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Oxford ends women-only fellowship after university rules that it breaches equality law (the move has prompted a backlash from previous recipients)


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#21 Brittany

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:13 PM (Edited by Brittany, 13 January 2019 - 08:24 PM.)

 

 

Women who are objecting also suffer from the expectations inflicted by patriarchy - the idea that girls are delicate and stupid and can't be trusted to do anything responsible on their own is a damaging stereotype propagated by the masculinist structure that wants women to remain 'pregnant and barefoot' all their life.

But, biologically being a girl (and unless you're childfree), as soon as you get pregnant and start on the process of childrearing - you'll waste about a year per child not being able to work during later months of pregnancy and first months of breast-feeding post-birth. And, it is known even in the most developed countries that women earn about 3/4th to 1/2 of what men earn throughout their life. Taking that into account, do you think getting just two years of extra work-experience makes a substantial difference to your income?

 

This supposed culture is ceasing, if not, has already ceased to exist, at least in the 1st world generation of milennials. I don't feel it at all, and my line of work is in a male dominated field. The 1st world has pretty much abandoned the virtue of pregnancy to populate their societies in favor of immigration. 

 

Also, you should really call to question your values if you think of a year as being ''a waste'' just cause you spent it on childrearing - mayhap it is a hindrance to your career, but to your actual happiness it comes as a privilege. One of the many ways in which capitalism is bastardizing feminism to promote materialism is to popularize the notion of children being hindrances to....exactly, what? Making profits for your company? Sad. 

 

It may make substantial differences should more and more women decide to not have children, which is already happening at a growing rate.


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#22 capital

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:18 AM

This supposed culture is ceasing, if not, has already ceased to exist, at least in the 1st world generation of milennials. I don't feel it at all, and my line of work is in a male dominated field. The 1st world has pretty much abandoned the virtue of pregnancy to populate their societies in favor of immigration. 

 

Also, you should really call to question your values if you think of a year as being ''a waste'' just cause you spent it on childrearing - mayhap it is a hindrance to your career, but to your actual happiness it comes as a privilege. One of the many ways in which capitalism is bastardizing feminism to promote materialism is to popularize the notion of children being hindrances to....exactly, what? Making profits for your company? Sad. 

 

It may make substantial differences should more and more women decide to not have children, which is already happening at a growing rate.

If this supposed culture had ceased in the first world, we won't be having #MeToo or income disparity. And as you said, countries out of West Europe and North America exist, and their immigrant populations who are in First World countries have same values.

 

The prior poster calls military service a 'waste' in terms of loss of work-life, my answer is in relation to that, because pregnancy and child-rearing do too hinder work-life. Both the above-mentioned contexts are duties, and required service to the nation (as you seem to stress in your comment) - in that they are similar.

Also, pregnancy can be traumatic, it can kill you, ravage your body, depress you; child-rearing too is exhausting and a drain on personal freedoms and resources. If one is lucky, then yes both the above duties can give you happiness.

 

Ever heard of job satisfaction? Of finding a calling in a line of work? Firefighters, doctors, teachers save lives. Artists and creative personnels elevate and elucidate the act of being alive. Not everything is corporate - and even those jobs free up people to pursue hobbies like the Gates Foundation helping to eradicate deadly diseases around the world.

 

Women, just like men, have the right to not spend a life in menial housework and drudgery of carework - if they choose self-respect, independence and fulfill themselves with work, why should they be stopped?

If we did live in that ideal world - where women and men have equal share in housework, and men too could carry, then yes, maybe childbirth rates would not be plummeting around the world.


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#23 Brittany

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:11 AM

If this supposed culture had ceased in the first world, we won't be having #MeToo or income disparity. And as you said, countries out of West Europe and North America exist, and their immigrant populations who are in First World countries have same values.
 
The prior poster calls military service a 'waste' in terms of loss of work-life, my answer is in relation to that, because pregnancy and child-rearing do too hinder work-life. Both the above-mentioned contexts are duties, and required service to the nation (as you seem to stress in your comment) - in that they are similar.
Also, pregnancy can be traumatic, it can kill you, ravage your body, depress you; child-rearing too is exhausting and a drain on personal freedoms and resources. If one is lucky, then yes both the above duties can give you happiness.
 
Ever heard of job satisfaction? Of finding a calling in a line of work? Firefighters, doctors, teachers save lives. Artists and creative personnels elevate and elucidate the act of being alive. Not everything is corporate - and even those jobs free up people to pursue hobbies like the Gates Foundation helping to eradicate deadly diseases around the world.
 
Women, just like men, have the right to not spend a life in menial housework and drudgery of carework - if they choose self-respect, independence and fulfill themselves with work, why should they be stopped?
If we did live in that ideal world - where women and men have equal share in housework, and men too could carry, then yes, maybe childbirth rates would not be plummeting around the world.


#MeToo is no proof for discrimination as on a gender equal world there would still be sexual harrassment and sexual assault. Plus with all factors controlled for, the wage gap ceases to exist. Pregnancy isn't valued in the West anymore.

False equivalent there cause military conscription isn't desirable nor is it even chosen as a personal pursuit whereas child rearing is. It's forced so, yes, it is a waste on the part of the individual (tho I am personally in favour of it for men still so long as the country is in need for it).

Work can be just as mentally stressful and tiring as pregnancy. Some fields of work are just as physically dangerous as pregnancy so I don't get why this is being brought up.

You mean the jobs for the elite? The elite is projecting their own scenarios onto the masses. Most jobs are honestly mundane and aren't hindered by childbirth. The kind of jobs hindered by childbirth are the up the ladder corporate jobs for the most part. It won't hinder you if you're an artist or firefighter.

They don't have to?
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#24 capital

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:39 AM

#MeToo is no proof for discrimination as on a gender equal world there would still be sexual harrassment and sexual assault. Plus with all factors controlled for, the wage gap ceases to exist. Pregnancy isn't valued in the West anymore.

False equivalent there cause military conscription isn't desirable nor is it even chosen as a personal pursuit whereas child rearing is. It's forced so, yes, it is a waste on the part of the individual (tho I am personally in favour of it for men still so long as the country is in need for it).

Work can be just as mentally stressful and tiring as pregnancy. Some fields of work are just as physically dangerous as pregnancy so I don't get why this is being brought up.

You mean the jobs for the elite? The elite is projecting their own scenarios onto the masses. Most jobs are honestly mundane and aren't hindered by childbirth. The kind of jobs hindered by childbirth are the up the ladder corporate jobs for the most part. It won't hinder you if you're an artist or firefighter.

They don't have to?

#MeToo isn't about sexual harassment, it is about the hierarchy of gendered power which silences and normalizes abuse.

 

What factors account for wage gap, and how do you negate the fact that it exists on gender lines? Please cite evidence.

 

People do willingly join the army. Citizens also tend to be patriotic.

Do you think all child-rearing is consensual or even something that historicallly women got to opt in for?!

 

No. The factor is choice - you can choose to get pregnant or join a dangerous job. But being a teacher or retail worker (in non gun-proliferation countries or less developed countries) has so much less chance of being killed or maimed for life.

 

Being a teacher is a job for the elite? You know there is this thing called the middle-class?

Also, yes, going to the workplace on public transport is impossible with a 9 month pregnant belly. Doing call-center work (not a job for elites) or retail is impossible when you have morning sickness or have to pee repeatedly, leaving your work station. Tea-pickers cannot balance if they can't bend forward properly with a bump in the front, or stand for hours with swollen feet. And how would a fit-to-burst firefighter slide down the metal pole or climb rickety ladders?!

 

In many places, eg. Japan and South Korea, you do have to - choose motherhood or your job. Girls are outright fired or pressurised to quit (by bosses and husband's family).


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#25 admiralfarizi

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:26 AM (Edited by admiralfarizi, 14 January 2019 - 05:27 AM.)

yes! small little step for equal rights guys! as we all want it! woo hoo!
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#26 Brittany

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:38 AM (Edited by Brittany, 14 January 2019 - 05:51 AM.)

#MeToo isn't about sexual harassment, it is about the hierarchy of gendered power which silences and normalizes abuse.

 

What factors account for wage gap, and how do you negate the fact that it exists on gender lines? Please cite evidence.

 

People do willingly join the army. Citizens also tend to be patriotic.

Do you think all child-rearing is consensual or even something that historicallly women got to opt in for?!

 

No. The factor is choice - you can choose to get pregnant or join a dangerous job. But being a teacher or retail worker (in non gun-proliferation countries or less developed countries) has so much less chance of being killed or maimed for life.

 

Being a teacher is a job for the elite? You know there is this thing called the middle-class?

Also, yes, going to the workplace on public transport is impossible with a 9 month pregnant belly. Doing call-center work (not a job for elites) or retail is impossible when you have morning sickness or have to pee repeatedly, leaving your work station. Tea-pickers cannot balance if they can't bend forward properly with a bump in the front, or stand for hours with swollen feet. And how would a fit-to-burst firefighter slide down the metal pole or climb rickety ladders?!

 

In many places, eg. Japan and South Korea, you do have to - choose motherhood or your job. Girls are outright fired or pressurised to quit (by bosses and husband's family).

 

You mean like how the catholic church has been for centuries towards young boys? Again, even in a gender equal world, this ''hierarchy'' of power would still exist. Do you honestly think that it would be impossible for #MeToo to happen in a gender equal world? Nope. Even some men spoke up about #MeToo (as victims).

 

The burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove that something exists. Evidence has to be brought up by you, only then will I have it negated. 

 

Willful joining isn't wasting then. Don't be sly and use history to prove some nonexistent point - as of now, child rearing is something that women are choosing to do. 

 

Honestly? You really don't get the reality of the situation here. Capitalists have officially brainwashed the likes of you into glamorizing the idea of a ''career'' as if it were the goal for happiness. Maybe for SOME, but certainly not for the majority of masses. Majority just ''like'' their job. Kinda how like we like what we're studying in uni. But I don't think that most university students have ever had this grand dream of studying Accounting 101. It's just cool.

 

Feminism is not only so marketable, but convenient to the corporatist cause. I don't know about you, but people DO complain about overworking and having less time for themselves and their family. What do the elderly tend to regret? Not spending enough time with family and friends, they hardly ever regret ''working too much'' or having failed to climb up the ladder as they believe that they should have. Americans like the idea of retiring early and traveling the world instead. People who actually DO have kids don't see them as ''hindrances''. Only those who A.) Don't plan on having them but use them for the feminist cause as some sort of ''back up'' point or B.) Young adults who have yet to think about having them. They're only ''hindrances'' if they make for a financial burden, and atm it's like you're complaining about people being financially oppressed just cause they had children. 

 

That wasn't the point, lel, you deliberately spoke of the dangers behind pregnancy to add to the negativity behind it - but those dangers are rare; hence I did the same with jobs. I'm invalidating your point. 

 

Yes? Being pregnant is difficult. I meant it in the long term sense. Like I don't think you've actually ever been around pregnant women while they working, at least not enough to experience what it is that they were really feeling at that time for you to be victimizing them like this, lmao. They're not in a disadvantaged position or however you'd like to see them as relative to your own agenda. They're just normal women happy that they're having children soon, and well aware that their physical state will slightly compromise them. It's just extra work but really, you're normal for the most part until you hit your 5th month or so. Then you take maternity leave (I believe that maternity leave should be at least 20 weeks).

 

Yea? It's wrong. How is that relevant to this, tho?

 

Fools, the lot of you. Don't let capitalism/corporatism deprive you of the source of happiness that has been constant over time.


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#27 capital

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:35 AM

You mean like how the catholic church has been for centuries towards young boys? Again, even in a gender equal world, this ''hierarchy'' of power would still exist. Do you honestly think that it would be impossible for #MeToo to happen in a gender equal world? Nope. Even some men spoke up about #MeToo (as victims).

 

The burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove that something exists. Evidence has to be brought up by you, only then will I have it negated. 

 

Willful joining isn't wasting then. Don't be sly and use history to prove some nonexistent point - as of now, child rearing is something that women are choosing to do. 

 

Honestly? You really don't get the reality of the situation here. Capitalists have officially brainwashed the likes of you into glamorizing the idea of a ''career'' as if it were the goal for happiness. Maybe for SOME, but certainly not for the majority of masses. Majority just ''like'' their job. Kinda how like we like what we're studying in uni. But I don't think that most university students have ever had this grand dream of studying Accounting 101. It's just cool.

 

Feminism is not only so marketable, but convenient to the corporatist cause. I don't know about you, but people DO complain about overworking and having less time for themselves and their family. What do the elderly tend to regret? Not spending enough time with family and friends, they hardly ever regret ''working too much'' or having failed to climb up the ladder as they believe that they should have. Americans like the idea of retiring early and traveling the world instead. People who actually DO have kids don't see them as ''hindrances''. Only those who A.) Don't plan on having them but use them for the feminist cause as some sort of ''back up'' point or B.) Young adults who have yet to think about having them. They're only ''hindrances'' if they make for a financial burden, and atm it's like you're complaining about people being financially oppressed just cause they had children. 

 

That wasn't the point, lel, you deliberately spoke of the dangers behind pregnancy to add to the negativity behind it - but those dangers are rare; hence I did the same with jobs. I'm invalidating your point. 

 

Yes? Being pregnant is difficult. I meant it in the long term sense. Like I don't think you've actually ever been around pregnant women while they working, at least not enough to experience what it is that they were really feeling at that time for you to be victimizing them like this, lmao. They're not in a disadvantaged position or however you'd like to see them as relative to your own agenda. They're just normal women happy that they're having children soon, and well aware that their physical state will slightly compromise them. It's just extra work but really, you're normal for the most part until you hit your 5th month or so. Then you take maternity leave (I believe that maternity leave should be at least 20 weeks).

 

Yea? It's wrong. How is that relevant to this, tho?

 

Fools, the lot of you. Don't let capitalism/corporatism deprive you of the source of happiness that has been constant over time.

The Catholic Church is one institution, whose clergy are meant to be celibate and override every other social, legal consideration in devotion to the church - the parameters of the child sexual abuse that went on there is pertinent to a different area.

#MeToo was spoken about by mainly women, against overwhelming majority of men in numerous fields -  a generalized social hierarchy. And #MeToo isn't only about the assault but stresses on the base which diminishes the ability of the victim to articulate and denigrates their position in society so that their requirement of punishment is counted as insignificant in the face of importance of the perpetrators.

A tip: read into Althusser's explanation of Ideological State Apparatuses.

 

You are the one who outright wrote that other factors controlled, the wage gap ceases. So you provide the evidence?

 

Wilful joining has to be a choice, but child-rearing has to be a joint choice too - it shouldn't be something a woman only has to shoulder if she is not a single parent. Pregnancy and child-rearing is still, even in the present not a choice for most women around the world - even in 1st World countries. Ever heard of reproductive coercion? Of forced marriages? Why do you think the Catholic Church forbids even contraception? Or Repubs try to ban women from getting prophylactics from Planned Parenthood and don't allow sex-ed in schools? If women were so willing to have babies - why the attempt to not let them make informed decisions on their reproductive ability?

(Using history is sly? Well, let me just tell you - Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.”)

 

You obviously don't know anything about 2nd Wave Feminism and the battles fought, do you?

Feminism is the bane of capitalist structure - which envisions the world in terms of capital, produce and productive work, and unsees the significance of unpaid housework by women.

People study and work for what it gives them - economic stability (you know, the thing Millenials lament they lack and hence cannot support a family?) and satisfaction. Some people really do study for a dream - like medicine, mechanical engineering, journalism. Just cause you hate your syllabus or line of job, doesn't mean we all do.

Women do lament having to give up their work, the satisfaction in doing work, the friend-circle in the workplace. (Kim Ji Young born 1982 by Cho Nam-Joo - read into it). People also regret having kids, both men and women do. (https://mothership.s...happiest-woman/)

 

Dangers in pregnancy aren't rare. And in the poorest countries - those whose condition mimics the historical situation it is dire even now. Women can get infections, tears, fistulas that mean they cannot control pee or poop and may even poop from the vaginal entrance. Birthing while undeveloped young or malnutritioned can wreck the bones, lead to life-long pain and mobility problems. This is just data for maternal mortality - https://data.unicef....rnal-mortality/

Also LOL at you invalidating my points on pregnancy. My aunt, uncle, grand-aunt, grand-uncle, cousin sister are all gynecologists - they own a nursing home.

Me the youngest cousin, have been around six sister-in-law and sisters who've had kids. Plus of course, close friends. My 'agenda' is derived from their testimonies. Ever seen a person with gestational diabetes? Ever had a friend with abnormal high blood pressure with pre-eclampsia?

 

If anything, you're the stubborn fool who is unwilling to educate herself in historical and medical facts, and rambles on with deluded certainty on topics you know nothing about. Also, learn to debate with cordiality before setting down to present your opinions on a public message board.


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#28 letsrewindit

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:20 AM

People do willingly join the army. Citizens also tend to be patriotic.
Do you think all child-rearing is consensual or even something that historicallly women got to opt in for?!


There is no willingness in mandatory conscription. You either serve the army or you end up in fucking jail. How is there willingness?!


Child rearing is a choice, at least in my country. Abortion is legal and accessible in my country. + More and more couples are going childless in my country That is why my country is having an aging population problem.
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#29 letsrewindit

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:30 AM (Edited by letsrewindit, 14 January 2019 - 10:36 AM.)


You think any of what you wrote is that simple? Why don't men demand to be treated like women (no mandatory conscription) instead of women being treated like men (everyone has mandatory conscription)? They aren't demanding women be forced because they feel like their being discriminated against. They're doing it to punish and silence women for asking for rights. This is why it's always brought up as a counter argument to things like wage gaps or maternity rights.

You think men want forced conscription in the first place? Obviously, circumstances forced the country to have forced conscription. What people want is these men who undergo mandatory conscription to have some benefits in recognition for their service. But some loud and powerful dumbass have to yell "inequality" when we try to propose some benefits to men who served in mandatory conscription. Then the same group of woman won't even want to have mandatory conscription for woman
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#30 TheBigMermaid

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:02 AM

You think any of what you wrote is that simple? Why don't men demand to be treated like women (no mandatory conscription) instead of women being treated like men (everyone has mandatory conscription)? They aren't demanding women be forced because they feel like their being discriminated against. They're doing it to punish and silence women for asking for rights. This is why it's always brought up as a counter argument to things like wage gaps or maternity rights.

Exactly this. And I doubt it's the women who are most insistent that there is conscription in the first place. 


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#31 capital

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:23 AM

There is no willingness in mandatory conscription. You either serve the army or you end up in fucking jail. How is there willingness?!


Child rearing is a choice, at least in my country. Abortion is legal and accessible in my country. + More and more couples are going childless in my country That is why my country is having an aging population problem.

And as I said, I'm against mandatory conscription. I wrote, that patriotic citizens do willingly join the army - not everyone loves it, not everyone hates it.

But, in light of clear and present danger, some strong suggestion to the populace to train for a possible emergency condition - with option to take non-combative positions - should be the system.

 

Well, good thing that your country is progressive. I hope like women are refraining from pregnancy+childcare, the men too gain the option to say no to conscription.


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