits. We can discuss tangible benefits and cons for the group without going into a tangent.

For the groups/artists, in pratical terms they only care about increasing their fame and fortune. Part of today's Kpop image is its cleanliness. Getting into fanwar is something they wouldn't want as it is counterproductive to further that image. It's not like rapper wars. Maybe it was common for first and maybe second generation (like Sechskies x HOT of the past) and it may have been part of their image making, but for newer groups this is clearly not the case and probably something they actively would avoid. For the groups, they rather have a friendly relationship.

Now going into a tangent about the idea of being part of fandom culture. I'm actually not that sure as something that should be viewed as natural or inevitable. I think it's only part of the fandom if it reaches a tribalism level which is often the case. I can accept this. However, I think there is counter movement against this form of behavior as well. Multi fandom is a counter point (or accepting Kpop in general) to this and as more people are OK in embracing ideas/hobbies/whatever as a whole instead of entrenching in just one of these, this behavior could become less and less accepted and normalized. The problem is moderating behavior is often just drowned by the noise caused by extremist behavior and eventually accepted by conformity.

[satoori]

1 hour ago, Pyron said:

The only benefit would be if it trickles down to their pockets. If it generates some form of hype that would affect sales, sure, but I think for the most part it's just a waste of energy and actually it could be potentially damaging to the brand name of the group via spreading false rumors or negative public perception of the fandom affecting the group as well.

We are just discussing if it's beneficial to the group, not if it's part of the tribalism behavior that can arise from fandom or if it's good for the fandom to participate in one. We can discuss the benefits. We can discuss tangible benefits and cons for the group without going into a tangent.

For the groups/artists, in pratical terms they only care about increasing their fame and fortune. Part of today's Kpop image is its cleanliness. Getting into fanwar is something they wouldn't want as it is counterproductive to further that image. It's not like rapper wars. Maybe it was common for first and maybe second generation (like Sechskies x HOT of the past) and it may have been part of their image making, but for newer groups this is clearly not the case and probably something they actively would avoid. For the groups, they rather have a friendly relationship.

Now going into a tangent about the idea of being part of fandom culture. I'm actually not that sure as something that should be viewed as natural or inevitable. I think it's only part of the fandom if it reaches a tribalism level which is often the case. I can accept this. However, I think there is counter movement against this form of behavior as well. Multi fandom is a counter point (or accepting Kpop in general) to this and as more people are OK in embracing ideas/hobbies/whatever as a whole instead of entrenching in just one of these, this behavior could become less and less accepted and normalized. The problem is moderating behavior is often just drowned by the noise caused by extremist behavior and eventually accepted by conformity.

A loyal fandom equals more fame and fortunate. The most loyal fandom right now in Kpop (in the world), some would argue is Armys. Before them (Kpop-wise) EXO-Ls, TVXQ, Big Bang etc...

As some here have said, fanwars can boost drive and create a US vs THEM mentality. For some fans constantly defending and "protecting" their favs makes them even more loyal. A loyal fan will pay more. Companies know this too.

Part of being a Kpop "idol" is a image is clean. That's not necessarily the same for the Kpop "fandom" image. It's one of the reasons many companies have supported sasaeng type behavior before. These practices are still being used today. 

Multi-fans are very much apart of fanwars too. Just because they support many groups don't stop them from defending their favs when necessary. When they are forced to pick a side, there are many that will. Plus, there's the case of multis who stan majority GGs or BGs. So like another user said, they might not fight with GGs fandaom but they will with all BGs.

[Pyron]

1 hour ago, satoori said:

A loyal fandom equals more fame and fortunate. The most loyal fandom right now in Kpop (in the world), some would argue is Armys. Before them (Kpop-wise) EXO-Ls, TVXQ, Big Bang etc...

As some here have said, fanwars can boost drive and create a US vs THEM mentality. For some fans constantly defending and "protecting" their favs makes them even more loyal. A loyal fan will pay more. Companies know this too.

Part of being a Kpop "idol" is a image is clean. That's not necessarily the same for the Kpop "fandom" image. It's one of the reasons many companies have supported sasaeng type behavior before. These practices are still being used today. 

Multi-fans are very much apart of fanwars too. Just because they support many groups don't stop them from defending their favs when necessary. When they are forced to pick a side, there are many that will. Plus, there's the case of multis who stan majority GGs or BGs. So like another user said, they might not fight with GGs fandaom but they will with all BGs.

Of course I don't doubt more rabid fans will shell more money and promote their faves. However, I don't think fan wars are part of that. You can be loyal and even obsessive about something. It's more a symptom of defensiveness from tribalism than something that can be marketed. Once you identify yourself to a label, your individuality may be lost in this fan war group behavior.

At least not for the image Kpop in general is going for. Sure, in metal and rap this is more common, but not in today's Kpop. I don't see any group provoking other groups. I see the opposite behavior more often. At the same time it also can be negative due to damaging image cause indirectly by fanwars due to rumor spreading and bad public perception.

For instance, a lot of people may not get into some fandom or check some hobby due to the fans like anime, a product, or whatever thing that evokes obsession. I'm pretty sure a lot of people won't touch Kpop or a group in particular if they see rabid behavior of fandoms fighting it out.

Now I'm not saying companies control the image of the fandom. After all this is an independent association. It's the same as organized cheer squads in soccer and so on. Soccer companies can't control the criminal activities of these and for sure they don't incite them even if they may benefit from them. I'm more specific about the way they manage their image and in that nothing evoke this particular antagonistic/defensive behavior. Fanwar is a feature of fandoms, sure, but no company is trying to tap that and inciting it for some dubious gains. Not like rivalry in soccer or Sechkies x HOT. The maximum may be companies may throw a jab, but even there they are very amicable with each other.

Companies can't fight against this behavior because they can't provoke their own customer base. They depends more on fan engagement, so they will avoid confrontation naturally. Now support of sasaeng behavior seems more like they can't do much about it unless they break the law. After that said support is negated. They want the loyalty/money, not the bad behavior. The bad behavior may come with the package, but it's not what they want. It's a fine balance which a lot of companies can't manage properly. Also, companies can't avoid all staff back door business as well. Sure you see some conscious choice to fuel this behavior in some cases, but for this generation I don't see it. Pretty sure most groups and their companies are not for fueling fanwars to acquire fan engagement. They may not publicly criticize this behavior because they don't wanna rattle their customer base, but at the same time I don't see them inciting their fans to go for this behavior.

Now I think this fanwar behavior is natural, but at the same time as individual we are not bound by that. Once we see it for what it is, we can choose what to do with it. One can just rationalize it and justify it, one can try fight it and be more rational about it, or double down in one way or the other. Sadly most will not even reach this point of recognizing that their this and partake in such group behavior.

Now some multi-fans or Kpop fans in general may pick a side or help argumentation if it's rational to them to do so, but at the same time some may choose to not become entrenched and still maintain some level of neutrality or moderation. Of course in the cyber space it's very hard to distinguish rationality with the noise caused by rabid people. Defending your fav is fine and normal. I'm not talking about this. Fan war isn't just defending your fav. It's more a defensive entrenchment that will cause people go to the offensive. For these rabid people, they think they are defending as they feel their favs are threatened (and by proxy them as they project much of their dedication to their fans).

Still we are talking about fanwar behavior. I think loyalty and obsession are separated from that. Fanwar is more a group behavior. Of course I'm not assuming any defensive argument or criticism as fanwar. A lot of them can be warranted and needed to be said although it can all become blurry as rabid fans will use these as tools to further their own narratives.

Now going back to the original discussion, I think it's hard to quantify benefits and cons of this for the group. Fanwars can be a fun activity for those who partake in them as well. Rivalry is a thing, but in terms of some tangible value, I think it seems more potentially harmful than beneficial. In metal for instance, some groups who partake in this activities got burned by these in the end and both groups ended up with loss of brand reputation. I don't see much cases of real gain. Sure more fan "engagements", but how much it really translated in $$$ seems a different story.

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Pyron

[satoori]

7 minutes ago, Pyron said:

Of course I don't doubt more rabid fans will shell more money and promote their faves. However, I don't think fan wars are part of that. You can be loyal and even obsessive about something. It's more a symptom of defensiveness from tribalism than something that can be marketed. Once you identify yourself to a label, your individuality may be lost in this fan war group behavior.

At least not for the image Kpop in general is going for. Sure, in metal and rap this is more common, but not in today's Kpop. I don't see any group provoking other groups. I see the opposite behavior more often. At the same time it also can be negative due to damaging image cause indirectly by fanwars due to rumor spreading and bad public perception.

For instance, a lot of people may not get into some fandom or check some hobby due to the fans like anime, a product, or whatever thing that evokes obsession. I'm pretty sure a lot of people won't touch Kpop or a group in particular if they see rabid behavior of fandoms fighting it out.

Now I'm not saying companies control the image of the fandom. After all this is an independent association. It's the same as organized cheer squads in soccer and so on. Soccer companies can't control the criminal activities of these and for sure they don't incite them even if they may benefit from them. I'm more specific about the way they manage their image and in that nothing evoke this particular antagonistic/defensive behavior. Fanwar is a feature of fandoms, sure, but no company is trying to tap that and inciting it for some dubious gains. Not like rivalry in soccer or Sechkies x HOT. The maximum may be companies may throw a jab, but even there they are very amicable with each other.

Companies can't fight against this behavior because they can't provoke their own customer base. They depends more on fan engagement, so they will avoid confrontation naturally. Now support of sasaeng behavior seems more like they can't do much about it unless they break the law. After that said support is negated. They want the loyalty/money, not the bad behavior. The bad behavior may come with the package, but it's not what they want. It's a fine balance which a lot of companies can't manage properly. Also, companies can't avoid all staff back door business as well. Sure you see some conscious choice to fuel this behavior in some cases, but for this generation I don't see it. Pretty sure most groups and their companies are not for fueling fanwars to acquire fan engagement. They may not publicly criticize this behavior because they don't wanna rattle their customer base, but at the same time I don't see them inciting their fans to go for this behavior.

Now I think this fanwar behavior is natural, but at the same time as individual we are not bound by that. Once we see it for what it is, we can choose what to do with it. One can just rationalize it and justify it, one can try fight it and be more rational about it, or double down in one way or the other. Sadly most will not even reach this point of recognizing that their this and partake in such group behavior.

Now some multi-fans or Kpop fans in general may pick a side or help argumentation if it's rational to them to do so, but at the same time some may choose to not become entrenched and still maintain some level of neutrality or moderation. Of course in the cyber space it's very hard to distinguish rationality with the noise caused by rabid people. Defending your fav is fine and normal. I'm not talking about this. Fan war isn't just defending your fav. It's more a defensive entrenchment that will cause people go to the offensive. For these rabid people, they think they are defending as they feel their favs are threatened (and by proxy them as they project much of their dedication to their fans).

Still we are talking about fanwar behavior. I think loyalty and obsession are separated from that. Fanwar is more a group behavior. Of course I'm not assuming any defensive argument or criticism as fanwar. A lot of them can be warranted and needed to be said although it can all become blurry as rabid fans will use these as tools to further their own narratives.

Now going back to the original discussion, I think it's hard to quantify benefits and cons of this for the group. Fanwars can be a fun activity for those who partake in them as well. Rivalry is a thing, but in terms of some tangible value, I think it seems more potentially harmful than beneficial. In metal for instance, some groups who partake in this activities got burned by these in the end and both groups ended up with loss of brand reputation. I don't see much cases of real gain. Sure more fan "engagements", but how much it really translated in $$$ seems a different story.

 

You write a lot 

Once you identify yourself as part of a fandom. You're already labeled. Companies and groups support this label even more by creating fandom names, colors, and etc.

Kpop fans already have a image of being obsessed teenage girls. That is all the Western outlets write about lol. Even in Korea there's that stigma (it's getting better tho). In general, boy groups all over the world have had that image. However people still join a fandom and/or supports a group. As I said earlier, the "clean" image of a fandom is the least of a company concerns. In fact, Korean-wise, it wasn't till recently with BTS that K-Armys got attention for the different concert and airport projects they spread about having a good fandom image. Many articles and news reported about it.

I still see the backdoor fueling of the bad behavior by companies, even of this generation. Ignoring the behavior can be beneficial to some too. One example: SM have basically ignore sasaengs for years, still do. Let them get away with a lot.

Fanwars are inevitable. A person can be rational and still participate. There are two sides to a fanwar, the defense and offense. Defending your favs is not a problem. It would be odd if loyal fandoms didn't. Everything is about perspective. Most fans will believe they're defending their favs not attacking another fandom. So they consider it healthy.

Yes, fanwars is group behavior. The fandom is a group too.

I don't support groups getting directly involved with fanwars. As you said that can lead to unfavorable results.

[Gaudy]

6 hours ago, Tayenne said:

fanwars are one of the major reasons why non k-pop fans find kpop "weird" I think so it kinda hurts them in expanding the audience in a way

No it’s not, lmao

Fanwars exist in every fandom, yeah they’re bad in kpop but they don’t limit the audience. What’s limiting the audience is that tired conspiracy from Shane Dawson about industry abuse. 

[Pyron]

1 minute ago, satoori said:

You write a lot 

Once you identify yourself as part of a fandom. You're already labeled. Companies and groups support this label even more by creating fandom names, colors, and etc.

Kpop fans already have a image of being obsessed teenage girls. That is all the Western outlets write about lol. Even in Korea there's that stigma (it's getting better tho). In general, boy groups all over the world have had that image. However people still join a fandom and/or supports a group. As I said earlier, the "clean" image of a fandom is the least of a company concerns. In fact, Korean-wise, it wasn't till recently with BTS that K-Armys got attention for the different concert and airport projects they spread about having a good fandom image. Many articles and news reported about it.

I still see the backdoor fueling of the bad behavior by companies, even of this generation. Ignoring the behavior can be beneficial to some too. One example: SM have basically ignore sasaengs for years, still do. Let them get away with a lot.

Fanwars are inevitable. A person can be rational and still participate. There are two sides to a fanwar, the defense and offense. Defending your favs is not a problem. It would be odd if loyal fandoms didn't. Everything is about perspective. Most fans will believe they're defending their favs not attacking another fandom. So they consider it healthy.

Yes, fanwars is group behavior. The fandom is a group too.

I don't support groups getting directly involved with fanwars. As you said that can lead to unfavorable results.

Yeah, I'm very pedantic about it. I will try to be more concise.

I do agree that companies will purposely seek loyalty and obsession to fans. There are lot of back door deals as well. But at front they can't really support this particular activity. I think sasaeng behavior is a different thing from fan war. They partake in that and are source for a lot of that I imagine, but it seems a different issue for me. They would just be happy if their fandom would play friendly with others and still spend tons on them. I don't think companies go about like a zero sum war.

Fandom can be individual too. Of course, if you name yourself part of an organized one or just giving yourself a label, sure it will become part of that group. I'm fan of groups and have bias, but I don't wanna identify myself to a named fandom. We are a quiet minority, but we exist.

I do agree with your points. That's a feature of fandom/tribe in general. However, I'm more specific about the group behavior fueled by this. I know it's inevitable in general, but at the same time I think as we are becoming more aware of the impact of social media and this particular form of tribalism behavior, so maybe it may not become inevitable.

There were papers about tribalism behavior in the past. However, I think the discussion of how to counter/control/avoid this is quite new and fueled by the alarming rise of nationalism for instance, so maybe as we become more aware, moderation may actually be more common in fandom as well no matter how much obsession and loyalty factor in. I may be wrong, but I wanna be optimist about it.

I can see fan wars be "fun" activities. In the past I partook in console fan wars and soccer rivalries and so on. I don't see it just as negative. However, for today's Kpop I don't see gains from that per se. It seems like a symptom or an after thought that may not be properly used for gains for the artists. Maybe a group/company may show up and be upfront about talking shit about other groups. Who knows. It would be unique.