My Everything 23,397 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Matt Dubay and Lauren Wells had broken up by the time she discovered she was pregnant. The two had only dated for a few months and had polar opposite views on parenthood: Wells wanted to keep the child; Dubay didn't want to become a father. When the state of Michigan pressed him to pay child support, he refused. The resulting legal battle became one of the most high-profile cases on men's reproductive rights to date. But since the case, which reached its ten-year anniversary this year, not much has changed. In court, then 25-year-old Dubay put forward a novel legal argument: When a child is unplanned, men should have an equivalent right to a woman's right to abortion. In other words, women can choose if they want to opt out of the legal and financial responsibilities that come with parenthood—by aborting a fetus—and therefore, so should men. To be clear, Dubay wasn't arguing that a man should actually be able to decide whether or not a woman should have an abortion. Rather, if a woman decides to have the child, the man involved should have the ability to opt out of the legal obligations of fatherhood. That means no legal relationship with the child and no liability to pay child support for the next 18 years. The presiding judge ruled against Dubay, noting: "If chivalry is not dead, its viability is gravely imperiled by the plaintiff in this case." The case was dubbed "the male equivalent of Roe v. Wade," with both the National Center for Men and the National Organization for Women chiming in as a media circus unfolded. "Roe v. Wade gave women control of their reproductive lives, but nothing in the law changed for men," Mel Feit, Director of the National Center for Men, wrote in a press release at the time. "Women now have control of their lives after an unplanned conception but men are routinely forced to give up control, forced to be financially responsible for choices only women are permitted to make, forced to relinquish reproductive choice." Kim Gandy, then president of the National Organization of Women, told CNN, "Men have been trying to get out of responsibility for their children for years. This one shouldn't get away with it." Dubay, for his part, would explain his side of the story in a live interview on Dr. Phil:"Forcing me to be a father financially, mentally, and physically is definitely not something that I feel is fair," he said on the show. When grilled about the elephant in the room—contraception—Dubay said they had used condoms initially but not towards the end of their brief relationship. Wells also told him she was on the pill. By the time of that interview, Wells had given birth. She stayed well out of the limelight but issued a written statement saying her focus was on providing a nurturing home for baby Elizabeth. "I am disappointed that Matt has decided not to participate in Elizabeth's life so far, and has instead chosen to contest any responsibility from our consensual actions last year," she wrote. "I believe life begins at conception and blossoms. I take responsibility for my acts and will do my best, as an adult and a mother, to protect and provide for our daughter." Dubay appealed, but was again denied. Nancy Gibbs, then a staff writer and now editor of TIME, described the case as a "legal stunt"—but pointed out that "as a way of calling attention to double standards and unintended consequences, the campaign makes sense." In other words, Dubay never had a shot at winning, but the case sparked a debate worth having. Should men have as much of a right to control their reproductive lives and financial futures as women do? On the one hand, there's the argument that there should be a level playing field—women and men should both have the right to opt out of parenthood if they want to. A woman can choose whether to have an abortion to keep the child, without the man involved interfering with her choice. However, if she does decide to keep the child, the man should have the right to choose whether he wants to become a father and take on the legal rights and responsibilities that come with that. Both should be able to decide what they want to do, based on their own individual circumstances and beliefs, and neither should be able to interfere with the other person's decision. Essentially, reproductive equality and autonomy, for both genders. The way this would work in practice is a little murkier. Frances Goldscheider, a now-retired sociology professor at Brown University, was one of the first academics to put forward a proposal for what she called a "financial abortion." It would work something like this: A man would be notified when a child was accidentally conceived, and he would have the opportunity to decide whether or not to undertake the legal rights and responsibilities of parenthood. The decision would need to be made in a short window of time and once the man had made his decision, he would be bound by it for life. This means a guy couldn't decide to opt out of fatherhood a few years down the track when it no longer suited him. The decision would also be recorded legally—perhaps on the child's birth certificate, or in a court order. But critics point out that equal reproductive rights for men and women are simply not realistic. As the judges in Dubay's case concluded, a woman's right to abortion and a man's right to reject fatherhood are not quite analogous. With abortion, a woman decides whether or not to bring a child into existence. The right of the child to a legal relationship with his or her father—and in particular, the right to financial support to help with the child's upbringing—should trump the right of a man to opt out. Plus, at the end of the day, both parents were responsible for the conception of the child, so both should take responsibility for the child, should that child be born. Susan Appleton, a professor at the Washington University School of Law, has written extensively on reproduction and regret, most recently for the Yale Journal of Law and Feminism. She told me that in family law, there is a strong policy of "personal responsibility." Or, in other words, "Dubay made the choice to engage in heterosexual intercourse without using contraception himself; he assumed the risk of becoming a parent when he ejaculated." Appleton teaches cases like Dubay v. Wells to students in her Family Law course who she says love discussing it. "They appreciate Dubay's arguments about unfairness and inequality, but they almost always reach the conclusion that no other outcome is possible." Ten years later, the status quo that Dubay challenged in Dubay v. Wells remains in place today. And there haven't been many similar lawsuits since, in part because of the precedent set by the outcome of Dubay v. Wells. Politicians have also declined to propose legislative changes that would allow men to have reproductive rights, perhaps due to the assumption that doing so would open the proverbial floodgates and result in an unprecedented number of men opting out of fatherhood. For the foreseeable future, at least, the idea of a man's right to choose will continue to gather dust in the legal history books. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkb9n/should-men-be-able-to-opt-out-of-fatherhood?utm_source=vicefbus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atulvells 2,265 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 i believe both individuals should have equal rights to decide on if they should have a child or not, however, a women should be allowed to decide if she wants to have an abortion or not, and a woman only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighterxx 12,204 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 they should but i got even better idea, lets use condom and pills eh? no child would wish to live without mother or father Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hormones 1,612 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Interesting read but I think this should only apply if the condom/contraceptive didn't work. A guy should not be a father if he doesn't want to be, because he might resent the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium 4,237 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 it's probably coming anyway but some people really hate dealing with the consequences of their actions-it's like they're forced to have unprotected sex or sex at gun point and have no other choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoSHE 874 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 A woman's right to abortion and a man's right to reject fatherhood are not quite analogous. With abortion, a woman decides whether or not to bring a child into existence. The right of the child to a legal relationship with his or her father—and in particular, the right to financial support to help with the child's upbringing—should trump the right of a man to opt out. Plus, at the end of the day, both parents were responsible for the conception of the child, so both should take responsibility for the child, should that child be born. "Dubay made the choice to engage in heterosexual intercourse without using contraception himself; he assumed the risk of becoming a parent when he ejaculated." This about sums up my feelings right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asta 3 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Maybe in theory a good idea, since I am very much fo equalitiy. But as the article stated, it is not really comparable and in the end as regulations it would not be really viable. Since it would very much need regulatory supervision it will always need time and that is not possible. And what about if the partners never talked about children or at some point they were for children and after a breakup they suddenly don´t want anymore. Can the man than also refuse? Nah, that concept as a whole would need so much regulations and individual audit for a thing that only lasts a few month - since men cannot get longer time to decide than women to abort - it is simply not workable, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeystan 10,291 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I think it’s more frowned on for men to take a step back from childcare, even if they don’t want to be physically present because it doesn’t take 9 months for them to bring one about and they can get as many women pregnant as they like while women conceive a few times over their lifetime and it’s a strain on the body and how they live their life for nine months, and some women believe in life from conception, so they wouldn’t get an abortion even if not emotionally, mentally, or financially prepared. In the instance where he clearly doesn’t want it from conception, then I think here’s a legal precedence he can waive his rights but it always seems so much easier for a man to choose to step away. When a woman doesn’t want to have the child, she physically has to remove it from her body. When a man doens’t it want it, he can just...peace out... Even taking the use of contraceptives or lack thereof into consideration. And this dude does know birth control isn’t 100%, right? They both should’ve kept using condoms, especially him, since he didn’t want a child. Perhaps they should come up with a financial reliance term or something like 1-3 years so the woman might have a chance to get on her feet after pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
versace 9,204 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 i think the body autonomy of a women and the legal responsibilities of parents to a child should not be equated to one another... a child has been brought into the world.. both parents if able should be responsible for caring for the child.. giving parents the right to opt out of the equation is not beneficial to the child.. you're not legally obligated to like or love your child but you should be responsible for its well being if yall consented to sex.. people can be so selfish.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Bear 9,461 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Condoms would have been cheaper than fighting a case with a bs stance and an abortion isn’t even in same playing field as paying child support, some men really are just asshats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alm94 4,387 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 but men do opt out of being fathers? From my experience child support doesn't actually kick in that fast. My sis is still trying to get child support from her ex husband and they've been splt for years. In their case when they married they had a child and had more and he already had the position of father. I think it is totally fair in these situations for women to get money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feary 2,115 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Like others said, it sounds good in theory, but in reality, I don't think it's quite in the same ballpark honestly. At the end of the day, once a baby is born both parents should automatically be obligated to take care of the child, man or woman, they both played a part in its conception. The only way out is through abortion or adoption, and since not everyone believes or can agree in that, the only fair way is for the participant to pay child support who doesn't want to be involved. I say this is the fairest way because this way there is no harm being done to the child who didn't choose to born. Parents don't get a say to be selfish after making a baby and expecting no responsibility. (Women pay child support too btw, not just men). Either way, that baby needs to be taken care of. So-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atreyuavenged 162 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Such a tricky issue that has troubles going both ways. Their are a multitude of cases where the guy is a deadbeat, an asshole, etc...but I'm sure their are cases where the men don't want to be a father, are not ready or has more to lose and the female tricks him some how. As for opting out of fatherhood in general, I don't think they should be able to in most cases. The guy should know what he's doing and if he doesn't know, then he shouldn't be doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freya 7,202 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Opting out of fatherhood should be possible honestly. Yes contraceptives exist but plenty of people have gotten pregnant in spite of them. The woman has the right to choose whether or not she has the child and no one should challenge that but if she keeps the child regardless of the other parent's wishes then she shouldn't expect any money. This is assuming of course that the abortion option is a viable one. Women having to keep children because abortion was too expensive or not possible shouldnt have to bear all the costs of the child when it took 2 to make one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss.Miss 8,896 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 A man's right regarding his body only allows him some choice up till conception whilst a woman's rights on her own body allows some choices after conception. However the child that comes as the result of both their choices becomes the responsibility of both and since that child never got to choose then it's only fair that both be held accountable. That's the way I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jstarfully 798 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Newsflash: Condoms can break it's probably coming anyway but some people really hate dealing with the consequences of their actions-it's like they're forced to have unprotected sex or sex at gun point and have no other choice Condoms would have been cheaper than fighting a case with a bs stance and an abortion isn’t even in same playing field as paying child support, some men really are just asshats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlkpopfan 2,451 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Yes. It's called a condom or a vasectomy. If you don't want to have a child, protect yourself. And the whole "But but you can wear a condom and still get pregnant" or "but she poked a hole in it" bs excuses is only valid in a very very very tiny % of cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urhandsrnaughty 2,648 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Fatherhood IS optional. Men can use condoms, pull out, only have sex with women on pills. The chances of these three things all failing at the same time is hiiiiiiiiiiiiighly unlikely. So, yes, they do have the option to opt out since they have the option to not get someone pregnant in the first place. However, once the baby is on the way, then fuck no. Everyone should be held accountable for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mingming 'Beto' Carlson 561 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 No. For the sake of the child, a man should not be able to opt out of fatherhood so easily. An overwhelming amount of criminals come from a single mother household and this in turn ties into greater states of poverty and greater states of poverty = more crime. Am I saying that being raised by a single parent will absolutely f*ck a child up? No, not always. Does being raised by two parents guarantee a life of success and happiness free from hardship? Nope! Of course things aren't so black and white. There are a ton of other factors that come into play but speaking in terms of reducing the chances of raising screwed up children into screwed up adults, ideally you would want the child with two parental figures. Some psychologists say it must be a man and a woman but I'm not opening up that particular can of worms in this thread xD Of course this is all taking into consideration that it's decided that they'll have the baby and that the father isn't some abusive lunatic or drunkard or whatever etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jstarfully 798 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Fatherhood IS optional. Men can use condoms, pull out, only have sex with women on pills. The chances of these three things all failing at the same time is hiiiiiiiiiiiiighly unlikely. So, yes, they do have the option to opt out since they have the option to not get someone pregnant in the first place. However, once the baby is on the way, then fuck no. Everyone should be held accountable for their actions. First of all pulling out is bullshit and doesn't work and please don't even mention it among condoms or the contraceptive pill. Second of all, condoms break. I never use expired condoms, check the lube we use doesn't degrade them, and my boyfriend knows how to put them on. We did everything properly, and yet we've had a condom break during sex about three times. If I estimate we've had sex 50 times, that's a 6% failure rate. Anyway third of all, the guy either has to believe the girl when she says she takes the pill and risk her lying or being irresponsible with them (missing days, or just straight up lying) or he stands over her as she takes them which isn't exactly good for the relationship. There is no fool-proof method of having pregnancy-free sex. By choosing to have sex you accept the risks. So if you happen to be in a situation where the condom breaks and the girl forgot or lied about taking her pills then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riserise 1,475 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Opting out of fatherhood should be possible honestly. Yes contraceptives exist but plenty of people have gotten pregnant in spite of them. The chance that someone gets pregnant if they use the pill and condom is quite small. But if they did, I agree that the man should be able to opt out of fatherhood. Very often men want to have sex without a condom, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium 4,237 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Newsflash: Condoms can break you don't have to write so big, your words will still show up in regular size font, jaysus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Quatro 1,441 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 It's not quite the same and as it is women have more protection and rights but also more responsibilities. However it does feel pretty unfair as the father opinion is relegated, like if he wanted to have a kid and the women doesn't she still has the right to do whatever she likes. Ultimately they shouldn't had conceived a baby in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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