[Discussion] What Girl Groups Fans SHOULD Be Concerned About

[Aquamaraqua]

I feel like there's so much always talked about girl groups on forums and social media for a few years now in terms of support and concepts, and a lot of it comes down to the shift of girl groups that happened from the 2nd gen girl group era to the 3rd gen era.

 

Personally I don't find girl groups of the 3rd gen very appealing, and the whole "meninist" term being thrown around for anyone that doesn't stan a girl group that isn't Blackpink or Mamamoo gets tiring--let people like who they like without labeling them.

 

A huge misconception is that girl groups are hated on by boy group fans, and that boy group fans only care about "girl crush" concepts (which is partly true).

 

While yes, I'm sure there are some bg fans that hate on girl groups, it's definitely not the major demographic that cares about girl groups enough to hate on them... because that has proven to be time and time again to be fans of girl groups themselves. Or at least the male demographic (who tend not to be boy group fans). Case 1. Case 2. And there's more where that came from. It's always about pitting women against women... tell me how many "whose the best visual" threads you get comparing male idols vs. female idols. I've seen way more for women across various forums...

 

Onto the point of boy group fans (who tend to be girls) only liking "girl crush" concepts. While that may be true because of the prevalence of the diametric innocent or girl crush concepts in the 3rd gen, it's a lot more than what is just observed. People have a tendency to want something they can relate to and feel empowered by. While many innocent concepts may be received well by a younger female audience, generally speaking as you get older you tend to like more mature concepts that you may subconsciously want to emulate an essence from. I'll also use this opportunity to bring up the "cute concept" hate. It's not /cute/ things people necessarily hate, it's the fetishizing of youth and infantilizing women that many people don't find as attractive. Take a group of high school girls like Busters dancing in high school appropriate clothing vs. obviously older women dressed to seem "innocent" and pure to basically sell sex (see Korean army performances). And as for cute concepts, if it's quirky or cute like Orange Caramel/Momoland, it doesn't matter your gender or age, anyone can enjoy that, especially since OC aren't trying to give off the impression of being pure, they're just being cute while having fun and owning their own personas.

 

I digress though. Back to only liking girl crush concepts... it doesn't have to be badass, it could be sexy, it could be chic, it could be wearing a potato sack, whatever. It's evident when you look at the fanbases of 2nd gen girl groups like KARA, 2NE1, f(x) , After School etc. that badass isn't all "boy group stans" (code word for fangirls) want... all very different from one another, but all representing their own style of womenhood and all pulling off different concepts.

 

In the 3rd gen, save a few groups, I feel like there's a huge identity issue with girl groups (and boy groups, but moreso girl groups due to the way the industry is structured). They just don't know who they are, and companies don't know what to do with them either. I'm hoping girl groups will be able to find who they are and what they do best, like Momoland, but it gets difficult especially with groups that are large and have varying opinions.

 

It's the idol world and isn't really all that deep, I get that, but there's a lot of negativity within the fandom which wouldn't exist I feel if companies took a more organic approach with their idols.

 

The biggest thing for me is the lack of female idols producing music. While producing your own music doesn't necessarily mean you will always form your own identity, it is a push in the right direction to distinguish yourself. I know not all male idol groups produce their own music, but the producer ratio is terribly biased toward male idols. You've got Jinyoung, GD, Zico, Jooheon, heck even rookie boy groups are allowed to produce their own work these days. And then on the female side... LE and BEG. Seriously... where is everybody else? It's no secret female idols have been denied from producing music they wanted to in the past (see Hyorin, 2NE1 as a whole), and the treatment of female idols is really poor, even compared to their male counterparts. These are the sort of sexist attitudes girl group stans should be talking about instead of dragging boy groups stans every chance they get on Twitter...

 

I just want to see more women doing whatever the hell they want to in the K-Pop sphere. Even soloists in K-Pop are lacking divas. The last real diva we had was Lee Hyori and she's a generation old. I guess Chungha comes the closest for this generation? Regardless, we need more women to hone their skills.

 

TL;DR Let the women produce, K-Pop companies...

[Seunghee's eyebrows]

Reading this thread reminded me of this 

 

 

[Aquamaraqua]

Reading this thread reminded me of this 

 

 

 

When are we gonna get an MV as good as Damaged Lady ever again tbh? 

[Seunghee's eyebrows]

When are we gonna get an MV as good as Damaged Lady ever again tbh? 

I dunno. But boy Seungyeon's vocals especially in the beginning will forever be ringing in my ears. 

[Aquamaraqua]

I dunno. But boy Seungyeon's vocals especially in the beginning will forever be ringing in my ears. 

 

Indeed... her high note resonated all across the world when DL was released.

 

It's really a shame though the input by women for their art is so lacking and the appearance aspect, even moreso than male idols, is put as the only spotlight. It's companies that dig a hole for themselves when they take too much liberty and end up creating nothingness.

[searchme]

They should be worried that every new girl group is some aegyo, moderately talented gaggle of girls that look 15.

LOONA would be the top group had they debuted in 11-13.

[Aquamaraqua]

The constant downvoting and upvoting is interesting lol. Mind saying something people of OH instead of just a neg. It's a discussion and rebuttals are totally okay.

[M0VH]

I mean but it's a business though. What we are seeing from these groups are nothing but what companies had planned and set as what is profitable. I don't think Momoland has really found themselves in my opinion. These new groups hasn't found themselves as of yet, I mean they're all still so young with 7+ members. What really matters the most for these companies is trying to make a  solid market for their groups to which some have already found such as TWICE, Red Velvet, Mamamoo etc. 

 

I don't think it's as deep as you say tbh. 

[Aquamaraqua]

I mean but it's a business though. What we are seeing from these groups are nothing but what companies had planned and set as what is profitable. I don't think Momoland has really found themselves in my opinion. These new groups hasn't found themselves as of yet, I mean they're all still so young with 7+ members. What really matters the most for these companies is trying to make a  solid market for their groups to which some have already found such as TWICE, Red Velvet, Mamamoo etc. 

 

I don't think it's as deep as you say tbh. 

 

Momoland's latest concept was literally a derivative of JooE's quirky personality that got her noticed on variety last year, and the girls themselves looked much more comfortable in Bboom Bboom than anything released before. Watch their ASC and you can tell.

 

If it's a business and they want to make money, they need to have a slight bit of innovation, otherwise their product won't sell. The most basic notion of economics is supply and demand, when a market is oversaturated with supply (of the same concept in this case), then people will stop buying it--which they have. Distinguishing yourself from your peers is what gets you noticed, it's a handful of 3rd gen groups that have been able to do that. If you aren't from the B3, you need to be innovative, that's just how business works.

 

And if you read OP, I already addressed the issue of "deep". Nobody should have an issue with women doing what they want to and expressing themselves anyway.

[M0VH]

Momoland's latest concept was literally a derivative of JooE's quirky personality, and the girls themselves looked much more comfortable in Bboom Bboom than anything released before. Watch their ASC and you can tell.

 

If it's a business and they want to make money, they need to have a slight bit of innovation, otherwise their product won't sell. The most basic notion of economics is supply and demand, when a market is oversaturated with supply (of the same concept in this case), then people will stop buying it--which they have. Distinguishing yourself from your peers is what gets you noticed, it's a handful of 3rd gen groups that have been able to do that. If you aren't from the B3, you need to be innovative, that's just how business works.

 

And if you read OP, I already addressed the issue of "deep".

 

Although you're OP is a bit confusing, I did read the OP, and I think it's even less deep than what you think. And yes their latest song is taken from JooE. It's a young & fun concept to which I'm sure the members wouldn't mind doing because they are also young. But how will we know that it's what all the members want to do too? We don't. Of course if you're not from the B3, it requires some "innovation," and the company took JooE's image as part of their plan. Smart move tbh, since she has the most interest and exposure in her group. And tbh she is certainly a standout and memorable because of certain features. For me, I think Gfriend and Oh My Girl has found themselves more than the group you stated. 

 

gosh, i just know this is going to go nowhere.

[Aquamaraqua]

Although you're OP is a bit confusing, I did read the OP, and I think it's even less deep than what you think. And yes their latest song is taken from JooE. It's a young & fun concept to which I'm sure the members wouldn't mind doing because they are also young. But how will we know that it's what all the members want to do too? We don't. Of course if you're not from the B3, it requires some "innovation," and the company took JooE's image as part of their plan. Smart move tbh, since she has the most interest and exposure in her group. And tbh she is certainly a standout and memorable because of certain features. For me, I think Gfriend and Oh My Girl has found themselves more than the group you stated. 

 

gosh, i just know this is going to go nowhere.

 

I mean, it's fine if you think other groups have found themselves more than Momoland have. But that doesn't really address the general concern of women not producing music in K-Pop. 

[M0VH]

I mean, it's fine if you think other groups have found themselves more than Momoland have. But that doesn't really address the general concern of women not producing music in K-Pop. 

 

I'm guessing it's because gg are more in "danger" of flopping so companies are more in control.  I'm thinking it's more often that you find BG producing their own music because they are more profitable since their fans are usually crazier and will buy albums & etc... even if it sucks. 

[Aquamaraqua]

I'm guessing it's because gg are more in "danger" of flopping so companies are more in control.  I'm thinking it's more often that you find BG producing their own music because they are more profitable since their fans are usually crazier and will buy albums & etc... even if it sucks. 

 

Girl groups aren't in any more danger of flopping than boy groups are, and producing basic music to follow trends isn't actually doing girl groups any favors--like I said before. The reason girl groups don't have high physical sales is because fangirls actually support groups they like physically, while male fans tend not to buy albums (there are of course exceptions in fanbases). It's why groups like f(x), SNSD and Red Velvet tend to have better physical sales compared to their girl group counterparts, they've got huge female fanbases. Girl groups are also much easier to market to the general public than boy groups are because liking girl groups is much more acceptable in society than liking boy groups. And boy group fans being crazier is an insult to women simply put. Fangirls and fanboys both have equally crazy tendencies if put to the extremes, it's why Sunny was literally pulled off stage while she was performing and an idol was stabbed. ._.

 

I can understand idols not being able to produce their own music because it's risky, but the gender disparity is way too biased for it to be a coincidence. 

 

It's not that girl groups are in more danger of flopping (because they're not), these companies just aren't comfortable with female idols taking control. And that's the issue here.

 

It's counter-intuitive for companies to dose girl groups in the same formula that's trending and also worry about them flopping by being distinguishable and producing their own work... again that's not how economics works.

 

In the end if fans aren't receptive and demanding of these companies, nothing will change. It has to start from fans before something big happens in the industry for people to finally start talking.

[Love Bunny]

Twice produces their own music. Not all, but a bit of it. If that doesn't highlight their power and confidence than I don't know what does. 

[M0VH]

Girl groups aren't in any more danger of flopping than boy groups are, and producing basic music to follow trends isn't actually doing girl groups any favors--like I said before. The reason girl groups don't have high physical sales is because fangirls actually support groups they like physically, while male fans tend not to buy albums (there are of course exceptions in fanbases). It's why groups like f(x), SNSD and Red Velvet tend to have better physical sales compared to their girl group counterparts, they've got huge female fanbases. Girl groups are also much easier to market to the general public than boy groups are because liking girl groups is much more acceptable in society than liking boy groups. And boy group fans being crazier is an insult to women simply put. Fangirls and fanboys both have equally crazy tendencies if put to the extremes, it's why Sunny was literally pulled off stage while she was performing and an idol was stabbed. ._.

 

I can understand idols not being able to produce their own music because it's risky, but the gender disparity is way too biased for it to be a coincidence. 

 

It's not that girl groups are in more danger of flopping (because they're not), these companies just aren't comfortable with female idols taking control. And that's the issue here.

 

It's counter-intuitive for companies to dose girl groups in the same formula that's trending and also worry about them flopping by being distinguishable and producing their own work... again that's not how economics works.

 

In the end if fans aren't receptive and demanding of these companies, nothing will change. It has to start from fans before something big happens in the industry for people to finally start talking.

 

I can't...this is too much quoting each other, I really don't like quoting and going back to the same thread~ lol. I appreciate your passion for this though.   

[Kyrie]

 

 

And then on the female side... LE and BEG.

 

Y'ALL NEED TO STOP FORGETTING MS. SUBIN.

 

Rest of my thoughts later when I'm not busy.

[Aquamaraqua]

Y'ALL NEED TO STOP FORGETTING MS. SUBIN.

 

Rest of my thoughts later when I'm not busy.

 

I was aware of Subin, but I'm using influential examples here. The disparity is still very painfully evident unfortunately even with her and E-Young added in the mix. /:

 

 

I can't...this is too much quoting each other, I really don't like quoting and going back to the same thread~ lol. I appreciate your passion for this though.   

 

Well this is a thread meant for discussion, but that's cool.

[Love Bunny]

The reason girl groups don't have high physical sales is because fangirls actually support groups they like physically, while male fans tend not to buy albums (there are of course exceptions in fanbases).

 

You're right, male fans switch from group to group. But that means they end up supporting more groups than a female stan, and that is better for the industry as a whole. 

[Aquamaraqua]

You're right, male fans switch from group to group. But that means they end up supporting more groups than a female stan, and that is better for the industry as a whole.

Highly doubtful, as digital sales in Korea are a fraction of what they are here in the US. MelOn pays artists very poorly, Spotify is much better in that regard. That would make physical albums nearly 1000x the worth of a download in South Korea.

[Love Bunny]

Highly doubtful, as digital sales in Korea are a fraction of what they are here in the US. MelOn pays artists very poorly, Spotify is a much better in that regard. That would make physical albums nearly 1000x the worth of a download in South Korea.

 

Whoever told you that male fans don't buy physical albums is wrong. They definitely do, even in not well established fan bases. 

[Glissando]

I feel like you have a lot of different points that I agree with though though I'm not totally agreeing how you've related them to each other. 

 

 

 

• BG stans hate girl groups

Totally agree with what you said here. Maybe I just don't spend enough time on Twitter or whatever but I never got this generalization in the first place. BG stans are all way too busy trying to kill each other *cough* Army vs. Exo-L *cough* to waste energy dragging GGs. I still feel like most active GG stans are girls too though. But I almost never see the "all BG stans hate GGs" thing except for when people are complaining about it happening, and I hope it stays that way :X

• Girls like girl-crush concepts more because they relate to girl-crush better

I'm like half-and-half here because I think I get what you mean--girls like idols that express themselves authentically--but going along that logic, I don't feel like that excludes the current "cute" concepts from being "girl crush." That sounds weird but if we're going with the idea that "having fun and owning their own personas" than I don't think there are many GGs right now that don't fit in that category? We still have a little bit of the "innocence/purity" remnants on Lovelyz and Gfriend, but Twice+Pristin have very teen pop and friendship concepts while Oh My Girl and Loona are going down a more artist/aesthetic route even though some of their imagery pull from the "purity" looks. Now this brings me to your next point: 

• 3rd gen GGs are having an identity crisis

I'd hardly call this a concern right now because I contend the 3rd gen GG didn't really get its start until end of 2016 and it only officialized itself in 2017. Not to totally show my bias here, but the rise of Twice as top dog in the GG race kind of allowed the 3rd gen to finally have something to define itself by and now everything else is starting to fall into place around this status quo. Before it was more of a "throw whatever at the wall and hope it sticks," but now that companies exactly know where the industry stands (what's mainstream and what's not), they can re-identify their groups to fit the niche that sells for them. Momoland and RV are quality examples of this. And honestly, I think they're doing it really well; the rising groups are well on their way to carving out their own unique brands.

• Girls should be allowed to produce more

YES. While I don't think idol groups self-producing and the group having a solid identity are as dependent on each other as you make them out to be (in fact, with the way the industry is structured, I think they're almost directly contradictory), I do agree the bias against females creating content is super real and extremely unfair. Seventeen is producing half their own stuff but it's a victory even for Jeongyeon to have written lyrics for Love Line. Even Seohyun was fighting 'til the end to get her stuff onto official SNSD releases. I mean, GGs are so restricted compared to BGs and that's undeniably a product of the industry's sexism. 

 

We should totally be fighting for girls to be creators of their own performances. But I'm not sure the business perspective provides the best motivation to do so. GGs probably would sell fine even if their companies denied them any autonomy because a (smart) company would give them the strong identities; the members don't have to make one for themselves. We should advocate for GG autonomy because we want the women themselves to be able to explore and share their artistic merits.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR - I agree that girls should have more control over their content but I don't think them not having control will hinder their abilities to distinguish themselves as a group

[Kyrie]

I agree we need more female producers, but that's about it.

[Aquamaraqua]

Whoever told you that male fans don't buy physical albums is wrong. They definitely do, even in not well established fan bases. 

 

That's a general statement, and it shows in girl group v boy group album sales.

[Aquamaraqua]

I feel like you have a lot of different points that I agree with though though I'm not totally agreeing how you've related them to each other. 

 

 

 

• BG stans hate girl groups

Totally agree with what you said here. Maybe I just don't spend enough time on Twitter or whatever but I never got this generalization in the first place. BG stans are all way too busy trying to kill each other *cough* Army vs. Exo-L *cough* to waste energy dragging GGs. I still feel like most active GG stans are girls too though. But I almost never see the "all BG stans hate GGs" thing except for when people are complaining about it happening, and I hope it stays that way :X

• Girls like girl-crush concepts more because they relate to girl-crush better

I'm like half-and-half here because I think I get what you mean--girls like idols that express themselves authentically--but going along that logic, I don't feel like that excludes the current "cute" concepts from being "girl crush." That sounds weird but if we're going with the idea that "having fun and owning their own personas" than I don't think there are many GGs right now that don't fit in that category? We still have a little bit of the "innocence/purity" remnants on Lovelyz and Gfriend, but Twice+Pristin have very teen pop and friendship concepts while Oh My Girl and Loona are going down a more artist/aesthetic route even though some of their imagery pull from the "purity" looks. Now this brings me to your next point: 

• 3rd gen GGs are having an identity crisis

I'd hardly call this a concern right now because I contend the 3rd gen GG didn't really get its start until end of 2016 and it only officialized itself in 2017. Not to totally show my bias here, but the rise of Twice as top dog in the GG race kind of allowed the 3rd gen to finally have something to define itself by and now everything else is starting to fall into place around this status quo. Before it was more of a "throw whatever at the wall and hope it sticks," but now that companies exactly know where the industry stands (what's mainstream and what's not), they can re-identify their groups to fit the niche that sells for them. Momoland and RV are quality examples of this. And honestly, I think they're doing it really well; the rising groups are well on their way to carving out their own unique brands.

• Girls should be allowed to produce more

YES. While I don't think idol groups self-producing and the group having a solid identity are as dependent on each other as you make them out to be (in fact, with the way the industry is structured, I think they're almost directly contradictory), I do agree the bias against females creating content is super real and extremely unfair. Seventeen is producing half their own stuff but it's a victory even for Jeongyeon to have written lyrics for Love Line. Even Seohyun was fighting 'til the end to get her stuff onto official SNSD releases. I mean, GGs are so restricted compared to BGs and that's undeniably a product of the industry's sexism. 

 

We should totally be fighting for girls to be creators of their own performances. But I'm not sure the business perspective provides the best motivation to do so. GGs probably would sell fine even if their companies denied them any autonomy because a (smart) company would give them the strong identities; the members don't have to make one for themselves. We should advocate for GG autonomy because we want the women themselves to be able to explore and share their artistic merits.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR - I agree that girls should have more control over their content but I don't think them not having control will hinder their abilities to distinguish themselves as a group

 

I feel like I may have come across as too bent on production being the way to success and distinguishability, when that isn't the intended message, especially if you take a quick look at my badges. After School haven't been able to put out a single track on any of their albums that they have 100% produced themselves. E-Young has done an instrumental but that's about it. The girls have however been able to choose their concepts, make their outfits and choreograph their dances to some extent, and I find that quite awesome considering they debuted way back in 2009.

 

Any sort of artistic freedom is welcome, I feel like production was the biggest disparity present though, and that's what I think does help push groups to have stronger identities. Look at Big Bang or BTS for example and their growth and stability over the years. If there was any girl group that could have pulled off something similar it would have been 2NE1 had they been given more freedom in my opinion. I feel like aside from an artistic level, there's also a psychological level that helps artists bond with their work and each other more, and to continue to persevere together to be an unstoppable force. Some girl groups are undeniably huge, but imagine them being able to morph into a creation very much tailored by them, in whichever aspect it may be music, dance etc. That imo is the biggest recipe to success, because a premade formula can only keep the gas churning for so long before management decides to pull the plug for newer groups. But if you're the creator of your own formula, you're not dependent on anyone else to keep going, only you and your team (see Highlight).

[Hazard125]

I agree. Being heavily involved in the writing and producing aspect is pretty crucial to not only developing a unique artistic identity, but to establishing a real connection that can last with fans. IU is an example of that.

 

It takes time for artists to grow into writing and producing and early efforts will always be less successful in terms of the impact and sophistication of a song. Korean record companies need to start giving that time to develop like they are with male groups.

 

And you are spot on with the issue many women have with “cuteâ€. Cute and quirky are fine. Dressing adult women as young girls and having them act like kids is not.