At what point did KPop stop trying to appeal to the Japanese public and just want for their fanbases?

[DocumentaLy]

Years ago, back in the age of BoA and TVXQ, they made songs that blended into the fabric of Japanese music. This was also largely the case at the turn of the decade when Hallyu exploded in Japan. But since then, it's been different. But at what point did this happen? 

[satoori]

They're doing similar things in the Western market too.

e.g. BTS are not changing their sound, concepts, and/or language(to English) for the general public.

 

 

edit: At what point? When companies realized they can make more then enough money with big and loyal fandoms. Plus still get attention from the media. 2012-2013.

[Ruth Lehus]

IDK

#Helio

[Shun]

Since BoA peaked

[whysoserious?]

Fandoms are more profitable in the long run. Public doesn't buy your albums and go to your concerts.

[satoori]

Fandoms are more profitable in the long run. Public doesn't buy your albums and go to your concerts.

This.

 

 

 

Plus it's not easy pleasing the JPN public. They have to many wants. A kpop group can waste years trying to conform and satisfy them. 

 

They're better off being themselves and attracting fans.

 

edit: At least they still sing in Japanese. 

[timpa]

When they saw Jpop groups selling millions of a cd with no real public following of their songs?

[DocumentaLy]

They're doing similar things in the Western market too.

e.g. BTS are not changing their sound, concepts, and/or language(to English) for the general public.

 

 

edit: At what point? When companies realized they can make more then enough money with big and loyal fandoms. Plus still get attention from the media. 2012-2013.

 

But is it better to make money as a niche act or to be an act that the public knows, which leads to more opportunities, like drama themes, movie themes, CM songs, etc?

[satoori]

But is it better to make money as a niche act or to be an act that the public knows, which leads to more opportunities, like drama themes, movie themes, CM songs, etc?

 

There's really not much left in that "etc." tbh. The majority of Korean groups can make quick money (a large sum) with just touring and fanmeets. 

 

 

When they saw Jpop groups selling millions of a cd with no real public following of their songs?

interesting point

[DocumentaLy]

There's really not much left in that "etc." tbh. The majority of Korean groups can make quick money (a large sum) with just touring and fanmeets. 

 

 

interesting point

 

Do they not care at all about transcending the KPop label, like BoA and TVXQ did? Because if they were able to do so, they would probably be able to sustain a career in Japan past their expiration date in the Korean industry.

[whysoserious?]

This.

 

 

 

Plus it's not easy pleasing the JPN public. They have to many wants. A kpop group can waste years trying to conform and satisfy them. 

 

They're better off being themselves and attracting fans.

 

edit: At least they still sing in Japanese. 

Yes.

And for some reasons, I feel that Japanese music market isn't as obsessed with "GP validation" as Kpop lol

[satoori]

1. Do they not care at all about transcending the KPop label, like BoA and TVXQ did?

 

2. Because if they were able to do so, they would probably be able to sustain a career in Japan past their expiration date in the Korean industry.

 

1. Boa and TVXQ conformed and assimilated. Culturally Koreans don't really care about the Japanese public opinions...even more so nowadays...

 

2. They do sustain a career with just their fandoms in Japan. Many groups who are not as active/relevant in Korea anymore are still doing activities and making money in Japan. (e.g. 2pm, etc.)

 

 

Yes.

And for some reasons, I feel that Japanese music market isn't as obsessed with "GP validation" as Kpop lol

I have this feelin too^^

[DocumentaLy]

Yes.

And for some reasons, I feel that Japanese music market isn't as obsessed with "GP validation" as Kpop lol

 

It definitely is. That is partially why idol groups are always criticized for being in the media but lacking hits that that the public actually knows. This has led to Oricon adding a digital singles chart, in an effort to make their charts reflect more of what the public is listening to. It's also partially why idol fans are generally looked down upon. Sure these acts sell millions, but they're selling them to a niche audience. It's why you'll have an act that sells well not getting on a show like Kohaku Uta Gassen, while an act that the public knows will get on. I'm reminded now of how all the 48 groups except AKB have been dropped from Kohaku due to their lack of public interest, even though they were selling well still, much better than the acts that filled their spots. It's also why acts who get big tie-ins are generally ones that the public favors, as opposed to ones that cater to a niche.

[satoori]

It definitely is. That is partially why idol groups are always criticized for being in the media but lacking hits that that the public actually knows. This has led to Oricon adding a digital singles chart, in an effort to make their charts reflect more of what the public is listening to. It's also partially why idol fans are generally looked down upon. Sure these acts sell millions, but they're selling them to a niche audience. It's why you'll have an act that sells well not getting on a show like Kohaku Uta Gassen, while an act that the public knows will get on. I'm reminded now of how all the 48 groups except AKB have been dropped from Kohaku due to their lack of public interest, even though they were selling well still, much better than the acts that filled their spots. It's also why acts who get big tie-ins are generally ones that the public favors, as opposed to ones that cater to a niche.

 

48 groups still making more money compared to many other acts.

 

Pop idols are criticized in all countries¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

A new digital chart is interesting. Majority of the time popular idols will end up doing decent to good on digitals charts too. I suspect 48 groups will too eventually.

 

Kohaku? That's the same show Twice were invited too right?

[Heekkie]

It definitely is. That is partially why idol groups are always criticized for being in the media but lacking hits that that the public actually knows. This has led to Oricon adding a digital singles chart, in an effort to make their charts reflect more of what the public is listening to. It's also partially why idol fans are generally looked down upon. Sure these acts sell millions, but they're selling them to a niche audience. It's why you'll have an act that sells well not getting on a show like Kohaku Uta Gassen, while an act that the public knows will get on. I'm reminded now of how all the 48 groups except AKB have been dropped from Kohaku due to their lack of public interest, even though they were selling well still, much better than the acts that filled their spots. It's also why acts who get big tie-ins are generally ones that the public favors, as opposed to ones that cater to a niche.

 

So .... many Jpop idol groups failed to appeal to Japanese public but you expecting Kpop groups to pursue it?

 

[DocumentaLy]

48 groups still making more money compared to many other acts.

 

Pop idols are criticized in all countries¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

A new digital chart is interesting. Majority of the time popular idols will end up doing decent to good on digitals charts too. I suspect 48 groups will too eventually.

 

Kohaku? That's the same show Twice were invited too right?

 

But what is the point of the group making money when the members are paid a base salary that is not at all related to their sales? Then there is the extra work that has to be done as an idol, like handshake events. Would it not be better to be a successful singer-songwriter who gets actual public hits, gets royalties from those hits, and only is in the media when they have a release to promote? Plus there is the opportunity to create songs for other acts, creating another stream of royalties.

 

Idols don't do well digitally in Japan. They do well physically, because of the bonuses attached, like handshake tickets. Digital bonuses don't exist. Idol fans aren't going to buy the music just for the music like a member of the general public is.

 

Yes. TWICE was on in an effort to attract the youth market, something NHK has been trying to do for years. I wouldn't be surprised if BTS was on this year in the same capacity.

So .... many Jpop idol groups failed to appeal to Japanese public but you expecting Kpop groups to pursue it?

 

 

Why not? It's been done before.

[1Q98]

tvxq was known to have the biggest fandom ever, so their long sustaining career in japan very much depends on their fandom, i mean i don't even see their recent japanese songs doing great on digital charts, even bts's one is doing better.

 

boA has been flopping for years in Japan, she is not bringing in those album and concert sales, she had a great peak, but i don't think she even performed a solo concert in tokyo dome before despite her million sales so what's the point.

 

 

if having fandom only, allows you to hold dome tour and sell albums, i don't see anything wrong with it. 

[Heekkie]

But what is the point of the group making money when the members are paid a base salary that is not at all related to their sales? Then there is the extra work that has to be done as an idol, like handshake events. Would it not be better to be a successful singer-songwriter who gets actual public hits, gets royalties from those hits, and only is in the media when they have a release to promote? Plus there is the opportunity to create songs for other acts, creating another stream of royalties.

 

Idols don't do well digitally in Japan. They do well physically, because of the bonuses attached, like handshake tickets. Digital bonuses don't exist. Idol fans aren't going to buy the music just for the music like a member of the general public is.

 

Yes. TWICE was on in an effort to attract the youth market, something NHK has been trying to do for years. I wouldn't be surprised if BTS was on this year in the same capacity.

 

 

Why not? It's been done before.

 

Not right away.

Like you said idol fandom in Japan are niche market, but most Kpop groups don't even have 1% fans of this niche fandom, so instead of chasing to reach even 1 % of this niche fandom you want them to go to Japanese public straight away? That is not how it work, you should build foundation first, which is fandom, after you build strong foundation then you can start to branching out, public is fickle but fandom stay with you for a long time.

This is what exactly what Loona's company did in South Korea, they don't care about public, they build fandom 2 years before Loona officially debut by releasing solo and sub unit of every members and hundreds of youtube contents about Loona's member activity, they slowly build Loona's fandom, after Loona have fandom then they will go releasing public friendly song. After you born you don't go running around, you creeping and crawling to walking and you start running.

There is a group who has public approval but lack of fandom since debut, but this is rare, and guess what, they didn't last long, when public didn't like their song they have no fandom to back up their sales.

 

[sergel]

I noticed it the last few years too. Public opinion of artists is generally fickle. Once your 15 minutes of fame are up you're back to where you started, albeit with more fans.

 

Dedicated fans are enough to sustain singers. And in interviews with many singers they always mention the love and support of their fans, not the general public or anything. Plus, it's harder and sometimes pointless to appeal to the general public since you never know what they will like.

[satoori]

 

 

tvxq was known to have the biggest fandom ever, so their long sustaining career in japan very much depends on their fandom, i mean i don't even see their recent japanese songs doing great on digital charts, even bts's one is doing better.

 

boA has been flopping for years in Japan, she is not bringing in those album and concert sales, she had a great peak, but i don't think she even performed a solo concert in tokyo dome before despite her million sales so what's the point.

 

 

if having fandom only, allows you to hold dome tour and sell albums, i don't see anything wrong with it. 

Not right away.

Like you said idol fandom in Japan are niche market, but most Kpop groups don't even have 1% fans of this niche fandom, so instead of chasing to reach even 1 % of this niche fandom you want them to go to Japanese public straight away? That is not how it work, you should build foundation first, which is fandom, after you build strong foundation then you can start to branching out, public is fickle but fandom stay with you for a long time.

[...]

There is a group who has public approval but lack of fandom since debut, but this is rare, and guess what, they didn't last long, when public didn't like their song they have no fandom to back up their sales.
 

I noticed it the last few years too. Public opinion of artists is generally fickle. Once your 15 minutes of fame are up you're back to where you started, albeit with more fans.

Dedicated fans are enough to sustain singers. And in interviews with many singers they always mention the love and support of their fans, not the general public or anything. Plus, it's harder and sometimes pointless to appeal to the general public since you never know what they will like.

 

 

Agree.

 

 

 

Yes. TWICE was on in an effort to attract the youth market, something NHK has been trying to do for years. I wouldn't be surprised if BTS was on this year in the same capacity.

That's great for Twice!! Queens!

 

And if they have the time in their schedule, BTS getting the opportunity too would be nice!

[DocumentaLy]

tvxq was known to have the biggest fandom ever, so their long sustaining career in japan very much depends on their fandom, i mean i don't even see their recent japanese songs doing great on digital charts, even bts's one is doing better.

 

boA has been flopping for years in Japan, she is not bringing in those album and concert sales, she had a great peak, but i don't think she even performed a solo concert in tokyo dome before despite her million sales so what's the point.

 

 

if having fandom only, allows you to hold dome tour and sell albums, i don't see anything wrong with it. 

 

The reason TVXQ got the fandom was due to them actually getting hits though. Once they broke through to the mainstream, the fandom grew. BTS has yet to have a actual hit in Japan.

 

Having a dome concert last decade was a very different thing than having it today. BoA was going more by the Japanese standard than the ones today's KPop acts use.

 

 

Not right away.

Like you said idol fandom in Japan are niche market, but most Kpop groups don't even have 1% fans of this niche fandom, so instead of chasing to reach even 1 % of this niche fandom you want them to go to Japanese public straight away? That is not how it work, you should build foundation first, which is fandom, after you build strong foundation then you can start to branching out, public is fickle but fandom stay with you for a long time.

This is what exactly what Loona's company did in South Korea, they don't care about public, they build fandom 2 years before Loona officially debut by releasing solo and sub unit of every members and hundreds of youtube contents about Loona's member activity, they slowly build Loona's fandom, after Loona have fandom then they will go releasing public friendly song. After you born you don't go running around, you creeping and crawling to walking and you start running.

There is a group who has public approval but lack of fandom since debut, but this is rare, and guess what, they didn't last long, when public didn't like their song they have no fandom to back up their sales.

 

 

If you go for the niche from jump, it's highly unlikely you'll leave the niche, because you'll have the niche stigma attached to you.

[MJBeatle]

tvxq was known to have the biggest fandom ever, so their long sustaining career in japan very much depends on their fandom, i mean i don't even see their recent japanese songs doing great on digital charts, even bts's one is doing better.

 

boA has been flopping for years in Japan, she is not bringing in those album and concert sales, she had a great peak, but i don't think she even performed a solo concert in tokyo dome before despite her million sales so what's the point.

 

 

if having fandom only, allows you to hold dome tour and sell albums, i don't see anything wrong with it. 

 

TVXQ had the biggest fandom, because they appealed highly to the public back in the day (2008-2010). Their long sustaining career has more to do with their hit songs (Stand By U, Doushite, Share The World, etc) than just having a temporary fan base. Their recent songs aren't doing well on digital charts, but they have strong fundamentals to continue working in Japan.

 

BoA is a more different case. Although she was very successful, she failed to form her own identity when the trend went from female soloist to idol groups at the time. And in terms of longevity, male idol groups have more edge over female idols in Japan.

 

Having fandom does help you make sales, but without hits (past or present), you can't sustain that fandom. I also think the public leans onto their acts based on certain narratives (hardship that their acts faced). 

[silicon soul]

Hasn't it been like this since the hallyu explosion with SNSD and Kara? Apart from a short early stints where both tried to be on as many shows as possible for maximum exposure they mainly stuck to their fandoms (albums with tours, some of their biggest songs were remakes, still having commitments elsewhere rather than sticking to Japan for a long time etc)

 

It was really obvious with the test of the kpop groups going over seeing SNSD and Kara success, some groups didn't even have that big of a fan base in Korea yet were heading straight for Japan for quick bucks

[Namie-Knowles]

Stan TWICE.

Stan NAMIE.

Stan UTADA

[DocumentaLy]

 

Stan TWICE.

Stan NAMIE.

Stan UTADA

 

 

No 

Retired

Should Retire