Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[ZRH23]

Starting a betting pool on how long it will take for him to blow his voice if he keeps doing this.

 

 

I'm gonna guess three to five years.

If Sam Smith and Adele have already shown the heavy damage their technique could be causing to their voice (they needed surgery ffs. It may not be entirely technical fault but it had got to play some part) I'd bet a year to three. Maybe less. Depending on how frequently he performs and how healthy his overall lifestyle is. If he drinks booze and gets drunk every week and performs at the same rate, he could get the Guiness World Record to fastest vocal hemorrhage lol.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

 

 

So... this is a vocals thread, yeah? Did you know putting weights on your chest and singing won't help you improve? As if that weren't already obvious.

Um...did you mean that question literally? Because at first (mind you, I'm really young and dumb) I did try. But...meh.

Actually, putting some weight (books and that sort, not WEIGHTS lol) on your STOMACH and then breathing could be some sort of exercise. I mean, it ain't for me but it might appeal to some people. The point is to keep the stomach/diaphragm or whatever expanded so the goal is that when you breath, the books dont fall down. Or something like that.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

I'm curious about what do you think of Hyorin right now.

So what do you think of her right now? Lol

Well, you asked KoreaxxLove but I'd answer a bit since you replied to a post they did about how long it'll take for Dimash to regress so I'm assuming your talking about Hyorin's regression as well (correct me if I'm wrong lol).

 

Hyorin did not regress cuz of vocal abuse. That's what would be the cause if Dimash were to regress. No one really knows what caused her regression (I suspect some evil virus released by some evil companies to bring down the best vocalist but that's just my point of view) but she hasn't gotten up from it. But she's improved somewhat. From straining B4s, to supporting C#5s and now D5s. Her approach is getting better overall but she hasn't gotten Eb5 yet.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

I quoted that post of his BCS it was his last one lol

She regressed because she went through a mental breakdown.

Oh okay then 👌. Meh, I like my reason better. It's cooler XD

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

meh??

Yes, meh. You know like...meh. It's hard to explain XD

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

meh??

Yes, meh. You know like...meh. It's hard to explain XD

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

she went through an mental breakdown and you say "meh"? Wow

Oh. You're taking it in that context? Well, it's up to you if you wanna take it butthurt like that but I certainly didn't mean it like the way you implied. But if you want to think that I did so, okay.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

That's not going to help lol

The chest thing, no lol. The stomach with the books...maybe idk XD. It didn't for me, thats for sure.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

 

 

That won't help either. Actual breathing exercises will help. Pretty much everyone is physically capable of support, so doing that would be useless. Vocal training is about habitual changes. It's much more mental than it is physical.

Oh yeah, Ive heard of that. Well, i'm pretty stubborn so that explains why I haven't improved XD

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

Sure Jan.

Wow, a meme from 2015. Good for you.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

I don't really listen to her. Can you give me some recent examples of her singing? I went to her range video, but that might be dated now. She was better than I thought she'd be, that's for sure. But I guess that's before she regressed?

 

Her chest isn't the greatest, but her mix is pretty good. Really good before E5 and not quite as consistent beyond that. 

The video Park HyoLee sent was mostly comprised of her mix before the regression actually. So, almost everything in her mix there is supported/resonant though yeah, she ain't as good above E5. Her chest voice is probably one of the better ones in Kpop though, considering not many have decent chest voice lol. Her falsetto had never been really good so I don't think it's much of a stylistic choice.

 

 Her regression started in 2015 and I guess this is one of the examples:

 

 

But she has improved since then though she can't really handle anything above D5 without the tension overpowering the support.

 

 

Like here, listen to 3.00 and so on.

 

But she does have better moments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIWmgbBm1Rg&feature=player_embedded

 

2.44, the Eb5 isn't bad at all,

And all other recent examples show her mixing in a much nicer way than she's been doing in 2015/2016 so the regression isn't very obvious, Compare it to her vocals in 2015 though, that's sad.

 

 

 

Just dropping this here because he's really good and no one knows about him. Excellent mix and the fact that he's almost 60 makes it even better. 

 

 

Oh, that is nice. Has he ever made any sort of famous Korean ballad song? I don't think I've ever heard him mentioned.

[ZRH23]

oh yeah the baritone guy is pretty good in comparison to some of the other famous baritones today, he's a naturally bigger baritone and he has less tongue and laryngeal depression in comparison. That's really disappointing to hear about Dolora though, I guess she's way out of her prime at 65. Actually I had no idea what the state of her vocal health was in recent years, but 20 to 30 years ago she was one of the better mezzos, as far as the last generation goes I mean, though she was not in the league of the great mezzos that came before her so I shouldn't be too surprised that her technique hasn't lasted that long.

 

but YAY you enjoyed the baritone the most <3 LOL

 

 

the guy who writes the blog, who we all know here and used to be a regular member here, was taught to sing in a particular manner of pop singing which is why he would tell you everything is done in a neutral larynx. He himself does not sing with as much of a lengthened vocal tract which is why he would tell you that everyone sings in "neutral larynx". I myself do not sing in much of a lengthened vocal tract either in contemporary music, so it's not like I'm trying to sell you anything here LOL I'm simply informing you so you know what options are open to you. You can sing in a neutral way if you'd like. I wasn't telling you to sing it like Ailee, I was saying that she attempts to sing her low notes in a lower larynx position but doesn't do it that well. You can learn to do what Ailee is TRYING to do and better, that's what I meant. Or just don't lower it if that's what you want, it's up to you.

 

The fact is that not every contemporary singers uses this elusive "neutral larynx" throughout, many of the greatest contemporary singers lengthened their vocal tracts or lowered their larynx more than others in some area of the voice, not completely throughout and not 100% of the time, but they did do it when they wanted to. Lengthening the vocal tract happens in degrees and it's not the oversimplified explanation you will typically see about how every contemporary just sings "neutral" all the time and then every opera singer is "low" and that's it. That's oversimplifying the reality of it. It's like describing everyone's height only by saying tall or short or describing the weather by only saying it's cold warm or hot, and yes that is suffice for a colloquial conversation but things are more complicated than that.

 

Whitney Houston used a lower larynx position and her mom was classically trained. Lara Fabian does and she is classically trained, David Phelps does in his high notes and he is classically trained. I know most people may tell you this and this is bad and whatever, but can they resonate as intensely as Whitney and Lara Fabian? Can their neutral larynx tenors sing and sustain their C5s with the fullness and stamina of David Phelps? Can any of them understand and demonstrate the concept of lengthening your vocal tract/lowering your larynx to the point that they could literally sing next to Pavarotti like this @ 0:35?

 

 

in this thread, the only member who has demonstrated non-classical singing in the lower parts of the voice while resonating as intensely as Whitney or David Phelps' high notes is caipirinhas. And she posted on the page before this one saying that she sings with a lower larynx position.

 

but anyway back to the main question lol. You are more interested in a more "neutral" way and that is totally fine, like I said that's how I try to sing contemporary myself. Unfortunately just self-teaching will be difficult, you can try just sitting with an instrument and practicing on single pitches on a clear OH vowel. You can just straight up imitate Tori Kelly as best as you can. When singing low notes, you do not want to grind into the note, or dig into and involve too much constriction to hit the note. Some people think when you sing a low note then you do this really thick, constricted sound but you need to concentrate on keeping the vowel bright, clear and speech-like, and releasing the air on the low notes because it will take more air than you think for lower notes. Sing in a bright, speech-like clarity on each vowel and relax into the note as if you were doing a nice exhalation.

 

Its hard to learn while just reading descriptions like this, I can be saying something and thinking one thing in my head but you might read it and imagine something else in your head. The best way possible, if you don't have a teacher guiding you or something, is to record a clip and either post it here or PM it to me so we know where to go from there.

Aw, I've posted my singing a couple of times here but nobody responds XD. Well, except K that one time but he pretty much didnt see it as well.

[ZRH23]

I'm a light lyric soprano (so female) & I'd approach my lower notes not like Ailee at all actually.......the vocal analysis blog states that her lower register needs a lot of improvement & that her lowering her larnyx is one of the reasons why she mainly drops support & projection below G3 frequently (she's improved time to time, but it's not consistent)

 

I know that in opera/classical music that lowering the larnyx is the norm & is part of the technique needed to sing, but in contemporary music?

 

i don't know tbh, from what I've been taught & what I've read, lowering the larnyx is tricky bc it usually hinders proper support in the lower register mainly

 

If I were to improve my lower register, I'd love to approach it like Tori Kelly's:

 

https://youtu.be/gnZPaeOdCRI?t=56

 

From Eb3, I'd love to have the clarity & ease she has, but obviously I'd have to train & practice my voice to get to that point.

The vocal range video, the first C#3 and D3 were also really nice too. Love her lower range, not her mix much lol.

 

 

 

A bit random but speaking about Whitney Houston, I've always wondered if her fach had changed throughout her career (like in comparison from her debut era to like the late 90's before her voice was super damaged). I heard she was originally a spinto soprano. I know that generally women's voices tend to deepen with age (like Beyonce's did) & with pregnancy, but i just wanted to know out of curiosity

 

I might be wrong but Whitney has always been a spinto. Before the damaged voice, that is. I think she sang a lot brighter during the debut eras tho.

[ZRH23]

Just going off of this (sorry I've been a lurker for years, but I follow Hyorin closely lol). Also, I think the Eb5 that you linked sounded kinda closed though there seems to be support with it.

 

In this one, there are some D5/Eb5s (3:06-3:23), and although she seems to be pushing, there seems to be some support carried?

 

 

At 2:50 the D5-Eb5 line also seems well phrased and supported.

 

 

I think there was also a Crying performance that had a supported Eb5 before they disbanded and a Hwarang OST where she sustained an ok D5 (feel free to fact check me because I'm not 100% sure myself haha), so what I'm trying to get at is that she seems to have definitely recovered from what happened to her in 2015, and she seems to still be able to occasionally support up to Eb5 (albeit not consistently and not sustained).

Yea, the Eb5 I linked wasn't executed in the best way but she didn't drop support as much as she'd usually do. 

 

I actually linked a live 'Always' performance too and like I said anything about D5 has more tension than support. Even the D5 had some glottal tension there. It wasn't flat out strained with a high larynx but not supported either, the Eb5s in Always.

 

Yeah, I agree that she has recovered and is still improving. Her F5s nowadays are bright and not flat out throaty so her mixing is quite nice. Oh and the 2.50, that carried support too, though there's still that tension there. The F5 after that wasn't bad too.

 

Many vocalists around the AA-P and up are able to somewhat occasionally support a semitone or two above the supported range. Because their support isn't completely lost in that area. It's just that the support is overpowered by tension and such.

[ZRH23]

Is the Crying performance this one?

 

 

 

Ever since Ahmin started saying every single note Hyorin hits has glottal tension and went to search what that is and didn't sound a single video or site that says anything about it.

That's a nice performance. I think glottal tension is pretty much the kind of tension that comes from the back of the throat, usually from too much squeezing or pushing. There are some very specific muscle names involved but I don't remember.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_voice

 

This explains a bit

[ZRH23]

Lee Haeri's voice is so pretty bit her goat-like vibrato needs to stop ugh

 

Hyorin has actually a laggy vibrato because of the glottal tension, I always thought it was well produced, I'm a bit disappointed....

I wonder why vocalists as skilled as Lee Haeri isn't capable of producing a good vibrato. Same case for Lena Park too and a few others. And Hyorin's vibrato isn't really laggy...only occasionally, I think,

[ZRH23]

Because tension, really. The absence of tension is enough for what they do to he considered from supported to resonant, but even "resonant" singing can have degrees of tension to it

 

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Ah, really? That's interesting. But is there such a thing as no tension at all? Or does singing, in general, produces tension (or simply speaking)

 

Is one worse than the other? Like glottal tension is worse than idk tension caused from the nose?

Tension from the nose? lol Haven't heard that one yet. I guess the tension from the throat area can be more damaging from the ones at the jaw or tongue but it really depends on how severe the tension is. But throat tension causes strain more often than the others but not all the time too.

[ZRH23]

 

 

I thought she had a laggy vibrato because it honestly doesn't sound well produced, her notes often begins decently but then her vibrato kicks in and ... ugh. But I think it's related to her glottal tension, like her voice always gets tight. Her notes above D5 were never really satisfying... Always that occasional tightness and tongue tension.

The vibrato does kick in even more tension but I'm not sure I'd describe as 'laggy'. Maybe yeah. But it's not very good, yup. But it does have its moments. Hyorin just sometimes pushes the vibrato out so that really adds tension. Before her regression, I think Eb5 was probably her best note. Not a fan of D5s tho. And E5s also. I liked her F5s tho. It's weird XD

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

From my understanding, I think it depends on if you want to be nitpicky about what is classified as tension because technically the cricothyroid muscle (associated with falsetto) tilts the thyroid forward, lengthening and tensing the vocal folds (really, really simplified explanation for the actions) but honestly based on C.Y.'s phrasing when it comes to tension as just "removing as much tension as possible", I don't think it's possible to be 100% truly free of it, but you could be like 99% lol

 

 

I honestly would have voted Hyorin's mix over Ailee's mix back when Hyorin's voice was at its prime. Hyorin would seriously benefit so much from having even some falsetto development/ learning to engage the CT muscle more. There are others who have relatively weak falsettos also, but hers shouldn't be as weak as it is with how strong the other areas of her voice are. She doesn't have enough "release" in her singing to be able to sustain open singing in the fifth octave

Hm, I see. Getting all technical and biological stuff in singing lol.

And yes, that's what I always thought of Hyorin's mix above Eb5 in her prime, there's none of that 'release' and freedom of her notes especially when she sustains them. But I think Hyorin isn't very open or free with her resonance in general. Even in her good range of Bb4 till C#5, she doesn't really have a big resonance like I'd hear someone like...Taeyeon does. Or Eunji.

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

Not sure about Taeyeon, but Eunji's voice is inherently larger, though

Plugging my fave C5 from Eunji 0:51 because why not

 

 

Hyorin has her bigger resonance moments as well. The thing is that her vowel shaping varies.

1:51~2:01, 2:32~2:39, 3:05~3:09, the short B4s at 3:13, 4:27 the Bb4 part in this clip >>, 5:41 the B4s

 

 

 

I don't know any credible music sources at all . My knowledge is entirely from learning anatomy in my bio courses and wasn't explicitly stated with singing translation in mind, but yes technically there are all sorts of tensions that have to be present to functionally be singing, which is why when talking about tension in singing, it should be referring to the undesirable tensions. I'm having traumatic flashbacks from the time my prof wanted us to label the various ligaments, muscles, structures in the larynx at the start of that part of the body using the textbook and he used a schematic that wasn't even from that given textbook and the textbook had incomplete information

Oh, cuz Eunji's a Full Lyric? Yeah, I guess so but I rarely associate her resonance with her voice type much cause even though she's naturally heavier, her mix is so bright and heady that it doesn't really use the full lyric advantage lol.

 

Taeyeon is a light lyric, yeah.

Hyorin's moments were nice but I'm still left unsatisfied XD

 

Not sure about Taeyeon, but Eunji's voice is inherently larger, though

Plugging my fave C5 from Eunji 0:51 because why not

 

 

Hyorin has her bigger resonance moments as well. The thing is that her vowel shaping varies.

1:51~2:01, 2:32~2:39, 3:05~3:09, the short B4s at 3:13, 4:27 the Bb4 part in this clip >>, 5:41 the B4s

 

 

 

I don't know any credible music sources at all . My knowledge is entirely from learning anatomy in my bio courses and wasn't explicitly stated with singing translation in mind, but yes technically there are all sorts of tensions that have to be present to functionally be singing, which is why when talking about tension in singing, it should be referring to the undesirable tensions. I'm having traumatic flashbacks from the time my prof wanted us to label the various ligaments, muscles, structures in the larynx at the start of that part of the body using the textbook and he used a schematic that wasn't even from that given textbook and the textbook had incomplete information

Oh, cuz Eunji's a Full Lyric? Yeah, I guess so but I rarely associate her resonance with her voice type much cause even though she's naturally heavier, her mix is so bright and heady that it doesn't really use the full lyric advantage lol.

 

Taeyeon is a light lyric, yeah.

Hyorin's moments were nice but I'm still left unsatisfied XD

 

Like:

 

 

2.30, kinda regarded as her best C#5 (that were not from fancams anyways) and dont get me wrong, it's still nice but when you compare it too...

 

 

0.20 (I guess she sounded larger Here)

 

And

 

 

 

10.40 ~ 10.47, Taeyeon's resonance is quite large tbh

 

And

 

 

 

6.20 ~ 6.26, Luna in the 5th octave slays me too.

 

And lastly,

 

 

 

1.37-1.43, C5 to C#5. Gotta insert my bae Yuju though her voice right now has been exhausted to the ends limit and therefore incapable of producing even good supported C#5s anymore. But at least she's still got C5 down with big resonance.

 

Hyorin's is still nice but I just dont get 'Uumph' feeling from her. Maybe that's just my taste though but I think the girls I linked had bigger resonance.

 

 

 

 

 

sent from your mom.

[ZRH23]

Random question but isn't Sohyang a lecturer at a university regarding music? Does she primarily teach vocal pedagogy and the technique/training she's gotten in the past?

 

I've seen some of her lectures on Youtube and from what I could tell, it's mostly about musical style, arrangement and emotion of the sorts. Not exactly about technique though I think she does give a few tips here and there and demonstrations of how it's supposed to sound like and what is wrong. She doesn't usually outrightly teach the techniques and I can understand that since that could be utterly boring so I think she's mostly teaching the musicality aspect while sliding the techniques into it as well so that's smart. Is she necessarily a vocal trainer? I'm not sure but I think not.

[ZRH23]

Yuju C#5 on Hear The Wind Sing is not quite recent?

 

2:43

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Oh so I'm not the only one who knows that C#5 XD. It is during the Fingertip era and she's worse in the Summer Rain/Love Whisper anyways, But I have doubts about whether that performance was indeed live or not but the C#5 is still nice.

 

And that is the last time we've seen or heard of Yuju's resonant C#5, R.I.P  

[ZRH23]

Like Barbra Streisand with Beyonce, lol.

Well, that was a controversial statement that is very, very arguable. Especially since Barbra and Beyonce sing vastly different genres that focus on doing very different things and skills and there are multiple things one of them does that the other cannot do as good/ at all. It's very unnecessary to mention that when you know that whether Barbra is better than Beyonce and vice versa is not like...a FACT. Well. it might be a fact to you but you seem to have a very different objective when it comes to vocal technique compared to most people here so...it's not necessarily a fact yet. I definitely respect the opinion but please refrain from making these types of comments.

Edited December 31, 2017 by ZRH23

[ZRH23]

Facts are facts. Barbra is better. I specifically remember Barbra praising Beyonce.

Come to think of it, SoHyang said it about The One. That's another example, lol.

I know that Barbra has praised Beyonce. Again, saying one's better than the other in this case is very arguable but I suppose they are your facts if you choose to think so. Fact means something that is known or proven to be true, in which case, this doesn't apply to statement of Barbra being better than Beyonce unless taken in your perspective. Then again, it's hard to determine what is fact and what is not when comparing one's vocal techniques with the other's since some people hear things differently, judges things differently and etc. And C.Y mentioned something bout 'it might just be another pop singer who is not even near the level of themselves.'which is not true in this case. Regardless of different standards and what not, that's not true in this case lol. If say, Beyonce is weaker, she's not far from Barbra at all. If you think so then I do sincerely think that this is more to your preference rather than actual facts. Ah, whatever. I'll drop it here (hopefully). It's not really worth arguing about when our perspectives are so different.

 

The One compared to Sohyang is a much more reasonable comparison.

[ZRH23]

Honestly, I think they just praise other singers in a matter of courtesy. Especially Koreans. Unless they're like Mariah and just turns straight out shady when she wants to be lol.