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Let's talk about these proposed changes, OH



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#1 Bekki

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 09:37 AM

Hi guys,

 

First of all, I would just like to apologise to anyone that has been offended or upset by the various things that have been said during the past couple of days. I will hold my hands up, this whole situation from start to end could have been handled a lot better from every single one of us, so I really am sorry about what has happened, and how we've all come to this point. But we'd like to rectify our earlier mistakes by making this thread after reading through all of your opinions in regards to this matter. As was mentioned in the earlier clarification thread, a lot of users brought up the suggestion of having a serious discussion about these planned 'rule changes' which we thought was a really good idea. Nothing is set in stone at this moment in time. That's why we really would love to hear some official feedback from those of you willing to get involved to help us decide what would be most beneficial for OH moving forward. So here's what we want to talk about:

1) Any thoughts on the initial rule of disallowing ALL talk of romantic interactions between minors; is there anything you'd change about it? Scrap it completely? Or if you agree with the idea, how would you like to see this enforced? We'd like to know all of your ideas about this.

 

2) Any changes to The Bar section. I saw suggestions of increasing OH's age limit of what we would deem to be a minor (which is currently anyone under the age of 18), being a LOT stricter with the kind of sexual content being posted in there... etc. So feel to contribute if you agree with those or have any other ideas.

There are no plans at this moment in time to remove the section completely, so any improvements to it you'd like to suggest would be preferred instead.

 

3) Any other general suggestions you feel are appropriate to suggest.

Just wanted to point out too...this is not the thread for personal attacks from anyone. We want to move past that and keep this thread civil. If I see any posts going off topic from the purpose of this thread, they'll be removed. Let's try and work together, and have a proper talk about what's best going forward for everyone. Feel free to PM any off topic questions instead.

Hopefully we can all reach a consensus the majority is happy with. So please, feel free to offer any opinions or feedback on the above and we will definitely read and discuss what you have to say. Thanks for getting involved.


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#2 GoldenDivas

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 09:47 AM (Edited by GoldenDivas, 18 March 2019 - 09:51 AM.)

What about a no romantic Shipping thread thread. Because I feel like their is a lot of minors on this site so ofc they are going to ship people around their age not everyone here is adult and someone people do need to realize that.


Also thank you for asking our opinions I really appreciate it
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#3 sure

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 09:49 AM

This is what I had in mind.
  • no sexualizing minors anywhere on the site
  • waiting 3+ months to make an 18+ thread for an idol
    • 18+ must not refer to sexual acts between users and idols
    • 18+ threads must not mention or picture underage members
    • the 3 month rule is because they won't have a lot of content from when they were 18+ when they just turned 18 a day ago
  • discussing ships is only allowed in the OTP / Couple section
    • this includes the gay and lesbian thread no discussion of ships
      • featuring moments between members to support an opinion or speculation on an artist is an exception but don't post excessive member interactions
    • ships including minors should not be viewed salaciously, and sexual references or implications shouldn't be made at all, ever
      • mentioning minors sexually will result in warning points and a permanent ban from the thread in which the comments were made

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#4 ByulHarangBona

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 09:51 AM

1) Scrap the rule. Minors do fall in love too. Just enforce the rule that if users talk about minors sexually, punish them for it

2) Make it 21+ instead. It's just so creepy to see users talking about how they want to do this/do that to the idols the moment they reach 18 year of age. You mention that there is no plan to scrap it completely as of now, but I hope in the near future you can really consider scrapping that section off. Not sure if it is part of the rule, but I see that sometime when a member reach 18 years of age or older, there will still be users posting photos/gifs/videos of those idols before their legal age. Can something too be done about that too?


3) There are times that I seem some users creating threads that are really suggestive in nature about minors. Can something really be done about it?

4) With Pirine and Rich Witch no longer as Mods, can Mods application be open up again?
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#5 yeojins

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 09:52 AM (Edited by yeojins, 18 March 2019 - 09:54 AM.)

In regards to The Bar, it would be nice if something could be done about the users that obviously count down to minors turning 18 in international age, just so they can create an 18+ thread for said person only seconds after they’ve become of age. I can’t speak for everyone, of course, but I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking that’s insanely creepy. They probably haven’t even celebrated their birthday yet before these users are jumping at the opportunity to finally sexualize them in the open without consequence.

I also find it really creepy when 18+ threads are made for an entire group (let’s say ITZY, as an example), when the majority of the members are still underage. Even though talk of the underage members is not allowed in those threads, they’re still loosely associated with it as you’ve got users constantly bringing them up anyways, warning people not to talk about them until their birthday comes (often giving exact dates for when they’ll be “fair game”). It’s less of an issue to me than the above, but it’s still pretty uncomfortable to see.

I’m not sure what I’d propose to address this, but hopefully others have some good ideas.
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#6 BlazingCobaltX

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:02 AM (Edited by BlazingCobaltX, 18 March 2019 - 10:09 AM.)

1) Any thoughts on the initial rule of disallowing ALL talk of romantic interactions between minors

 

Complete removal of this rule. This decision was made in a very rash and tactless manner and it showed as time passed. If mods had actually listened to the arguments of people in the gay thread, this rule wouldn't have been installed in such authoritarian fashion. The gay and lesbian thread have been very good at regulating talk about minors themselves, either dismissing speculation or just briefly brushing over it. Personally I have seen a lot of users point out whenever an idol was minor and that they wouldn't be discussed. Nevermind that the discussions in the gay/lesbian speculation threads have never been of sexual nature and the few people that tried to make it sexual actually moved to The Bar. Same for shipping threads, from what I've seen nothing crosses boundaries. 

 

To accept this rule - which all started with false (!) accusations of pedophilia - would be utterly shameful. Romance and sexuality neither imply sexualisation, let's not incriminate these things. 

 

2) Any changes to The Bar section

 

I don't fundamentally disagree with the existence of The Bar but I've seen a lot of people express discomfort. And I do agree that it is very uncomfortable to see 18+ threads being made for idols that aren't even of legal age. Conversation about minors here should absolutely be restricted and monitored, user reports should be taken seriously. But, I think that's how far we should go. It's already hidden for non-members, right?

 

EDIT: I agree with ByulHarangBona, actually. Make it 21+. 

 

3) Any other general suggestions you feel are appropriate to suggest

 

I think user reports are the way to go here. The rule forbidding sexualisation of minors already exists, doesn't it? Emphasize it again and ask users to be vigilant, and really, we want you to take this seriously. Some users don't know their boundaries but it is important that staff clearly sets a line and adheres to it. Listening to user reports will have you be taken more seriously too. 


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#7 Imperator

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:08 AM

I wonder what country/culture you are discussing here? The age limit for sex in some countries is as low as twelve, whilst others it is as high as 21, while 24 is the age of majority in many other countries.


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#8 HoMaLiAk

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:09 AM

 

1) Any thoughts on the initial rule of disallowing ALL talk of romantic interactions between minors

 

Complete removal of this rule. This decision was made in a very rash and tactless manner and it showed as time passed. If mods had actually listened to the arguments of people in the gay thread, this rule wouldn't have been installed in such authoritarian fashion. The gay and lesbian thread have been very good at regulating talk about minors themselves, either dismissing speculation or just briefly brushing over it. Personally I have seen a lot of users point out whenever an idol was minor and that they wouldn't be discussed. Nevermind that the discussions in the gay/lesbian speculation threads have never been of sexual nature and the few people that tried to make it sexual actually moved to The Bar. Same for shipping threads, from what I've seen nothing crosses boundaries. 

 

To accept this rule - which all started with false (!) accusations of pedophilia - would be utterly shameful. Romance and sexuality neither imply sexualisation, let's not incriminate these things. 

 

2) Any changes to The Bar section

 

I don't fundamentally disagree with the existence of The Bar but I've seen a lot of people express discomfort. And I do agree that it is very uncomfortable to see 18+ threads being made for idols that aren't even of legal age. Conversation about minors here should absolutely be restricted and monitored, user reports should be taken seriously. But, I think that's how far we should go. It's already hidden for non-members right?

 

EDIT: I agree with ByulHarangBona, actually. Make it 21+. 

 

3) Any other general suggestions you feel are appropriate to suggest

 

I think user reports are the way to go here. This rule already exists, right? Emphasize it again and ask users to be vigilant, and really, we want you to take this seriously. Some users don't know their boundaries but it is important that staff clearly sets a line and adheres to it. Listening to user reports will have you be taken more seriously too. 

 

[2]

Knowing mods they will abuse the first rule


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#9 Bekki

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:13 AM

What about a no romantic Shipping thread thread. Because I feel like their is a lot of minors on this site so ofc they are going to ship people around their age not everyone here is adult and someone people do need to realize that.


Also thank you for asking our opinions I really appreciate it

 

Could you elaborate on that just so I can better understand? Like a friendship sorta thing instead?

and you're welcome.

 

This is what I had in mind.

  • no sexualizing minors anywhere on the site
  • waiting 3+ months to make an 18+ thread for an idol
    • 18+ must not refer to sexual acts between users and idols
    • 18+ threads must not mention or picture underage members
    • the 3 month rule is because they won't have a lot of content from when they were 18+ when they just turned 18 a day ago
  • discussing ships is only allowed in the OTP / Couple section
    • this includes the gay and lesbian thread no discussion of ships
      • featuring moments between members to support an opinion or speculation on an artist is an exception but don't post excessive member interactions
    • ships including minors should not be viewed salaciously, and sexual references or implications shouldn't be made at all, ever
      • mentioning minors sexually will result in warning points and a permanent ban from the thread in which the comments were made

 

 

Hey, thanks for all of the suggestions. Some interesting ideas there that we'll definitely talk about.

First bullet point is already a written rule, as is '18+ threads must not mention or picture underage members' so please do report any posts or threads you feel may cross that line so a Mod can take action.

 

1) Scrap the rule. Minors do fall in love too. Just enforce the rule that if users talk about minors sexually, punish them for it

2) Make it 21+ instead. It's just so creepy to see users talking about how they want to do this/do that to the idols the moment they reach 18 year of age. You mention that there is no plan to scrap it completely as of now, but I hope in the near future you can really consider scrapping that section off. Not sure if it is part of the rule, but I see that sometime when a member reach 18 years of age or older, there will still be users posting photos/gifs/videos of those idols before their legal age. Can something too be done about that too?


3) There are times that I seem some users creating threads that are really suggestive in nature about minors. Can something really be done about it?

4) With Pirine and Rich Witch no longer as Mods, can Mods application be open up again?

 

Like I mentioned above, 'there will still be users posting photos/gifs/videos of those idols before their legal age.' that is against the rules so if that's the case in any threads you come across, please do report the posts so they can be removed and dealt with if any of the material indeed features an idol when they were a minor.

 

For number 3, do you have any links to these threads just so I can see? As a precaution, if you ever feel uncomfortable reading a thread concerning a minor, I would recommend reporting it anyway for a Mod to assess it.

 

For number 4, that is something we will definitely need to look into sooner rather than later.

 

Thank you for your input too.

 

In regards to The Bar, it would be nice if something could be done about the users that obviously count down to minors turning 18 in international age, just so they can create an 18+ thread for said person only seconds after they’ve become of age. I can’t speak for everyone, of course, but I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking that’s insanely creepy. They probably haven’t even celebrated their birthday yet before these users are jumping at the opportunity to finally sexualize them in the open without consequence.

I also find it really creepy when 18+ threads are made for an entire group (let’s say ITZY, as an example), when the majority of the members are still underage. Even though talk of the underage members is not allowed in those threads, they’re still loosely associated with it as you’ve got users constantly bringing them up anyways, warning people not to talk about them until their birthday comes (often giving exact dates for when they’ll be “fair game”). It’s less of an issue to me than the above, but it’s still pretty uncomfortable to see.

I’m not sure what I’d propose to address this, but hopefully others have some good ideas.

 

I appreciate the feedback, I honestly agree with this so will definitely bring this up.


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#10 Rose.

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:18 AM

The only thing that I want change within the bar, is limiting the thread on groups where more than half are under 18.
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#11 UMJI MOODS

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:25 AM

The Bar. Raise the age or do away with it entirely.

How about beyond the Mods some kind of voluntary "civilian" review board. Users from diverse backgrounds to run OH changes by to make sure no problems like happened will occur again.
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#12 plutto

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:27 AM

Like I said in the other thread, I feel like it would be better to ban the sexualization of minors/talks about a minor's sex life (I'm assuming that this is already part of the rules, right?) and encourage users to report if they think a minor is being sexualized.

Don't ban discussions about a minor romantic life.
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#13 ByulHarangBona

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:30 AM

 
For number 3, do you have any links to these threads just so I can see? As a precaution, if you ever feel uncomfortable reading a thread concerning a minor, I would recommend reporting it anyway for a Mod to assess it.


I can't find links to #3 for now but I will take your advice and report it in future if I see such threads floating around. Thanks
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#14 Shaandenigma

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:32 AM

The main thing is that the guidelines about appropriate and inappropriate behavior need to be concrete and quantifiable. There needs to be a clear definition of what counts as "sexual content" and it can't be left up to interpretation by general users or mods. That's how this mess started. Implying someone may have a crush or they might be in a relationship doesn't imply anything about what they get up to in bed. When people start talking about positions the idols in question would take or roles they would play or sex acts they would be good at, that clearly crosses the line into sexual territory. I think we can all agree that that is not appropriate discussion regarding minors and shouldn't be tolerated at all since you have no way of actually verifying users ages here. We need to stop conflating romance with sex. Like clearly we would assume if two people are dating or have a crush they would probably also sleep with that person, it's an unspoken conclusion. But that is a far cry from going into detail about a person's sex life. Establishing clear guidelines that you can fall back on when making decisions cuts down on users being able to spin a situation they personally don't like but is still harmless to the idol in question (like saying they might not be straight) into something it isn't with aim of just shutting the topic down.

 

In regards to The Bar, I don't see why a forum that allows minors to open accounts needs an nsfw section unless you can restrict access to it. That just opens you up for all sorts of liabilities. I don't think raising the age for idols to be "fair game" changes that it is inherently creepy to count down the days until you can post all kinds of smut about them without going to jail. I don't think anyone can control that ick factor, but you could say one is only allowed to post content for those purposes if that content is dated after they reach legal adult age. That's pretty much the only thing you can do if you aren't going to abolish the section entirely.

What this thing showed is that there is too much room for people's personal biases to affect what reports and claims are taken seriously or not and how it gets handled by the mods. Everything needs to be clear and concrete.


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#15 GoldenDivas

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:33 AM

Could you elaborate on that just so I can better understand? Like a friendship sorta thing instead?
and you're welcome.


Yes exactly like a friendship kind of ship that way you dont have them worry about romanticizing anything
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#16 Bekki

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:35 AM

1) Any thoughts on the initial rule of disallowing ALL talk of romantic interactions between minors
 
Complete removal of this rule. This decision was made in a very rash and tactless manner and it showed as time passed. If mods had actually listened to the arguments of people in the gay thread, this rule wouldn't have been installed in such authoritarian fashion. The gay and lesbian thread have been very good at regulating talk about minors themselves, either dismissing speculation or just briefly brushing over it. Personally I have seen a lot of users point out whenever an idol was minor and that they wouldn't be discussed. Nevermind that the discussions in the gay/lesbian speculation threads have never been of sexual nature and the few people that tried to make it sexual actually moved to The Bar. Same for shipping threads, from what I've seen nothing crosses boundaries. 
 
To accept this rule - which all started with false (!) accusations of pedophilia - would be utterly shameful. Romance and sexuality neither imply sexualisation, let's not incriminate these things. 
 
2) Any changes to The Bar section
 
I don't fundamentally disagree with the existence of The Bar but I've seen a lot of people express discomfort. And I do agree that it is very uncomfortable to see 18+ threads being made for idols that aren't even of legal age. Conversation about minors here should absolutely be restricted and monitored, user reports should be taken seriously. But, I think that's how far we should go. It's already hidden for non-members, right?
 
EDIT: I agree with ByulHarangBona, actually. Make it 21+. 
 
3) Any other general suggestions you feel are appropriate to suggest
 
I think user reports are the way to go here. The rule forbidding sexualisation of minors already exists, doesn't it? Emphasize it again and ask users to be vigilant, and really, we want you to take this seriously. Some users don't know their boundaries but it is important that staff clearly sets a line and adheres to it. Listening to user reports will have you be taken more seriously too.

 

User reports are taken seriously when a minor is mentioned in The Bar. We take the Inappropriate Language rule very seriously. From mentioning their name in an 18+ forum game, to any form of sexual post written about them, appropriate action will be taken. Posting a picture of an idol when she was a minor on stage too, it will get removed because that is what we don't allow. But you're right, we really do appreciate users being vigilant about using the report button, especially moreso now with lack of manpower. And yes, you have to be a member to view the section, any new threads don't get added to the sidebar, and we also moved it to the bottom of the home page as some members didn't want to see it. But we're always open to any further suggestions too.

Thanks for the reply.
 

I wonder what country/culture you are discussing here? The age limit for sex in some countries is as low as twelve, whilst others it is as high as 21, while 24 is the age of majority in many other countries.

 
We're aware that every country has their own rules to this sort of thing, so we thought it would be a better idea to introduce a OneHallyu forum-wide age we deem as a minor that's in our rulebook for everyone to follow, no matter where you live in the world, if you're posting on OH, this is what you must adhere to.
 

One Hallyu defines a person of underage as being less than 18 International age (NOT Korean age).


Do you think the age should be changed?


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#17 YuMing

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:37 AM

1) please remove this rule, there's no point to it and romance between minors is literally everywhere (irl at school, books, movies, etc)

 

2) agree with making it 18 and 3 months instead, ban conversation about minors sexually (obviously)


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#18 shineestan

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:44 AM

i say abolish the bar, you cannot stop minors from entering it and it's not right.


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#19 •Usagi•

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 10:52 AM (Edited by •Usagi•, 18 March 2019 - 11:27 AM.)

1) To me disallowing the talk about minors isn't a problem, so ok, but I think the rule needs to be well made, if people sexualize minors of course it's not ok, but if the ship thread is mostly about posting photos and interactions, I don't see the problem.

But unlike someone here said, disallowing the ship talk outside the shipping threads is completely unecessary, if the members involved are not minors  there's no problem about it and if you dislike ship talks just ignore the ship talks.

 

2) Since the talk about minors is a problem, I think it's necessary to be more careful with The Bar and users who have been giving trouble by posting minors there, even if they say "they are not sexualizing them" the Bar is about 18+ and idols who are not legal shouldn't even be posted there at first, and the person who keeps posting or giving excuses to do so needs to be punished, be it with (a lot of) wps, suspension or a ban.

 

3)This is something that I've been thinking since I got on this forum, I don't think people who say racist, homophobic things here and also islamphobic things here (this last seems to be a real problem here atm since I've seen several OH muslim users upset by what people have been saying about them in general and this is never ok) are punished as they should be. People on this forum who were saying racist things, like Kami-Truth, took YEARS to be banned, and this is not how it should be, and even if people say that we didn't report him, I did, several times. So I think that the rule against the usual prejudice we see around here should be really harsh and the behaviour shoulnd't be tolerated at all, free speech doesn't mean a green pass to be prejudiced.

 

Oh also, how could I forget. To me, all rules should be written and a mod should not use only his/her opinion to close something, or give wps, they need to have the rule to back them up. I'm saying this because I had a problem with this already and the responses I got, even by explaining the situation several times, were just based on opinion (that I responded) and turned into rudeness at some moment. We all know mods are people too and people have flaws, and this is exacly the reason why they need to have rules backing them up, I'm sure this way things will be easier to them too since they won't have to explain why they did this or that everytime, just copy and paste the rule and done.


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#20 Stinkerbell

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 11:09 AM (Edited by Bekki, 18 March 2019 - 07:37 PM.) noted your suggestions, thank you for the input

1) Disallowing all talk of romantic interactions between minors seems a tad too much imo, even if shippers do make me roll my eyes. I think just banning the sexualization of minors is enough.

2) I think the section should be removed completely. There's no reason for it to be there. But it you won't remove it, then make it 20+ instead of 18+

3) You should ban talk of minors in the plastic surgery thread. I don't know why there even is a ps thread, but there is no reason for people to be talking about minors there


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