Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[Jstarfully]

!!!! They did that to me too. Do you go to the vocal doctor often?? I heard mick jagger sees one like every week or something lol. Mabye I should try....

 

Haha no this was quite a few years ago and the closest I've gotten to something like that since then was signing the papers for an endoscopy I ended up never having. The time the doctor looked at my vocal chords I was having trouble swallowing (figured out myself later it's a medicine side-effect) and the latter thing was just me getting super sick from the common flu as usual :P

 

I don't think I use my voice enough to justify getting a regular ENT doctor - although I am going this year for something to do with my ears so maybe I'll ask them to do an in-clinic camera down the nose to look at my chords, just in case :P

Edited July 6, 2017 by Jstarfully

[Jstarfully]

*still thinks you're a soprano*

 

Dude I am a soprano! I even went and did a rough recording of myself singing with classical technique and there wasn't a major difference that would make me think mezzo so I very much doubt the people who said that to 13/14 year old me :P

 

I actually pressed my tutor about it today, because I said that I didn't think (nor feel like) I fit into either lyric nor full lyric soprano, and he said he was fairly sure I'd be considered a dramatic soprano. There's not the heaviness per-se, but there's the large size, the volume and the piercing quality achievable.

[Jstarfully]

why gaining them back lol ?? u can do so much with head voice ..... falsetto is just for style you can be stylistic with you Hv (ofc when u develop it ) you can still be airy with your head voice when u choose to 

 

Well it's more like if you've been singing in falsetto only for a long time and then you start learning how to use head voice you might not be able to sing all the notes that you are able to sing with falsetto until you develop your head voice more, that's essentially what I meant haha

[Jstarfully]

since people were discussing about rose from blackpink and yg training method. i wanna know what do you guys think on these former yg trainees who trained longer than rose and supposedly main vocal of the group before they left yg.

 

lee seoyeon is going to be in mnet idol school  sorry of the quality*

 

cho miyeon who was going to be in blackpink

 

The first girl was very clearly either herself trying to sound like Bom or had a trainer that made her sing like that, it's an exaggerated tone. The second girl reminds me a bit of Seulgi although I don't know why, she would've probably been a better main vocalist than Rose and the first girl. I'm surprised that they didn't force her to put on a voice like almost every other vocalist they have does, and it's nice to hear that there are those who come out of YG unscathed lol 

[Jstarfully]

the first girl used to sound like this

she's the one singing at the end. For the second girl she was going to be in BP but the company kicked her out because she's dating and actually both of the girl were kicked out for the same reason. There's another girl who was black pink main vocalist list that left yg due health reason. She's kim eunbi

i think she's pretty good for yg standard.

not to be sound dumb but how do you know a song is in key C or D etc

 

You first have to learn what keys are, and which keys have which accidentals in them. After that you can take the melody and play it out on a piano to look at accidentals and stuff, or you can straight up try to find the chords the song uses and that'll tell you the key.

[Jstarfully]

This talk about contraltos reminds me of the time I googled a list of contraltos in non-classical music because I couldn't be bothered coming up with an example myself and at the top there's like seven main examples, then a huge list underneath that.

 

There's like Annie Lennox who sometimes sounds androgynous to me, Amy Winehouse who has quite a dark voice, Adele who is probably a mezzo but I get where they were going with it, and then - RIGHT OUT OF NOWHERE AFTER ALL OF THOSE EXAMPLES IS JUDY GARLAND????????

 

Who actually thinks Judy Garland is a contralto?! That's so strange? Who put that there!?! I mean on top of just the fact that you can hear Judy Garland's non-contralto voice if you have functioning ears, but also back when they were auditioning for the original role of Dorothy they only had soprano actresses audition, and the broadway role of Dorothy is still meant to be sung by a soprano.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Jstarfully

[Jstarfully]

I've searched too and saw this video yesterday - what do you think about voices here?

 

 

And I've listened to Judy Garland and Idk actually, I'll listen what y'all have to say about her voice as I'm really interested in the topic. She sounds like a mezzo to me tho

 

#15 isn't an contralto, I don't think - that's a mezzo.

#14 is almost definitely a contralto.

#13 could be a contralto but she sings with a bit of a lowered larynx too, she could just be a mezzo.

#12 I think is just a mezzo

#11 I wouldn't know because the range of that clip is so small. She's also not singing it well and for a lower voice type she's not even placing those notes very well, I can make them sound clearer and less airy and I'm a soprano.

#10 Sounds a lot like a contralto to me

#9 I go back and forth on Cher because there are many moments where she sounds lighter and more like a mezzo but here she sounds like a contralto

#8 I don't know, it's similar to what I said on #11 except take away the part about bad technique. The clip has a narrow range, but she also does sound light enough to maybe be a mezzo to me.

#7 I really don't know, my initial impression is contralto but as the clip goes on I'm not so sure

#6 Similarly to Cher I go back and forth on Annie Lennox - in this particular clip she sounds like a mezzo to me though.

#5 Poor note enunciation and differentiation, plus the clip needs a larger range. I'm not sure what I think.

#4 (except it says #3 but it's the first #3 so it's #4) idk I'd need another clip where she's not singing so lightly and airily, just like the last one it's not enough to judge on.

#3 Yeah pretty sure this one is a contralto - also it threw me for a loop because I understood the language but didn't know which language it was and I wasn't looking at the garlands in the video for some reason so I ran through all the languages I know bits of until I realised it was Korean and hit myself a bit too hard in realisation

#2 Pretty sure this one is a contralto too

#1 I really don't know because it's partially covered by mic-feed effects and also it's in some weird country between hymn-land and traditional singing kingdom which means I can't pick apart the technique from the voice timbre.

[Jstarfully]

this is the #3 Moon Joo Ran now, is she really a contralto? then she might be the first known korean vocalist that contralto

 

 

 

Idk listening to different clips I keep going back and forth, I might wait to say for sure that she's a contralto before C.Y and caipirinhas come online and say their opinions. For me her lower range, especially in her lives are the evidence that she could be a contralto, but then her upper range can be very extended and light so idk anymore lol

[Jstarfully]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PNZQOxDHP9s

 

"mixing"

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jstarfully

[Jstarfully]

Those are different dynamic levels on the G3s. You can argue about the degree of support on the F3s--I said they weren't perfect or well-projected--but there is a modicum of support, which is why I included it. 

I've always known what a mix is. I've just never agreed that it has to be balanced, and I don't agree that the singers who are lauded in this thread are as good as people say. 

Also, I'm making a distinction between a "belt" and "mix." I know many people use it interchangeably, but it was the best way I knew to describe an older style (like Judy Garland, Ethel Merman, LSH) that was predominantly chesty (what you might call a chesty mix) and mixing as we see it today (with more of an emphasis on balancing it). But, it went a step further in that the goal of this belting style was to intentionally take your chest range to its limits for a more powerful and robust sound. Whether you agree with this style or not, it is still a valid vocal style with prominent vocal coaches and students even today. Your opinion of the style has no effect on its academic merit. 

 

EDIT: I always went back and forth on her being a mezzo or soprano. But, now I do agree she is a soprano. Anyway, the point of the video was to show she does consistently support higher and lower than stated in the analysis y'all gave when she wants to, but she chooses to use a style that y'all don't prefer. 

 

Okay, the issue is that you don't actually understand the style. Let me tell you why you're wrong:

 

First of all it's not an older style, I don't know why you're saying that. The first ever style was classical music, and the first instances of vocals in pop music began with the doo-wop movement. And then I don't understand where you got Judy Garland using this 'technique' of yours from, have you watched the original wizard of oz? She sings nothing like LSH.

 

The biggest flaw is that you think pushing your chest voice up is what belting is. That's not true and is a really harmful myth for people who may only use the internet to teach themselves how to sing. Even for a soprano, you will need to mix above C5 unless you want to flip over into head voice. And the mix doesn't have to be chesty to sound strong - that's your second misconception. You can have a balanced mix and still have a belting quality, it all has to do with resonance, support and placement. You can also have a balanced mix and still sound light and airy like a 'heady' mix. So sure, that style has academic merit, but just pushing your chest voice up doesn't.

 

Furthermore, I don't think you truly know what support is. A supported note is well projected, clear and steady by definition, and that F3 was anything but. Her high notes that you stated were supported and varied in dynamics weren't, and I honestly don't know if you've convinced yourself to hear something that nobody else hears or if you're deliberately trying to misinform people. Those notes that you said were softer and lighter sounded exactly like the notes before - the only difference was the backing track.

 

So no, LSH isn't better than what is stated in the analysis, and I respectfully ask you to stop spreading misinformation about vocal technique because you might actually be helping to confuse people who are trying to teach themselves using information available on the internet. If you have a question however or want to learn why the analysis said what it did, you are free to ask here and anyone would be happy to explain it to you.

[Jstarfully]

Okay, let me tell you why I believe you are wrong. There's a great level of unnecessary condescension in your post. But aside from that, you raise some valid points. I didn't say this was the first style of contemporary vocals, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. lol I said it's an older style, and if you don't think so, you're just wrong, frankly. Do you think it's recent? What do you mean it's not older? You give me a large sample size of vocalists born in the early half of the twentieth century who sing with a more balanced approach. From what I've seen, most serious vocalists then were either heavily classically influenced or very chesty. A lot of them, like Judy Garland and Mahalia Jackson, rarely even used head voice. And to really drive this point home, in around 1964/1965, Judy Garland made the comment that she and Ethel Merman were two of the last "true belters," as if the style were giving way to a new era of vocal thought (which it was with vocalists such as Barbra Streisand and Aretha Franklin). I'm mainly talking about the Korean context of vocals, anyway, but like I said, even then the first popular singers in Korea sang along more classical standards (ì†¡ì°½ì‹ and  ì–‘í¬ì€ being good examples), with most of the next line of serious vocalists being what I'd call "belters." I'm merely saying that in terms of belting and mixing technique as we think of it today, this was one of the first steps in that evolution, and that is true, whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

And I don't know why you are comparing a 17-year-old Judy Garland from the Wizard of Oz with LSH. Have you ever actually listened to Judy post 1950s? The technical approach between her and LSH is very similar. lol But I guess you didn't know that.

 

Okay, so I've studied vocals since my time at university and under a vocal instructor, so I'm not just "learning from the Internet," like you assumed. I'm referring only to a particular style that teaches the vocalist to take the chest voice to its limits. Of course this involves pushing the chest voice past healthy limits. Your implication that it doesn't is just strange. There are several older popular singers (like I mentioned) who follow along these standards and trained under them. Again, Judy Garland, Mahalia Jackson, Ethel Merman, etc. all follow this style to varying degrees, as do the Korean popular singers  ì´ì„ í¬, 최진í¬, 노사연,  ìœ¤ë³µí¬, etc. As a side note, there are professional vocal coaches, such as Lari White, who do use this same definition to refer to "belting" technique. In her words, a belt is a "healthy shout taken at the top of the chest range," with the power "money" notes of this belting style coming around "C5-D5." You may not agree, but you cannot act like what I am saying is not grounded in any type of academia. This is why I said it's a style with academic merit. And of course you can have a belting quality with a balanced mix. I'm just saying it won't have the same raw chesty power to it, and it won't. You are merely arguing semantics when I clearly gave reference to what I meant by "belting" in the video. It's more of a clarification issue than me trying to scientifically pinpoint what belting truly is. 

 

Of course I know what support is. I have said several times that the F3s were not very supported, but there IS a modicum of support, which is why they are included. That doesn't mean they are good notes. And the mixed notes and a couple of the G3s were hit with varying dynamic levels. What's your point?

 

So, yes, LSH is much better than stated in the analysis, which says her support goes from G#3-C5/C#5, when she has consistently shown the ability to mix with support until D#5 and support G3s with a great deal of projection (and below with bits of support). I know exactly why the analysis said what it said, thank you. I've discussed it at length. And thanks for your offer, but I don't need to ask anyone here to educate me when you are clearly uninformed throughout much of your post. I appreciate the effort and love an academic debate, but you're not bringing anything but shallow condescension and blatant misinformation that can be easily proven wrong with a little research. Thanks for taking the time, though. I always appreciate a response. 

 

First of all, I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was trying to list the reasons why I believed you to be wrong. I also wasn't assuming you were learning from the internet at all, I was saying that you were spreading misinformation for the people who learn from the internet.

 

Just because you don't use head voice doesn't mean you're automatically chesty, it just means you mostly use chest and mix. In the wizard of oz Judy Garland mostly did use a very balanced mix, and if she changed after that point it could very much just be that she got worse. And do we really trust the vocalists own opinion on themselves above all other information available? Mariah Carey once said she was a contralto. 

 

Singers famous in the 50's through to 70's that used a balanced mix; Patti Page, Peggy Lee, Patsy Cline, Nina Simone, John Coltrane, certain members of the Beatles and the Hollies, Leonard Cohen, Janis Joplin, The Supremes, Dolly Parton (then), Linda Ronstadt, ABBA, Olivia Newton-John and many others that I either forgot or am not sure of their techniques.

 

Your bit about how pushing your chest voice up being a better technique for raw chesty quality is honestly hard to respond to. That's because it's actually just not healthy and you're just shouting - it's raw because you're not really singing as much as shouting on key. That 'pushing your chest voice up' technique started from the misconception of mainstream pop artists that listened to broadway belting and thought it was from pushing the chest voice up and not from resonance, placement and support in a balanced mix.

 

I also don't know why you're using Lari White as an example of a famous vocal coach. She started only from singing herself, reached fame only in a very vague sense of the word on the country music scene, and has coached no notable artists to date. She isn't exactly an amazing source to bring up in an argument on technique. Also her quote about a 'healthy shout' is literally an oxymoron scientifically.

 

The mixed notes weren't hit with varying dynamic levels at all, and I honestly don't understand how you can keep pushing that point when it's so clear, even in your video, that the notes that you called 'light' sound exactly the same as the 'belted' notes.

 

Have you ever wondered why you're on the list of unreliable users? Maybe you should spend more time learning and researching on the things that are pointed out to you instead of standing by your points which have been remarked as wrong by several different people.

[Jstarfully]

Again, you're being unnecessarily condescending. But here we go:

 

Judy Garland used a much chestier approach post 1950s as her vocal health deteriorated. There's no denying this, and if you haven't been exposed to much Judy Garland outside of the Wizard of Oz, I'd suggest you don't argue that without hearing more first. I never said that just because you're not using head voice, you're automatically chesty. You're bringing up issues no one ever stated. I'm simply saying that mixed voice technique, as we know it today, was not as widely practiced then. Especially in the Korean context. Judy Garland and Ethel Merman belonged to a style of singing in the same vein as LSH, and they both were aware of it. 

 

Let me be more specific. I mean vocalists born around 1900-1930. In the forties, singers like Barbra Streisand were born. Of course, there were singers, people like Dolly Parton, Linda Rondstadt, The Supremes for instance, but they're even younger or around the same age as Barbra. I should have specified that distinction, but it was there all along. Were there some with balanced mixes before then? Of course. Judy demonstrated a balanced mix as high as C5, but again we're looking at a modern context that says a mezzo should be fine E5 and up and mix well until about F5. Patsy Cline wasn't doing this. Dolly Parton is a soprano, but she never mixed like SoHyang. You need perspective. You're trying to retroactively place your arbitrary guidelines on a whole array of vocalists from a different time period, and it doesn't make sense. You can't tell me that high-belters with balanced mixes like SoHyang and the people considered to be excellent in this thread were in large numbers at the time. They just weren't. But, you can find a plethora of people who sing almost exactly like LSH. And, it's important to know that that's just the Western context. I've only seen one Korean vocalist who was similar at the time, but again, she did not go way up like SoHyang. A majority of Korean vocalists born between the 40s and in the 60s were either classically trained or trained as belters. 

 

Here, you're taking issue with the healthiness of the style, and I never said it was as healthy, so I have no need to try and argue. I don't care what you think about the style. I'm saying it has merit. It does. Especially when properly executed. There are varying levels of support you can add in upper notes in this style. It's not simply a scream.

 

Lari White isn't intended to impress you by her fame. Even Seth Riggs isn't a household name. She's a professional vocal coach, and I only mention her because she has a very like-minded view regarding this technique, and she's quite a good vocalist, actually. Just because she doesn't have fame or famous students doesn't mean she doesn't know about vocals. I mean, has anyone here (including me) taught any "excellent-level" vocalist? Did you train anyone from the bottom up? I didn't think so. 

 

We're talking a lot about how that style was very popular before and many people used it and whatever, but at the end of the day the technique of that style, the one that you are arguing is still popular among popular singers today, is not good after all that we know today. So, judging by today's standards, LSH is not good. Singers can also develop even as they age, and if she is still in the industry at this point she should've been getting ongoing coaching throughout her career. Most professionals do.

 

I honestly don't want to argue with you more than that because it's clear that you are set in your ways, but the mixed notes are not supported well at all, they're mostly strain, and the F3s are mostly air and at the point where it's losing tone, meaning that they're not supported even a little bit. It's not just quiet, it's airy and blatantly unsupported. Also Seth Riggs may not be a household name, but the name holds merit among those who know about vocals.

[Jstarfully]

anyone else here keeping up with the idol school girls?

Yeah a little bit for me, but I feel like there's not enough stuff to make too many calls yet. I do find it interesting that they put Natty first. That's not to say I don't think she could be first, I'm just surprised is all.

[Jstarfully]

still didn't Show herin singing right ?

 

I don't think so, but I also have a really hard time recognising Herin without the super long hair and I get her mixed up with this specific one other trainee sometimes too. Must be awkward for her to be with the SM vocal coach again though, hope she left on good terms.

[Jstarfully]

I get why people bring health into singing discussions--it makes your beliefs more absolute--but I feel like this (quoted) is the most reasonable position to have. Although everyone does love Kirsten Flagstad or whoever, we don't know relevant information about who gets 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep every night, hydrates for 4 hours before singing, wasn't born with inconveniently located capillaries in their vocal folds, their hyaluronic acid levels, not overworking themselves, never gets sick, etc. well enough to say that's the one correct balance. It just sounds good and it's fine to judge technique that way. Anyways, not every lifestyle requires as much endurance.

 

No comment on LSH from me either. I do have an excuse to post this, cropped from a study I posted a few pages back. Here they also made a distinction between chestiness and belting, which looks like it goes pretty high, only they didn't test anybody doing D#5. It's of interest to me because it labels soprano range going down to at least G3 even for classical. It seems like that's considered part of a woman's range. While I'm quoting you, thanks for the reply. Not everyone has good speech habits, true. I watched a laryngoscopy video of an ENT looking at her own cords that weren't fully connecting to talk and she defended that as cultural and common.

 

 

Just as a kind of offside, but it is related to this kind of - I think except for the lowest voice types, there are plenty of people in the other four that just don't practice their lowest notes and don't value extending their lower range as much as extending their upper, and that's why you find the speaking range discrepancies. Plus, as you said, many people don't, kinda, talk correctly, per se. I mean in my chemistry class once we got an indicator paper out that measures the presence of the most common gases you breathe out, and in our entire class I was the only one who breathed properly/healthily and had the right colours show up.

 

Back to the vocal topic, I mean, I'm a soprano and I support down to F3, and can get a E3 out with a little less finesse. I think other sopranos might just not bother. 

[Jstarfully]

I wonder if learning vocal techniques could actually help with projecting our voice outside of singing, like, during teaching. I find it hard to make a presentation in front of my class if I constantly shout out my voice but then I started to remember vocal advices and tried to speak high but kinda light and try to aim for my 'cheekbones/mask' area. It actually worked LOL.

 

Now..to actually apply it when I'm singing :')

 

Well, I've always kinda naturally spoken and even breathed well and like, it's hard in the sense that my voice is always loud because I project even when I'm not trying to. It's easier to have a quiet voice you can modify to be loud than just a plain loud voice that you constantly have to remind yourself to keep in check lmao 

[Jstarfully]

I've always been able to project my voice and keep a very reasonable amount a tone throughout lol but it's just plain loud, I guess. Kinda like BP's Jennie, just overall pushy (I don't think I'm that pushy when I sing though, I'm relaxed below...Bb3. Basically I can't mix).

But it really tires out my voice, even when I'm just talking. My throat dries up in like, 2 minutes lol. I'm just loud lol.

 

I wanna record and post an audio, but I have only a VERY crappy microphone atm.

 

Ah see my voice is just normal loud without being pushy - I can get very loud with my speaking voice without sounding as if I'm trying to be loud if you get my point. And also I tend to do it accidentally when I get excited, to the point that people who know me well know to just nudge me and tell me to quiet down if I'm being too loud because I'd rather they tell me since I honestly don't realise.

[Jstarfully]

 

 

Lmao I felt really insecure when you used Part of Your World as an example of a sub-vocalists and their poor breath support like... was this inspired by me haha I'm an idiot 

[Jstarfully]

Oh and Jiwoo is okay too, haven't seen her sing high enough tho.

 

Even though most of the time I find myself thinking I'm stupid for even considering this, I'm kinda wondering if Jiwoo could be a mezzo. It's her speaking voice, the heaviness and also the fact that she starts having to mix earlier than the average soprano.

 

But like I said, I also tell myself that that's stupid and she's just a chesty soprano. My inner voices are fighting with each other over Jiwoo every time I hear her sing 

[Jstarfully]

Yeah, I just found some series clips of her singing. IDK how to judge voice types so...I won't comment lol. She's not bad at all, I'm wondering if Somin is indeed the better vocalist.

 

 

0.51, C5? Not that bad but pretty pushed, I think. Around the 2.00, her phrased B4 (?) sounded okay actually. Somebody judge this please lolol. . 

 

Oh Somin is 100% the better vocalist, I don't think that will be up for debate anytime soon really. She did a cover of Titanium on her insta I think, I saw it on reddit forever ago.

 

But yeah definitely up for discussion regarding the chances of Jiwoo being a mezzo 

[Jstarfully]

Well, if indeed Jiwoo is a mezzo, then certainly there's a chance of her being equal, if not, better than Somin. 

 

Jiwoo's issue is that she's not as consistent as Somin. Like, in that singing compilation she has some moments where she mixes A4-C5 really nicely without pushing or straining, but then in certain other performances she can be pitchy and has a tendency for both pushing and straining. It's like she knows the technique but it hasn't settled into muscle memory yet or something. Her head voice is also extremely underdeveloped, as shown in certain parts of that vocal compilation.

[Jstarfully]

I'm curious about Jiwoo's voice, there's also those covers they did of Bruno Mars Versace on the Floor and Arianna Grande Side to Side

 

 

 

 

 

*I'll just stay on the side to read you comments*

Somin's tone is so pretty and is Jiwoo a mezzo?

 

&feature=youtu.be

 

 

nice how jiwoo decided to go for those C5/C#5 using falsetto while somin went for them using her mixed voice

 

The more I hear the more I really believe she's a mezzo, she seems a lot more comfortable and her voice sounds better on the Bruno Mars cover as opposed to the Ariana one, but for a soprano most of Side to Side wouldn't be too challenging - hence supporting the idea that she's a mezzo.

[Jstarfully]

Okay first of all, EXO looks great but HEECHUL LOOKS 10 YEARS YOUNGER WITH THAT HAIR! Dayum, his visuals! So glad he got rid of that mop on his head lol.

 

And...why do they think it's a good idea for...well, a guy to sing that song...in the original key!?

His larynx was higher than the Eiffel tower, you could see that Adam's apple going straight up his throat.

But before 1.23, it was nice actually. I think he even managed to be resonant in some parts lol.

 

The G4 at 1:18 or so was really nice and almost exemplary imo lol

 

As for the rest... I mean first of all the fact that he managed to get up to a (pretty flat) F5 in his mixed is pretty crazy. He only managed to hit up to the D#5s on key though, and although he got up there with some discomfort (to say the least) he could probably do that again if someone asked him to, which is also pretty crazy.

The G5 was head voice though and everyone on the show reacts as if it's not which has me sitting here super confused 

[Jstarfully]

NOPE the G5 was mixed u confused me for a sec lol 

THAT AT 1:52 IS HEAD VOICE

RIGHT???? AM I HALLUCINATING OR SMTH??!?

[Jstarfully]

no lol it mixed he was mixing the whole song chen head voice is undeveloped it doesn't sound like that at all 

1:18 that his head voice 

 

I mean... it doesn't sound like it did in weekly idol but... it doesn't sound like mixed voice either aND NOW I'M REALLY CONFUSED????