Which male idols do you think are gay?

[Leland22]

My response to Vernon/Seungkwan discussion. Put it in a spoiler because it's super long, sorry lol

 

 

 

Personally I don't agree that Vernon is "humouring" Seungkwan like one user said, I just don't see him as being gay. Just because someone doesn't happen to agree that he's gay doesn't mean they are being willfully ignorant, as some here are suggesting. It just means there are other factors which I have taken into account that I find more convincing than his touchy-feeliness when he was 14/15. 

 

I mean, you could probably point to any of the SVT members pre-debut and make a case that they are all gay, including the ones that people tend to think are straight now. They all used to kiss each other, hug each other, touch each other in weird ways predebut. I'm not saying those videos can't be used as proof/evidence, but I just think it's less convincing evidence than how they tend to act now as adults. 

 

I know this has already been said before, and you're probably sick of hearing it, but there are tons of accounts of foreigners talking about their experiences in Korea and how they were shocked at how (young) Korean males have a tendency to touch each other's genitalia, hug each other, hold hands, etc. and how that is just a normal part of social interaction. I know a lot of you are already aware of this aspect of their culture, but I think maybe some of you also downplay (or aren't aware of) just how common this type of behaviour is in S.Korea among young men. It's because of this that those predebut videos aren't enough to convince me, especially considering all the other evidence that points to Vernon not being gay, imo. 

 

To me, the fact that Vernon seems to be interested in girls now (according to the other members and the way he acts around girls), and not especially interested in male affection now (at least not anymore than the other members), is pretty telling to me. I could maybe see him being bisexual, or even bicurious at one point or another, but I don't see him being gay. Also, as someone else pointed out, he seems to be more affectionate/close with The8 now than he is with Seungkwan, so that's also an interesting fact to consider. If VerKwan were "real", I kind of doubt Seungkwan would be okay with those two being so affectionate and close all the time, even sharing hotel rooms and 'cuddling' during the Idol Championships. 

 

I'm pretty sure Seungkwan is gay though, and probably likes (or liked) Vernon. I don't think either of them take it very seriously though, it seems like a harmless crush if anything, and that's why they aren't awkward about it. 

 

sorry for the long post! Also as a side note, can we avoid downvoting people who we simply disagree with? I find these discussions very interesting, even if we don't end up agreeing on who is gay or not, and I am interested to hear opposing thoughts that are articulated in a respectful manner. 

 

 

 

Just a couple side notes.

1. He can like boys AND girls lol. He can literally like one a LOT more than he likes the other and still like both. This shouldn't be shocking when some science suggests that that is the norm and we're all on a scale.

2. I've never seen two straight Korean males grab each other's genitalia the way Vernon did in that clip. Not like that. But that's just me.

3. 14/15 is not very young to act on attraction at all. I think we already discussed this.

4. I personally am not trying to establish that Vernon is gay, straight, bi, orange, alien, whatever. I just find it comical that people can't acknowledge that his ACTIONS are suspicious. I'm not worried about whether he "vibes" or "pings" because on some level that could easily lead to simple stereotyping and how could that not be the case when literally grabbing dick in a suggestive way is not suspicious but acting "girly" is? And the funny thing is that even going by that metric (which I generally don't), he "pings"; if I recall correctly he was on a variety show and they literally asked him "are you a boy or a girl?"

5. I'm legitimately trying to figure out, hypothetically what more could people possibly need to find his actions suspicious short of him performing a sex act with a guy?

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

 Just out of curiosity, do you remember why they asked him that? I do agree with you by the way. 

I think they seriously weren't sure. So within the context of their society I'd guess he's not considered the paragon of masculinity that some here might see him as? I'm not sure. I'm trying to remember the show but if I recall correctly (just want to emphasize that this is all from memory and may not be correct), he went to a village to help out with some other celebs and when they're being introduced to the people who live there, the people ask that question. Again from what I recall, these people weren't part of the cast but simply "normal" Koreans.

 

But that's not even a metric I'd suggest using. I just want to keep things in perspective. Vernon grabbed Seungkwan's D in a sneaky, seductive way and yet people are sure that Seungkwan is gay and Vernon is straight. I don't really get it.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

Got it. Thanks!

 

I think it all comes down to masculinity though, and people's expectations of what gay/bi guys are like. I mean, Jackson has shown more blatant interest in guys than almost anyone in kpop, and yet there are always people in this thread saying they can't see him as anything but 100% straight. 

Yep. In this instance I'd say it's stereotyping at least to some degree.

 

i don't doubt that it happened, but i just searched the forum and i couldn't find the original post about vernon copping a feel of seungkwan and i was wondering where this is from? i've seen the video of him grabbing boo's butt but that's it

 #53344   the last video

[Leland22]

It's easy to see it happening, especially in kpop where idols avoid interacting too much with opposite sex idols to avoid scandal, so you get a lot of cool and deep friendships which can read as gay. (And may be gay, who knows.)

 

It goes hand in hand with wish fulfillment and shipping, and some of us just want to see ourselves represented in the media we consume.

 

It's a slippery slope. 

Honestly, maybe I'm weird but I find that whole thing a bit...odd. I don't need my faves to be real-world-level-possible for me to like them or even thirst, should I desire to do so. i just accept that I will never meet them or at least know them on any meaningful level and that's perfectly okay for me. It doesn't bother me in the least to think they're straight.

[Leland22]

Okay so I'm not trying to reinforce gay stereotypes or any of that shit but I just want to point out that sometimes, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason and we should pay attention to certain things 

 

I was doing stuff for my English class and I was writing an autobiography for Oscar Wilde 

In case you didn't know, Oscar Wilde wrote The Picture of Dorian Gray, which is one of the gayest books of the 19th century. The book was published in 1890 and got a lot of hate for being so heavily homoerotic. In fact, it was so gay it got censored. 

Oscar Wilde was later arrested for having an affair with another man, Lord Alfred Douglas.

 

Basically, Oscar Wilde was pretty fucking gay

And this is a photo of a sculpture of him.

 

Photos of him:

 

This was way back in the mid to late 1800s. I think it's a good reminder that while we should never stereotype, we also should keep in mind that body language, expression, and style really can be a good indicator for sexuality sometimes.

 

idk this is kind of a useless post but just a reminder i guess.

 

Btw, just a cute fact- Oscar Wilde wrote an autobiography meant mainly for his lover, Lord Alfred Douglas (Boise). Boise was the love of his life, which he made clear in the autobiography. 

To be fair, couldn't his body language and mannerisms be attributed to 1. His culture. 2. The times in which he lived? That is to say, do we really have reason to assume that other Europeans of his age with similar social status didn't have similar mannerisms? I'm not arguing, I'm merely trying to understand.

[Leland22]

I saw this discussion has gone further in other posts, but I just wanted to add my two cents. Actually, the way Wilde was so flamboyant gave him a bad name in his circles. It was definitely not something that was done in that time. The way he talked, his fashion, his manner was often mocked (there were caricatures of him). Even before Wilde was a playwriter/writer he was known because of his image. To give a specific example, when Wilde was tried he put his hand before his mouth as he laughed. This was because he took something, I believe ivory but might have been another substance, which in that time was used as a cure for syphilis. This made the teeth green, which Wilde was trying to hide. It was used against him in the case as it was seen as a sign of effeminacy. 

 

A similiar example is Proust. He did a 'double bluff' with his handshake, which was very limp and weak (as opposed to the STRONG AND FIRM handshakes manly men had back then), in order to show off that he wasn't insecure about his masculinity. He was, of course, because Proust was well gay, but it was a double bluff.

 

 

 

TL;DNR: Wilde's manner was a sign of his homosexuality back then. But it's worth mentioning that even now there are some very flamboyant straight men. Not many tbh and I don't think it's fair to read those ~signs unless you're gay yourself, but still.

 

 

No, not entirely, because based on other writers of the same time period, it was not a common mannerism and body language overall.

 

So he lived in the Victorian Era and specifically in London (he did grow up partially in Dublin but did most of his writing and such in England). 

 

Here are some photos of other male writers born the same time period as Oscar Wilde, who lived in the same places as him:

 

Charles Dickens was also of the same era (Victorian era, around early to late 1800s, English writer) and here are some of his portraits and posed photos:

 

Anthony Trollope, also a Victorian era English writer (1815-1882):

 

 

Tennyson, the leading poem of the Victorian Era, born much earlier than Wilde but died around the same time:

 

The common mannerisms that adult males in Oscar Wilde's era used: Hands on lap, hands together on lap, legs sat down normally and slightly open (the 'typical' male pose). 

 

I do see what you're referring to, because in Victorian times, young boys often posed for portraits and photographs like this:

 

 

 

However, that was only done during one's youth. When one became an adult, he no longer posed like that- it was a practice only for young boys, usually.

 

Oscar Wilde continued to use that sort of posing and those mannerisms and body language long after he grew into adulthood, and in fact, people back in his time did remark in his postures and mannerisms, so it's not just a cultural thing in this case. 

 

Young boys often posed every elegantly and in a feminine manner, so I can see where you're coming from.

In this case, Oscar Wilde had a reputation for his flamboyant mannerisms, so I don't think it was just cultural.

 

Exactly

I was about to add that Wilde's mannerisms were in fact, not just "cultural", because he did have a bad rep for his flamboyancy. 

 

However, that doesn't mean culture doesn't always play a role- it can. It just doesn't in this case. 

And yeah, not every flamboyant guy is gay- but we should keep in mind that mannerisms and body language can be hints too.

Thank you for answering my questions. I enjoy well-researched posts.

[Leland22]

i think there's a sort of line to be aware of when applying gay stereotypes as "proof" that someone is gay. like with sehun—pretty much all of us can agree he isn't straight, and a lot of that does have to do with his mannerisms. but that's used as a way to support other evidence of his sexuality, rather than being the sole reason why he's suspected. same can be said for key, jo kwon, or topp dogg's hansol. and i do agree that a lot of the time, these mannerisms can even be the basis of your suspicions: not related to male idols, but i find it impossible to see amber as anything other than a lesbian, even though she hasn't had as many explicit "moments" as others.

 

on the other hand, a lot of people still seem to have a bias—unintentional, but still there—to assume that if someone doesn't exhibit those characteristics, they must not be gay. this isn't said with anyone in particular in mind (i haven't been around for long enough to attach opinions with specific accounts, to be completely honest) but i think it's something to be aware of. i'm guilty of it too, like how i always seem to hesitate before saying jackson might not be straight, despite the fact that his actions say otherwise. if jackson behaved or looked more like jinyoung, for example, a lot more of us would feel comfortable calling him gay/bi. but we have this idea that someone must be flamboyant in order to be gay, because that's been ingrained in us, and while i do 100% agree that stereotype has its truth, it shouldn't be held to such a high standard in all situations—especially when someone doesn't fit the behaviour, which is used as a justification that he's just joking around when he fawns over boys (something people say about jackson and hani, for that matter, who has never met a girl she hasn't thirsted over but tends to face the "you're too beautiful to be a lesbian!" mindset)

This sermon saved my life. Yes.

[Leland22]

since we're on the topic of fetishization anyways.....

 

this complete refusal to talk about underage idols because "they're too young!! they can't possibly know at their age" is not only infantilizing and factually wrong, since most gay kids (myself included) starts feeling same-gender attraction in their early teens and often feel alienated from their peers even before that

 

but it's also one form of fetishization, because it assumes there's something inherently dirty and perverse about gayness. something that kids shouldn't even be aware of, much less involvevd in. it all just plays into the hypersexualization of gay boys imgo

I said something similar. I think it's a crock of shit that people think youngsters don't know what they like on some level when most people start dating their preferred group at around 12-14 at least in my experience. Granted there can be confusion and repression but that can happen at any age.

 

Unfortunately that doesn't negate the possibility of him being not straight though. Got to say the loud homophobic ones have a tendency to end up in the news caught in various gay activities

 

Exactly. I've known enough homophobic people who turned out to be gay to know that this in and of itself isn't really indicative. I literally have a friend whose asshole older brother convinced their parents (who were homophobic anyway) to kick him out of the house when he came out because the older brother "didn't feel comfortable around him". Well years later, that asshole older brother called to apologize and revealed that he himself had recently come out.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

 

 

 

 

 

 

When this popped in my recomentations I didn't think it would be this golden.  That's too much to be just out of this world acting, 

Unfortunately no one will now, at least by now, their actual relationship status, I just know that they live together.

 

Teardrop worthy. 

 

the stuff the Leo guy drops is hilarious though

 

 

 

More:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's several english subbed trip videos of them.

 

They're so adorable

[Leland22]

Not many people here seem to know much about Hyungsik, so I can share a few relevant points.

 

- He was a very close friend of Ryeowook, and when they first became friends in 2011, he used to sleep over at Super Junior's dorm. They were very close for a while, became distant, but then became good friends again. They wrote many sweet messages to each other on twitter eg. Ryeowook hyung who’s like sunshine keke I miss you hwaiting~!!â€

 

- In early 2013, he tweeted in response to Hong Seokchun's Healing camp episode (in which he talked about coming out). By any chance saw Mr. Hong Seok Cheon’s Healing Camp.. Between B and D is C. There’s Choice between Birth and Death. It’s something important to choose between happiness and unhappiness.. Sad thought, happy thought which one will I choose between those two? I’ll choose the happy thought ㅎㅎ [Edited for the date]

 

- In 2013, while appearing on Real Men, Hyungsik talked about his relationship with one of the hyungs he met through the show. He was asked if the hyung had given him any advice about girls, and Hyungsik replied that he had been advised to read the Kinsey Reports and that he found this helpful.

 

- He once retweeted a yaoi fanart of himself and Siwan:

https://twitter.com/ZEA_Hyungsik/status/245829647068176384

 

- There was some speculation last year about his relationship with Siwan since they were seen going on a private holiday to Thailand alone together. They are both very private, so who knows.

Honestly, it's been a long time but I remember during ZE:A's debut days many in the fandom thought there was something between Hyungsik and Kevin. I don't know how I would feel if I looked at the commonly used "evidence" from back then nowadays but at the time, it didn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

 

It's always a day when you login to see people arguing about Heechul. Kinda worse when you see they aren't even arguing about him being straight, just that he's attracted to women.

 

Like I haven't been as observant on the whole rumor thing about idols, because I mostly just skim the surface except for certain individuals, so I don't necessarily have a whole background/history to start reading out despite how long I've been a fan, but I honestly do not understand why Heechul is still a subject for discussion......

 

 

This may be surprising to any not gay ppl here, but we lie about our orientations. All the damn time. There are idols that lie, that say borderline or outright homophobic things to try to blend in, because they know that saying something in a society that expects straightness will automatically dismiss anything else given the opportunity. It's really as easy as going: 'kissing my members, since they're men, its gross.'

 

Unless the watcher themselves is gay, in which case that sort of thing just makes us squint suspiciously.

 

Heechul does this as well, in varying degrees, and I consider the instances of him verbally making a statement of 'i like women' or acted as if he is, far less legitimate than all of the constant actions he's done to say otherwise

 

I hope this isn't too blunt but when I see the name Heechul here, I make sure to skip the discussion. Not because I dislike him or have anything against him but just because we've been over this topic so many times and I think the majority have reached a general consensus.

 

did someone say monsta x

 

 

about ikon, i don't know them very well so i can't give you an opinion. 

 

for monsta x:

minhyuk: gaaaay. imo it's super obvious. he's the type who talks a lot without thinking and he isn't a very good actor, so i don't think he could change his behaviour even if he tried

 

shownu: i know this is a very unpopular opinion but i think he might be gay. a lot of people dismiss him because he's manly and quiet, but idk, i just feel like he isn't straight

 

i.m: ???? he could be everything, nothing would surprise me

 

jooheon: he's hard to read because he doesn't seem particularly interested in dating, and he has a very innocent mind for his age (i remember once someone made a very obvious innuendo and the boy just didn't get it AT ALL lmaooo). but what i found weird was his behaviour during the bromance thing with jackson, he was so stiff and self-conscious which is very uncharacteristic for him since he's usually very warm and friendly and loves doing skinship. if he isn't straight then i could imagine him feeling insecure because of the whole "bromance" concept, which is why he might have acted that way. but yeah, who knows with him. he's a cutie though, please stan

 

wonho: okay, please don't kill me everyone, but i feel like he's straight. the thing with wonho is that he's VERY aware of what fans like and want, and he doesn't hesitate to give it to them  monsta x is not a very fanservice-y group, they are pretty natural, but wonho is the only one who deliberately does fanservice and hints on "gay" stuff because he knows that the fans like it. he loves pushing the hyungwonho ship and amping up the touchiness BUT, and that's the thing that makes me think he's straight, he doesn't seem personally affected by any of that, it just seems like fun and games to him. he's never flustered or feels "caught" or anything like that. 

also iirc the thing about him not wanting to get married was a bit taken out of context, because he said that he wants to get married, just not now. and during another interview he said he wants to be a good husband or something?

i know i seem like i'm straight-splaining (lol), but i just wanted to explain my point of view without others coming at me. that said, i wouldn't be too surprised if he turned out to be bi. i don't think he's gay though

but what is true is that he is very open-minded and he doesn't have that fragile masculinity a lot of other boys have (i love that about him). he doesn't mind being seen as feminine or cute

 

slightly ot but what kind of annoys me is that people take very flimsy rumours about his past as a fact just to get notes on tumblr or whatever. like, there was only one comment that said that he might have bearded one of his friends, and people immediately take it as a fact because it makes him sound cool. also, about his friend, we don't know if they are really trans, someone commented asking about it on their personal instagram and their reaction didn't seem too pleased... so i wish people would stop throwing around those things as facts, especially since the person involved 1.isn't even famous and 2.doesn't seem too happy about people questioning their gender.

 

kihyun: straight, maybe a bit bicurious?

 

hyungwon: straight, the straightest in the group imo, never gave me any vibes

 

 

I agree on the Shownu bit. That happens with a few idols.

[Leland22]

First of all, hello everyone, I think this might just be my first post on this message board, though I might be wrong.

 

 

But even so, I am familiar enough with it to know the basics and most speculated about, and so on, however, one thing I did notice, that a lot of people here seem to confuse being horny with being attracted tot he same sex.

 

Generally speaking, men are more sexual creatures. Be it the hormones, that wire the brain in a different way, other chemics, bodyfluids, or the general build, whatever you like. Their build alone makes it so much easier (and more comfortable at that) to have, and enjoy sex, but I do find, that people on these boards generally ignore this alltogether, so when a guy gets horny he could pretty much engage with his pillow and get sattisafacton out of it.

Men are horny, much more so than most women could ever be or understand, so, I often find that posters here confuse that hornyness for attraction, when it truth it's nothing else but sexual desire in a more primal shape.

 

I don't want to

 

 

A lot of these groups, male and female, leave their friends and families behind at an alarmingly early age to pursue, what is, in many cases, a stressful career (if they manage it that far). Trainess practice, eat and sleep together, oftentimes on top of each other for lack of space and extra beds.

 

Does that sound normal to you?

 

 

Heck - you will even have a hard time finding blood related families who spend as much time together as most trainees do - at least I don't remember sharing my room with either, my brother or sister 24/7, not throughout the whole day and for years at an end - but maybe that's just me being overly sophisticated, who knows.

 

Most idol bands literally spend years and year sharing the same room, the same bathroom, day in, day out, in the closest quaters possible without being considered abusive, pretty much nonstop.

 

Again - that is not normal. I say this, because many people, including older ones, who should know better, seem to completely forget about this altogether.

 

SO of course, the bonds that idols form, can not be compared to "normal" people.

 

 

As a result, we often witness a level of closeness that seems to us, in many cases, off putting. These guys are literally over each other - they grab asses, rub each other in all the wrong places, kiss touch and cuddle (for fanservice and self enjoyment) to a degree one can't but consider gay.

 

One of the main reasons why there seem to be so many misnconcetpions about this topic, is because, you (we) as readers and observers, hardly have the same experiences, so in comparison, these displays of affection seem either overly played out for the sake of fans, excessive or fake.

 

I do believe that the life of an idol is a stressful one, and while it may not be on the same level of discomfort as, say, a construction worker or a MC Donalds employee, each will have their own specific downside. Mental exhaustion is just as much a thing as is physical one.

The industry is ruthless, but so is life in general for many people, and making a living is hard, no matter the occupation.

 

You simply can't compare their situation with yours, since they spend most of their young and adult life together. And remember, not all of what we see is a show idols put up for the sake of their fans. You often get the more private stories and anecdotes, either from the friends and families on TV and the radio, or the idols themselves.

 

 

YOu get a similiar vibe in sports, where teammates grab each others behinds, hug and even kiss, without a second thought as a form of support.(boxers kissing on the lips, soccerplayers humping each other, hugging and kissing cheeks like there is no tomorrow)

 

My point is, they get close, because, unlike your "us" they spend their whole day together, with little breaks, many stressful situations, and constant traveling from one place to another, so the need for human contact is even bigger with idols.

To be fair, siblings grow up being even closer than these idols and the vast majority don't do sexual or romantic things with each other.

[Leland22]

Jisoo needs to fight me for him

 

 

   

  I'll fight you for him. My goodness he's so beautiful.

 

Does Jisoo have a nice body as well?

[Leland22]

Well, that would be incest, and greatly disturbing on top of it.

 

Siblings are blood related, wheras idols are not. You will have a hard time finding anyone being sexually attracted to their own sibling. They are completely different to begin with.

I think you're missing my point. In conservative countries there may be a similar amount of social stigma against homosexual relations. My point is that we can't simply dismiss the possibility of homosexual attraction because people live together under stressful conditions (cont.)

 

People usually don't feel sexual attraction to people they consider 'family'. Simple as that. Be it their actual siblings or people they grew up with. It's just Westermarck effect in action, that gives it a disturbing feel, and not a fact whether they're actually sharing some genetic stuff or not.

Either way, idols become trainees in their early teens, which is too late for the Westermarck effect to work.

Yes and people can be adopted or placed into foster care. They can be adopted in their early teens which you have acknowledged is too late for the Westermarck effect to affect them. Do we think it's common for people who are adopted or are in foster care in their teens to have sexual or romantic interactions with their adopted/foster siblings? Of course not. The point is that living together under stressful conditions is being used as an "excuse" to avoid acknowledging that some will have more of an inclination to engage in homosexual acts/relationships and some will not and there's no need for such mental gymnastics. I also want to add that some of the people we've discussed actually had short training periods or were late additions to their groups.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

I am absolutely not missing any point - because I NEVER once said that close living quarters exclude attraction between idols.

My point was, that BECAUSE of their super close livingconditions idols are usually much more affectionate towards each other than most young adults (and even families) around us, which in turn a lot of people mistake for gay attraction (even when the PDA is strictly non sexual). This includes non-sexual as well as sexual displays of affection.

 

Of course they can be attracted to each other, but that wasn't my point.

 

But many people on here seem to take the NON-sexual affection between idols as a proof to their attraction to one another all too often. They say things like "Ohh, but the guys in my school never did that, so idol a and idol B must be gay!" or "Guys don't hold hands like that - they must be attracted to one another."

 

A simple hug must be a sign of some sort of sexual attraction, even if the guys hugging are 100 percent straight.

 

(sexual attraction between family members has absolutely nothing to do with any of my posts, so I won't even go there)

K. So we're doing sass, I guess? You absolutely missed MY point from my original comment to you as I've already explained but that's neither here nor there. I also never said you said that close living conditions exclude attraction between idols (what?) You've reworded your stance but the point is still the same: You're using the conditions of idol groups as an excuse to dismiss suspicions of homosexuality, homosexual attraction and/or homosexual activity. If you're implying that we are seeing homosexual attraction/acts/tendencies that aren't there or are overestimating the frequency of them but are instead seeing what you deem to be mere closeness that is the product of their conditions (which you are) then yes, you are doing precisely what I've said that you are doing.

 

Bluntly 1. The majority that I personally have seen here aren't basing their thoughts on simple hugs or whatever other BS.

2. Most of us are well aware that the South Korean culture and the idol culture are very different from others and as such we should have a different "threshold" when viewing interactions between people within those cultures. This was discussed -- in detail -- before you arrived. You are preaching to the choir and doing so in a condescending manner.

3. It is not illogical to make a reasonable guess at what might be the norm even in extreme conditions as some of us are or are close with athletes, members of the armed forces, people who have gone to military school or other boarding schools, etc. Yes, we can guess that straight individuals might not do certain things even if they were in idol groups. No, that would not be based on hugs or holding hands.

4. For many of us the physical aspect is merely a piece of the puzzle in our thoughts/suspicions.

 

I have more to say but this is already getting longer than I wanted.

 

tl;dr: We already know. Most here don't do what you've mentioned. The type of posters you mentioned don't post here in great enough numbers to justify the lecture.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

And what point would that be now?

 

I am not dismissing it, again, don't put words into my mouth I never said, because you won't find it anywhere in my original post. I have elaborated on this many times, so you obviously did not read my post carefuly enough. You say it yourself "I never said you said that close living conditions exclude attraction between idols"-----well, then what are you saying exactly, when your following sentence is AGAIN saying just that?

(if it wasn't clear enough, I mean the idols living together can of course have an attraction towards each other)

 

I am not preaching, if you get that impression, well, I can't really do anything to prevent people from reading the post the way they like to.

 

1. Here is where we differ, because that is exactly what I see a lot of people doing here. Many people on this thread do just that. The see a hug and = gay. They see hand holding =gay.

2. I am saying the same exact things so, again, what is your point here?

 

3. Again, I am saying the same thing, only that my english is not up on par with yours. The main point I am trying to make here is that A LOT of people do just that. They take these absolutely non- sexual displays of affection as a sure sign of attraction, or jump to conclusions that a sexually frustrated or turned on straight guy who choses to "grope" another member in order to release some of that tension must automatically be gay.

 

Most posters I mean who do just that post here so often that it cought my attention: To them, there are no straight members left anymore, because everyone must be gay.

You literally quoted the post to you and Livia where I explained the point. Asking what the point is will not change that there is a point and that it was explained to you. *shrug*

 

I understand that you can't see the difference between essentially saying that something is impossible and, in instances, using something as an excuse to dismiss it but I can't help that as I've already explained it to you. For instance, a government may not deny that smog is possible but they may decide to call it something else or use varying definitions dismiss it at times or even on average. There is a difference. Again, If you're implying that we are seeing homosexual attraction/acts/tendencies that aren't there or are overestimating the frequency of them but are instead seeing what you deem to be mere closeness that is the product of their conditions (which you are) then yes, you are doing precisely what I've said that you are doing.

 

"Preaching to the choir" is a figure of speech.

 

1. How much of the thread have you read? Legitimately asking.

2. Again, asking what the point is will not change that there is a point and that it was explained to you lol. It is obvious that the point is that we already know and are taking steps to avoid this pitfall. In other words, we don't need your help to address something that is already being addressed.

3. So what exactly do you mean by groping? That word often has a sexual connotation so I'm curious.

 

In closing, most of us ignore the posters who do this or admonish them directly. The issue I have with your comment is that it feels more like a blanket statement and it really did feel condescending.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

I mean that guys are usually much more upfront about their needs. For example, in ymy class we had many boys who would literally hump the desk, hump each other or grope each others front, sometimes for laughs, other times as a way of teasing, and most of them were straight guys.

Girls on the other hand never did any of that.

 

 Most of their interactions seem to get more "wild" in general - when they are teasing each other, there is often a violent aspect involved,verbal escalations often tend to get violent, they are simply more physical in most aspects.

 

(I will deffinitely read the article, but for now, I need to get some rest.)

 

No, of course not, a single touch doesn't make you gay, it's always the motivation behind it that has to be considered.(so of course a slap on the butt from Sehun will always be percieved in a much different way than say the same move from any straight male idol)

 

I get what you are saying 100 percent!

 

Heechul is absolutely wild and unpredictable, he enjoys being in front of the TV and entertaining others, but he values and shelters his private life like no other.

 

He is definitely comfortable in his own skin.

 

Basing your perceptions of someones sexuality on fanservice is not wrong in itself - I'm sure that most of us are old enough to be able to tell the difference between obviously fake bromance for the sake of fangirls and little details, that still betray a bit of truth.

 

As with all things, it's not always the things you say or do, but HOW you say or do them.

 

With Heechul ----- honestly, he truly NEVER pinged to me - not once.

 

(Ps: you would be surprised to know just how high the number of straight men watching gay porn truly is. Even more and more Hollywood actors bring this up, the reason so many men are turning to gay pron, even if they are straight, is that, for one, the sexual aact alone turns them on, and second, many comment how two men involved often seem to visibly enjoy IT more, wheras female porn stars don't. )

 

 Your first part has me confused.

 

You simply keep putting words into my mouth I never said. Honestly, I don't mean to sound rude, but I am honestly confused here.

 

Are idols more touchy feel with one another than the average Joe because of their living conditions? Yes. Does that mean they can't be gay? No.

End of story. I can't get any simpler than that.

 

1. I have read pretty much all of the thread throughout the years.

2. What?

3. I mean, that straight boys will often grope other straight boys bodyparts, either as a way of teasing or as sort of release for sexual tensions - and that it doesn't make them gay.

For example, there a lot of gifs of straight idols standing behind another on press conference and pressing their "junk" into the others behind.

A lot of boys in my class used to do that, or touch each others chest in fun, or out goof around in an overly sexy way, even humping each other for laughs.

 

But I really don't mean to come across as condestending; I have a matter of fact way of speaking, because I like to keep to the point. The other factor you have to consider is that I have to translate everything in my head first, which is somewhat stressful since I don't get the opportunity to use English much, which often causes me to lose track of the thought I just had.

I believe we'll have to agree to disagree. I will only address one part because of the factual nature of it.

 

"Your first part has me confused. You simply keep putting words into my mouth I never said. Honestly, I don't mean to sound rude, but I am honestly confused here. Are idols more touchy feel with one another than the average Joe because of their living conditions? Yes. Does that mean they can't be gay? No. End of story. I can't get any simpler than that."

-- For all intents and purposes you are putting words into your own mouth. Once again, I am not saying that you said anyone can't be gay. I am saying that you are attempting to use living conditions as an excuse to dismiss our theories on some people sometimes. The fact that you're doing that now does NOT mean that you think it's impossible for idols to be gay. I understand that there is a language barrier but I believe there has to be a degree of stubbornness for you to continue arguing this even after I clarified my statement.

[Leland22]

I am not using living condition as an excuse, but pointing out a valid point to all those who are quick to jump to conclusions at the mere sight of idols closeness. The majority of idols being comfortable with each other to a greater degree than most is a DIRECT result of said living conditions.

 

"I am saying that you are attempting to use living conditions as an excuse to dismiss our theories on some people sometimes."

 

You are saying it yourself here - on some people, sometimes - but not dismissing all of them as you kept saying.

 

I am telling you time and time again, how I don't think, and yet you keep putting those words into my mouth - that is not being stubborn, but correcting you.

 

 

Language barrier has nothing to do with it.

The language barrier has everything to do with it as I've bluntly told you that I never said you're dismissing "all of them all the time". You need to worry about correcting yourself. As you yourself admitted, English is not your strong suit. I tried to let you know that you misunderstood what I said. Now I'm telling you straightforwardly: You misunderstood. You are incorrect. Accept the correction and move on. If something is not your strong suit, accept the help of those who have a greater mastery of it rather than trying to figure it out on your own and getting it wrong time and time again.

 

Nah, it's not blunt. To be honest, i do know better but coming into this thread and seeing that for pages on end is beyond annoying.  

 

Could we all get back to our regular programming.

 

 

If you don't mind me casually commenting on this, while I honestly know very little about ZE:A I kinda... noticed? assumed? that Hyungsik seems to be on the further end of the not straight spectrum. I might check back into some of their earlier debut stuff myself if it's something people tend to believe that isn't just a ship trying to sail itself.

When I was more into ZE:A I was a lot less...perceptive. In retrospect, he probably would ping me if I looked back though. I'm trying to find time to look up videos of him with Kevin to see if there's anything there but yeah that was definitely the main Hyungsik ship.

[Leland22]

I may have more trouble writing it than you do, but rest assured, I understand every word of what you are saying .

Obviously not, otherwise you'd know that accusing you of doing something isn't the same as claiming that you "always" do it lol. You'd also know that I didn't claim you said it's impossible for idols to be gay. Save the BS. These are two examples of you failing to understand what was said to you. *shrug*

[Leland22]

It's a pretty long text, but to sum it up:

 

I mention noticing how many people seem to confuse horniness for sexual attraction.

Then I go on to make my point as to why I believe idols show such an unusually high amount of closeness and general display of affection - and nothing else.(page 2719)

 

The post below is your direct answer to my long one hidden behind the spoilers.

For no reason at all, you bring up siblings and their sexual attraction towards each other, or lack thereof, which is the beginning of your confusing posts.

 

To what does the, "To be fair..." part even refer to?(I think you are confused here yourself, your following posts definitely confirm this.)

 

As if siblings who grew up together could ever equal the situation of idols, who are practically strangers to each other. You can't compare those two.

Not to mention, the whole absurditiy of your sibling comment to begin with ---- I would say it's a given that you DON't feel sexual attraction towards your siblings, not matter how close you are!

 

I don't know why you felt the need to even go there to begin with....

The post above is my direct reply to your sibling comment.

 

And finally, below is your reply to it -

 

And we don't even need to go any further than this, because here is where you begin your mistake yet again, "I think you're missing my point...."

 

----- because you simply NEVER made a point to begin with.

 

This is the crux of it all.

There is your odd sibling comment. But there is absolutely no point at all - the whole comment didnt make sense to begin with.

 

Then you suddenly make the jump to yet another confusing and totally unrelated sentence about conservative countries, and social stigma - AGAIN, pulling things out of the blue.

You go on with ---"My point is that we can't simply dismiss...." which is where you begin to put words into my mouth I never said.

 

You drop yet another odd comment on adopted siblings, and THEIR sexual attraction towards one another- again, completely missing the mark.

And it comes to the part, I have pointed out to you time and time and time again --- right here- "...used as an excuse...." ----which I never mention aynwhere in my post.

From here on, you keep going in circles, ignoring your mistakes over and over again, and arguing in even more confusing sentences that make little to sense once again.

 

I mean, you couldn't have been more wrong if you tried.

You have proven that logic doesn't seem to work with you, so I'm not sure that this post will even get through to you to begin with, with the way you jump from one bizarre sentence to the next. But if you chose to being stubborn, please, by all means go ahead. If it makes your day.

 

*pats head*, you`re welcome either way.

 

(sorry folks for having disturbed the flow, you definitely won't see me continuing this on. My great Jeongcheol post will follow very soon though!)

You're going off the deep end asking questions I already answered. Bottom line: accusing you of doing something doesn't mean I'm saying you "always" do it and I did not say that you said idols can't be gay. The end. I'm not going on a long rant with with you. I know what I said. You obviously did not. End it there. Accept your loss.

 

Sent from my SM-G930T using OneHallyu mobile app

[Leland22]

Accept your loss? Jeez. No need to be immature.

Sure overlook every condescending thing they said and the fact that they're pretending I said something I did not say even after I clarified my statements more than once and just focus on one offhand remark from me. Very helpful.

[Leland22]

I am soo so sorry for resurrecting this post from march but I marathoned Addicted because of you LOL you got my interest piqued when I was backtracking the thread, please forgive me if I am beating a dead horse!!!

 

Honestly watching the series, I was kinda bored. Gu Hai as a character is like a psycho??? And Luoyin just tolerates it??? I was actually honestly really underwhelmed, and couldnt see the chemistry the actors had been praised for but the very first behind the scenes clip I saw they literally both pinged right away. But I thought maybe I was just reading into it, so I kept on watching more behind the scenes clips and observing their interactions and now I truly believe at least at the time they filmed Addicted together that their were some feelings??? If they didnt like each other then at the very least it was an incredibly close friendship. 

 

 

 

In this video, the first time they pinged me, is because Johnny (who plays Gu Hai) keeps teasing Weizhou about the scarf he's knitting, which is used in the series as a gift from Weizhou's character to Gu Hai's character. If One of them was female, without a doubt I would have said they were flirting in that scene of the bts clip. (also it takes weizhou a really long time to knit it, here is a gif of him still working on it days later)

 

 

And then here's another video of Johnny doing a self-cam with Weizhou; and the middle clip they're literally just staring into each other's eyes and Johnny tells him how long his eyelashes are.

 

 

 

Something else they do that I thought was very flirty was how they wrestled a lot behind the scenes! Play fighting;; in the unaired Happy Camp episode the fancam of Johnny pinning Weizhou down in a jiujitsu match was also was rather pingy compared to how he acted when he wrestled Haitao. With Haitao he kinda just like slammed him down? While with Weizhou he was markedly more gentle, and even pinned his wrists when Weizhou already gave up.

 

Anyway, sorry for long post! @Wombat, you said that you had lots of things you could bring up about them, and said C-fans pointed out things that could be possible proof. Would you mind sharing them? I'd love to hear! I feel a little bit like a crazy person lol

Don't apologize. I can't speak for anyone else but they're both pretty interesting to me. I can't wait to check out your links. I'd also like hearing what C-fans think.

 

EDIT: I also noticed the wrestling/pinning that Jingyu liked to do. It made me think but I wondered if it's because two ex's of mine were a LOT like that as well. (Though they could never beat me  )

 

 

I'm cool letting it die but y'all shouldn't be ok with that type of double standard and I had to get that off my chest. why are people so scared of internet disagreements anyways haha? its fine

 

I appreciate it but it's really okay  I believe it was a misunderstanding but I can't force that poster to see it that way. I can only change my own behavior and I'm not proud of allowing myself to get irritated over such a minuscule misunderstanding but the past is the past. But genuinely, thanks.

 

Ten has been predictably delivering, his "oppa" at Johnny Jaehyun is a nice surprise lol

 

 

I actually thought the prank was pretty tame compared to other groups lol, and the tension wasn't that thick. I like how we got to see Taeyong and Johnny becoming worried and trying to manage the situation.

If you don't mind my asking, would you mind explaining what the prank was or pointing me to a timestamp for it on the video?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

If you want to talk about idols who are potentially bisexual, how about we talk about Lee Minwoo from Shinhwa. I think he is bi, there is a lot that point to it. He pretty openly flirts with men and women. Y'all have probably seen this many times already but go watch it again, Minwoo is so wonderfully flirty

 

 

 

I don't know a whole lot about Minwoo but it seems like everyone loves Jungkook lol

 

[Leland22]

 

 

Woohootooyoo, on 03 Apr 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

Did you miss all this stuff? "I mean, you couldn't have been more wrong if you tried." "You have proven that logic doesn't seem to work with you" "*pats head*, you`re welcome either way." Why you playing favorites and not calling out this rude shit, though? haha

 

It's just the one I happened to see, and I had read that user saying similar inflammatory things in the pas (sorry, Leland22. . .). Why did you even bring this up? When I call one person out for being rude, do I automatically have to search for everyone else who has been rude and call them out too? Well, excuse me.

 

 

Before I respond, please put yourself in my shoes. You're making what I feel is a baseless accusation after it seemed that we all agreed to end this argument. I think many would be bothered at the idea of simply letting that stand without clarification. What exactly are you referring to? I'm a bit much at times but I can't recall ever saying anything "inflammatory" here that wasn't simply a "response in kind". And yes it does seem like you're being selective in your criticism (or perhaps viewing me through the lens of some other past interaction rather than this discussion) if you're able to miss multiple rude comments from blackberry yet focus in on that one comment from me. Afterall, blackberry's rudeness is in the very comment I was responding to when you criticized me (not something you'd need to "search" for) so it's a bit weird to me that you were able to miss it and still haven't criticized it after it was brought to your attention. Nonetheless if I have wronged you in the past, I'd rather discuss it openly and move forward rather than have it lead to something negative like this. I'm only being transparent and explaining my stance since this was revived with fresh accusations lol. Thanks for listening to my neurotic insomniac ramblings.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Leland22

[Leland22]

Yeah it was tame and there wasn't that much tension so it fell flat for me.

 

 

Basically Ten, Jaehyun, and Doyoung decided to prank Johnny in order to surprise him for his birthday and got the manager and production in on it. Doyoung suddenly "fell ill" and walked out of the segment so they "cut filming." Jaehyun acted annoyed and accused Doyoung of faking, then the manager came out like Doyoung was too ill to continue filming and Taeyong (who didn't know about the prank) and Johnny get all worried and try to diffuse the situation while reshooting the segment. Then Doyoung comes out with a birthday cake. It was very tame and not as tense as the onscreen text was trying to make it seem.

 

Thank you for explaining.

Sorry if this was already discussed. This is not in relation to the current series -- which I haven't been able to watch yet -- but do you all ever feel like Ten has a soft spot for Doyoung? I remember thinking that in some past behind the scenes videos where Ten was filming him.

[Leland22]

Do you know which videos? Their interactions at least on the show the last couple seasons don't seem to give off anything other than platonic vibes on both ends. But I haven't looked into their interactions that much outside of what happens in the show. Ten seems to be the closest with Johnny then lately Jaehyun. But from what I've seen, I don't think he's into any of the other members like that.

Thank you. The main video I'm referring to is the one where Ten filmed him eating and said he looked like a rabbit or something like that. I'm not speaking from a position of authority or anything like that though. I'm not as familiar with the members as I'd like to be.

 

 

JB continues to confuse me. Most of the time, he seems like your average str8 with some fragile masculinity problems, but he always has this soft spot for Youngjae that makes me just slightly side-eye him. *shrug*

I know it's a stereotype but sometimes it really is true that the ones who protest the most are actually some of the most questionable in the end. Overshare: I was a bit like that before I came to grips.

 

 For some reason, i really think something between them happened while they were sharing the same blanket.

LOL! Oh my...