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BH required its staff to follow an Islamic culture training before BTS the concert


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If foreign women can’t even show their shoulders and knees, it must be hell over there for the native women.

Im happy the company is trying to be as polite as possible even though I find these restrictive tactics despicable.

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11 minutes ago, JohnnyNohLines said:

If foreign women can’t even show their shoulders and knees, it must be hell over there for the native women.

Im happy the company is trying to be as polite as possible even though I find these restrictive tactics despicable.

The bolded is not for you or me to decide. This sort of presumption is based on an "othering" narrative that assumes all women want the same things.

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32 minutes ago, Hormones. said:

Umm, don't tell people not to have opinions. We have eyes, ears and a mouth we can tell when something is wrong, culture is irrelevant if people don't have the same rights. You should know better. If you're not talking about Islamic states, then disregard what I said because that's what I believe the guy you quoted meant. 

 

Hormones, you have this problem where you react before you take time to read things or understand perspectives. I know you're anti-religion and I know you're used to consuming and perpetuating agenda-based, black and white propaganda but at least read next time.

All I am saying is don't presume to know these women's experiences just because you've read x or seen y. You don't speak for them nor do you get to homogenized their experience. Its almost orientalist with the way people view women from these states. Its insulting. Have your opinions. Don't pressume you know what they think or would believe. You people arent their saviours. 

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3 minutes ago, freya said:

Hormones, you have this problem where you react before you take time to read things or understand perspectives. I know you're anti-religion and I know you're used to consuming and perpetuating agenda-based, black and white propaganda but at least read next time.

All I am saying is don't presume to know these women's experiences just because you've read x or seen y. You don't speak for them nor do you get to homogenized their experience. Its almost orientalist with the way people view women from these states. Its insulting. Have your opinions. Don't pressume you know what they think or would believe. You people arent their saviours. 

Rolling my eyes, apparently everything is an agenda even showing what these women from their countries say about the islamic state they came from. But okay yeah I'm not the one listening, wrong is wrong women deserve rights I hope you can at least see that and aren't the type to be complicit because of some culture, that's all point blank period.

Main point if you still don't understand, women deserve equal rights because if you don't see them as equal you tend to treat them like an other/trash. 

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7 minutes ago, freya said:

Hormones, you have this problem where you react before you take time to read things or understand perspectives. I know you're anti-religion and I know you're used to consuming and perpetuating agenda-based, black and white propaganda but at least read next time.

All I am saying is don't presume to know these women's experiences just because you've read x or seen y. You don't speak for them nor do you get to homogenized their experience. Its almost orientalist with the way people view women from these states. Its insulting. Have your opinions. Don't pressume you know what they think or would believe. You people arent their saviours. 

True freedom should be choosing to cover yourself but also being given the right to not have to. You yourself are pretty much speaking of what these women really want by saying this. My mother and father used to live in these countries for years with laws and customs like this and they couldn’t even eat together because they were not married (they were together for 5 years at that point)  She was forced to sit in the back of the restaurant. She couldn’t even ride in a cab with him. When they walked down the street men would stare angrily at my mother, even when she was covered completely aside from her head. So please, don’t assume that all the women there are okay with this. Many aren’t, but what voice are they even given. I’m really arguing women’s rights in 2019. 

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26 minutes ago, Hormones. said:

Rolling my eyes, apparently everything is an agenda even showing what these women from their countries say about the islamic state they came from. But okay yeah I'm not the one listening, wrong is wrong women deserve rights I hope you can at least see that and aren't the type to be complicit because of some culture, that's all point blank period.

Main point if you still don't understand, women deserve equal rights because if you don't see them as equal you tend to treat them like an other/trash. 

 

20 minutes ago, Nsfw said:

True freedom should be choosing to cover yourself but also being given the right to not have to. You yourself are pretty much speaking of what these women really want by saying this. My mother and father used to live in these countries for years with laws and customs like this and they couldn’t even eat together because they were not married (they were together for 5 years at that point)  She was forced to sit in the back of the restaurant. She couldn’t even ride in a cab with him. When they walked down the street men would stare angrily at my mother, even when she was covered completely aside from her head. So please, don’t assume that all the women there are okay with this. Many aren’t, but what voice are they even given. I’m really arguing women’s rights in 2019. 

Both of you are taking this to a place to I never went because of your emotions and/or terrible reading of what I am saying. By asking you not to homogenize, I am not denying anything you are saying. One of you is a man, the other a presumably white woman.

I am a non-white muslim woman who will be married off to someone I don't know, likely someone religious because that's what my parents want even though I'm not religious. I lived in Saudi Arabia my whole life and at the age of 16 made up this tantrum about my education to get out of there. I really don't understand why you're all preaching to me or at anyone with a take I am not arguing against. Speaking FOR people generalistically is just problematic, othering and the exact ways in which colonial powers have justified conquering our countries. 

My original post was in the vein of "stop speaking for these people and assuming you know their experiences". They have voices even though you think they are being subdued. I have friends there. Family there. So I know. Assuming women are voiceless there is so counterproductive to any rights movement. (One that is winning there btw)

They don't need your generalisations. That was my point. People in "western" countries always want to speak about humans rights abuses without taking care not to erase these victims actual voices and the plurality of experience.

Edited by freya
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1 hour ago, JohnnyNohLines said:

If foreign women can’t even show their shoulders and knees, it must be hell over there for the native women.

Im happy the company is trying to be as polite as possible even though I find these restrictive tactics despicable.

Well Iranian women are suffering so much under compulsory hijabing rules, so I suppose a huge number in SA too feel suffocated.

 

This is the thing that is rubbing me wrong by so much: What if BTS forced their female staff to wear MAGA hats and star-spangled bikinis because they were going to USA?  Would you guys applaud that sort of 'sensitivity training'? After all, US is also a separate country with its own culture?

I cannot and will not agree with forced clothing choices imposed on people based on some other people's religion.

Indeed, states based on religion are disgusting. Your faith should be personal, and how you practice it should be private in general.

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28 minutes ago, freya said:

 

They don't need your generalisations. That was my point. People in "western" countries always want to speak about humans rights abuses without taking care not to erase these victims actual voices and the plurality of experience.

What voice am I erasing? Every person born on this earth regardless of gender has certain human rights they are entitled to, and women in Saudi Arabia couldn’t even drive or divorce without some kind of male supervision until recently. How am I erasing any voice by saying women have the right to do these things, and also to not. Am I saying they NEED to drive? No. They can do whatever they want, that’s the point. But they as human beings are ENTITLED to this. 

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13 minutes ago, Nsfw said:

What voice am I erasing? Every person born on this earth regardless of gender has certain human rights they are entitled to, and women in Saudi Arabia couldn’t even drive or divorce without some kind of male supervision until recently. How am I erasing any voice by saying women have the right to do these things, and also to not. Am I saying they NEED to drive? No. They can do whatever they want, that’s the point. But they as human beings are ENTITLED to this. 

I agree with this, it's about giving women the choice by both society and law

 

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25 minutes ago, Nsfw said:

What voice am I erasing? Every person born on this earth regardless of gender has certain human rights they are entitled to, and women in Saudi Arabia couldn’t even drive or divorce without some kind of male supervision until recently. How am I erasing any voice by saying women have the right to do these things, and also to not. Am I saying they NEED to drive? No. They can do whatever they want, that’s the point. But they as human beings are ENTITLED to this. 

I agree with all the above. Again why are you telling me this? Why did you quote me? Your original post said something along the lines of women should be able to wear what they want. I agree. I never quoted you to disagree. You quoted me with a response that misrepresented me so I had to clarify my original point. The erasure commentary was clearly directed to the actual focus of this conversation: the person deciding what is hell for people. My point ie. The reason I even commmented was based on that. And then people started quoting me as though I am denying human rights so I had to clarify my position.

My position:Critique the human rights abuses you see, just don't presume to speak for women like you're here to save them. They can speak for themselves.

Its not that hard to understand. I am not sure where this is getting lost in translation. The above is a general comment I keep having to clarify because people keep quoting me with weird responses.

You can critique humans rights abuses without essentialising people's experiences and assuming reduced agency. That is the extent of what I am saying. 

Why? why are you preaching at me? 

Edited by freya
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9 minutes ago, freya said:

I agree with all the above. Again why are you telling me this? Why did you quote me? Your original post said something along the lines of women should be able to wear what they want. I agree. I never quoted you to disagree. You quoted me with a response that misrepresented me so I had to clarify my original point. The erasure commentary was clearly directed to the actual focus of this conversation: the person deciding what is hell for people. My point ie. The reason I even commmented was based on that. And then people started quoting me as though I am denying human rights so I had to clarify my position.

My position:Critique the human rights abuses you see, just don't presume to speak for women like you're here to save them. They can speak for themselves.

Its not that hard to understand. I am not sure where this is getting lost in translation. The above is a general comment I keep having to clarify because people keep quoting me with weird responses.

You can critique humans rights abuses without essentialising people's experiences and assuming reduced agency. That is the extent of what I am saying. 

Why? why are you preaching at me? 

I misinterpreted what you said and I get it 

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saudi regime makes me sick and the governments twisted version of islam is just awful I can go on for hours about how everything they do is un-islamic 

I went there 2 summers ago to visit family and learned that naitive saudi women are forced by law to wear niqab... I would see 12 year olds.. actual CHILDREN in niqab and for what? niqab isnt even a required garment at all and it is explicitly stated in islamic text that its only worn by women who want to wear it.... and the worst part is the rich native saudis wear and do whatever tf they want!!!!!!!! 

my country is pretty fucked up too but saudi is next level and its just sad because thats where the religion originated from and where the 2 holiest cities for muslims are. 

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Look at all the fucking entitled people in here telling people from other countries and religions what to do and what not to. bight were not forced to make their staff wear abayas, it is out of RESPECT, which I don't think many of you even know the fucking meaning of. My respect for BTS has quadrupled after this and more so for the company. Majority of muslims chose to wear what they do, out of love for their religion and customs. Women in Saudi are no longer compelled to wear a hijab or even an abaya, but if you see most of the concert video, all of them are. That says something. And they look happy and satisfied, not fucking oppressed like how most of you pain a picture of them. Just accept the fact that everyone is different, rich in culture and beliefs and move the hell on.

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25 minutes ago, Manunited said:

Look at all the fucking entitled people in here telling people from other countries and religions what to do and what not to. bight were not forced to make their staff wear abayas, it is out of RESPECT, which I don't think many of you even know the fucking meaning of. My respect for BTS has quadrupled after this and more so for the company. Majority of muslims chose to wear what they do, out of love for their religion and customs. Women in Saudi are no longer compelled to wear a hijab or even an abaya, but if you see most of the concert video, all of them are. That says something. And they look happy and satisfied, not fucking oppressed like how most of you pain a picture of them. Just accept the fact that everyone is different, rich in culture and beliefs and move the hell on.

well maybe it's not required anymore but their society still compells them to. And just because someone is smiling at a concert it doesn't mean they are happy lol.

 

 

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