Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[ZRH23]

15 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

Seungwoo, Sungwoon and Minhyun are all Averages?? wait, really?? i was always under the impression that were all like W-A at best, or worse. especially since this video from Himi on the thread says Junho is W-A, and the strongest in X1?

so is Seungwoo actually stronger than him?

oops you're right Hweseung was on Season 2, I completely forgot about that. what about Woodam from that PD101?

Yeah, probably. 

I don't like Sungwoon's approach and placement, quite whiny but yeah, support up to F#4 and throughout midrange.

Starting from @0:22, it's cleaner (but can still be slightly into his nose) than Sungwoon's and it's quite nice for him, support throughout up to those F#4s. Definitely Average. I think he sounds stronger than I remember, which is odd since apparently he hasn't released music since 2020. Or maybe I remembered wrong idk. 

@1:00, he sounds a bit softer than the other two but yeah, support seems to be present. The short phrased F#4s are all fine. He's the least developed I'd say, but sounds passable for Average. 

Junho was getting shallow and a bit stuck in his throat on F4s, Seungwoo was clean on F#4s so yeah, he's better lol.

I just checked Woodam for a bit and yeah, he's Average. Hweseung still leaves quite a gap from the others (to be fair, I think he wasn't quite as developed as now when he was in PD but still AA)

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, probably. 

I don't like Sungwoon's approach and placement, quite whiny but yeah, support up to F#4 and throughout midrange.

Starting from @0:22, it's cleaner (but can still be slightly into his nose) than Sungwoon's and it's quite nice for him, support throughout up to those F#4s. Definitely Average. I think he sounds stronger than I remember, which is odd since apparently he hasn't released music since 2020. Or maybe I remembered wrong idk. 

@1:00, he sounds a bit softer than the other two but yeah, support seems to be present. The short phrased F#4s are all fine. He's the least developed I'd say, but sounds passable for Average. 

Junho was getting shallow and a bit stuck in his throat on F4s, Seungwoo was clean on F#4s so yeah, he's better lol.

I just checked Woodam for a bit and yeah, he's Average. Hweseung still leaves quite a gap from the others (to be fair, I think he wasn't quite as developed as now when he was in PD but still AA)

 

wow, so Wanna One had 4 people who could support then, out of 11, and Nu'est vocal line had 2 out 5 (Baekho and Minhyun)....that's wayy better than I thought they ever were. I wonder if there was anyone else who was W-A. Daehwi? Ren? 

hang on, i think we're getting seungwoo and seongwoo completely mixed up, i meant is Han Seungwoo, this guy, stronger than Junho:

Spoiler

(purple hair)

not Ong Seongwu from Wanna One lmao. kind of crazy that both groups had a guy with a very similar name, just one alphabet difference.

i knew my deaf ears could hear Woodam could support!!

Edited September 18, 2022 by nana_moon

[BAZISSINO]

1 hour ago, nana_moon said:

Also, was Jaehwan the strongest male vocalist to come out of Produce 101? I know there's Wei's Seokhwa from PX101 who is Average, Junho and Seungwoo are W-A, Nu'est Baekho is an Average....was there anyone else on those seasons who was any good?

There's was another promising tenor in the second season but I can't remember his name ,he's not a visual so he got skipped in the nugu train

[BAZISSINO]

9 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

Nu'est vocal line had 2 out 5 (Baekho and Minhyun)

Ren and Aron also support and both are way less shallow than the other svt vocal line (minus the obv 2 Seungkwan and DK)

2:44 stronger grasp of support than (woozi,jeong,Joshua...)

 

 

[ZRH23]

26 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

wow, so Wanna One had 4 people who could support then, out of 11, and Nu'est vocal line had 2 out 5 (Baekho and Minhyun)....that's wayy better than I thought they ever were. I wonder if there was anyone else who was W-A. Daehwi? Ren? 

hang on, i think we're getting seungwoo and seongwoo completely mixed up, i meant is Han Seungwoo, this guy, stronger than Junho:

  Reveal hidden contents

(purple hair)

not Ong Seongwu from Wanna One lmao. kind of crazy that both groups had a guy with a very similar name, just one alphabet difference.

i knew my deaf ears could hear Woodam could support!!

Ohhh Han Seungwoo lmao. Pretty sure the ‘seungwoo’ name is spelled the same either way, it’s the surname that’s different. Okay yeah, Han Seungwoo is W-A at most. I guess you could say Junho is stronger but that guy only has like, 2 occasions where he tried a bit more in his midrange but he’s still shallow above E4ish. 
 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, BAZISSINO said:

There's was another promising tenor in the second season but I can't remember his name ,he's not a visual so he got skipped in the nugu train

there were so many of them i do not know this could be tbh.... the only person i could guess is Woodam because he had a whole storyline about being ugly and that's why he kept scoring badly and he's in a nugu group now.

20 minutes ago, BAZISSINO said:

Ren and Aron also support and both are way less shallow than the other svt vocal line (minus the obv 2 Seungkwan and DK)

2:44 stronger grasp of support than (woozi,jeong,Joshua...)

 

 

so Nu'est had 4/5 who could support, 2 Averages and 2 W-A? wow, Nu'est were underrated when they were active

9 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Ohhh Han Seungwoo lmao. Pretty sure the ‘seungwoo’ name is spelled the same either way, it’s the surname that’s different. Okay yeah, Han Seungwoo is W-A at most. I guess you could say Junho is stronger but that guy only has like, 2 occasions where he tried a bit more in his midrange but he’s still shallow above E4ish. 
 

they're actually different first names completely: Ong is 성우 and Seungwoo is 승우. it's just the romanization into English that creates all these issues, they're pronounced differently too.

but back on topic, well. the X1 season was kind of....bad vocal talent-wise then if Seungwoo was the main vocal (or was Woodz the main vocal? i'm a fake fan i forget).... i'm surprised Ong is an Average since he's from Fantagio which is an acting company, he needs to quit the acting (he's kind of rubbish at it anyways) and sing again then lmao what about Daehwi and Yoon Jisung? do they have any support at all?

also....on the subject of Seungwoo, is Seungsik an Average then?

Edited September 18, 2022 by nana_moon

[BAZISSINO]

47 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

knew my deaf ears could hear Woodam could support!!

If it the same park woodam yeah he can support  he's way less thin and soft than the likes of nu'ests minhyun

[himi]

1 hour ago, nana_moon said:

Seungwoo, Sungwoon and Minhyun are all Averages?? wait, really?? i was always under the impression that were all like W-A at best, or worse. especially since this video from Himi on the thread says Junho is W-A, and the strongest in X1?

so is Seungwoo actually stronger than him?

oops you're right Hweseung was on Season 2, I completely forgot about that. what about Woodam from that PD101?

 

33 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Ohhh Han Seungwoo lmao. Pretty sure the ‘seungwoo’ name is spelled the same either way, it’s the surname that’s different. Okay yeah, Han Seungwoo is W-A at most. I guess you could say Junho is stronger but that guy only has like, 2 occasions where he tried a bit more in his midrange but he’s still shallow above E4ish. 
 

I knew I wasn't trippin lol cuz I was so sure that Han Seungwoo is not average lmao. Understandable though I get mixed up with their names too sometimes ngl XD 

 

13 minutes ago, BAZISSINO said:

If it the same park woodam yeah he can support  he's way less thin and soft than the likes of nu'ests minhyun

I also checked out some of Woodam's stuff a while back and yeah seems like he should be average at the very least (oh look another 4th gen average lol smh)

 

He's a bit whiny in this one but E4s and some phrased F#4 in the chorus seem to be finely supported. 

 

A bit bolder approach here. 0:56 onwards E4~A4 seem promising

Edited September 18, 2022 by himi

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, BAZISSINO said:

If it the same park woodam yeah he can support  he's way less thin and soft than the likes of nu'ests minhyun

yes that's the same guy, he just lost weight and maybe got surgery idk

24 minutes ago, himi said:

 

I knew I wasn't trippin lol cuz I was so sure that Han Seungwoo is not average lmao. Understandable though I get mixed up with their names too sometimes ngl XD 

 

I also checked out some of Woodam's stuff a while back and yeah seems like he should be average at the very least (oh look another 4th gen average lol smh)

 

He's a bit whiny in this one but E4s and some phrased F#4 in the chorus seem to be finely supported. 

 

A bit bolder approach here. 0:56 onwards E4~A4 seem promising

honestly seeing Ong being called Seongwoo and not "Ong" is so weird....everyone calls him Ong....his mother probably calls him that....and i knew i wasn't tripping either because i love love love Seungwoo's solo stuff but i am realistic about his capability as a vocalist

Nice to know Woodam is safely Average!! now if only D1CE unflops and he finally gets his revenge on everyone who called him ugly

i wonder if there are other Averages hidden in the small groups of the 4th gen.... can anyone in Bae173, Omega X, or OnlyOneOf support even a little?

Edited September 18, 2022 by nana_moon

[ZRH23]

59 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

also....on the subject of Seungwoo, is Seungsik an Average then?

Yeah, and Seungsik is one of the better Averages I’d wager. Sounds like he could be high A. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, and Seungsik is one of the better Averages I’d wager. Sounds like he could be high A. 

delusionally praying he might be A-AA someday or even already is from his musicals....

but yay then he's not too bad (take that crazy Seungwoo akgae fans who are like ummm Seungsik shouldn't be the main vocalist of Victon)!! another Average from those 2016-2017 debut years that are also padding out the Average tier.

[RATY]

9 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

John Park didn’t regress, he’s just not as impressive as we initially thought . Not sure bout his ranking just yet, I just listen to him generally and he barely puts in effort in his mixed. Like, very barely. I don’t remember the last time he even tried to ‘belt’ something out, he mostly just goes for some lazy phrases around D4s - E4s, which isn’t exactly Proficient worthy when you’ve got tenors like Hongki or Junsu resonating consistently lol. He does have well rounded registers, but overall, he just doesn’t seem to have the capacity in his mixed range. It’s can be quite raw and unrefined too. 
 

Yeah, Hwanhee isn’t a baritone. He’s just a heavier tenor who sings darker and sort of neglects anything beyond G#4. I think Scott Hoying is indeed a baritone. He was never on the same level as belts as Hwanhee (it’s not like he regularly sustained G#4s lol) and plus, he’s much brighter in coordination, which makes sense and is still comfortably within the expected sound for a baritone. 

John Legend is also a chestier baritone who’s alright in his mixed, though he has some stylistic tendencies according to his genre. He mixes around and above G4 range often, but the sound is definitely different. 

 

I’m not too sure of the extent of Chi Yeul’s support, he might’ve shown some better moments above that perhaps. 
 

Baritones belting around G4/G#4 would be quite a different sound compared to tenors. The easiest way for me to explain it is by just imagining tenors struggling on C5s. They’ll have to adjust their vowels, more often than not, and their vocal tract also has to shaped to be more narrow. It’ll result in a more thinned out, pinched sound that obviously would take up a lot of effort and big adjustments to how they approach the notes. Think of the usual K-pop tenor navigating through a passage in the 5th octave. At best, maybe the advanced ones like Park Hyo Shin can manage the passages at C5 with more fullness but there’s still gonna be a degree of compression because of how much you have to adjust your tract. It’s possibly for tenors to land a more ‘free’ sound on C5s, but usually it’s a pushed, bright open vowel climax note kinda thing. You don’t hear them approaching back-to-back C5s with full on belting. 
 

That’s what baritones would most likely have to do when singing G4/G#4s lol. It’s possible of course, but not with the kind of intensity/approach that Chi Yeul did. He was just passing through the G4s just fine, except for his own issues, but he didn’t struggle with having to compress it or adjust his tract. Baritones don’t fizz out on or after A4 specifically, but it’s a very high note to be ‘belting’ on. I haven’t really heard a tenor ‘belting’ on C#5s without some obvious brightness and compression. 
 

About Changyeon, unfortunately no, he’s not really resonating anywhere in the performance. He’s just quite bright. @3:46, that’s thin and pushed, but it’s bright so it doesn’t sound too ugly. @3:52, again, thin and kinda more in the throat imo, even the G4 after isn’t that strong tbh. The G4 carries support, I meant that he doesn’t have the coordination to make it ‘resonant’ and it’s nothing much. @4:19, bright and high larynx. He’s an AA as far as I’ve heard. 
 

Han Dong Geun also has some quirks that’s got to do with his larynx position (most prominently) but I think it mostly translates to messy tongue lol. He gets rather pushy, but I’ve heard some quite nice belts up to G#4s, with some nice vowels and passable resonance imo. His A4s get a bit too pushed for me though. There could be some better moments. He’s got a nice lower range too, at least around C3, and most probably carries it down in 2nd octave too. 
 

Low notes are one of the aspects to listen to when identifying tenor or baritones, sure, but we gotta take into account on how Woorim sings. It’s not a really solid comparison between him and other pop tenors. Woorim is straight up ‘classical’ and he’s singing with a lowered larynx 90% of the time. This isn’t necessarily bad (though it’s not exactly proper by opera standards) but it does change the sound of his lows. There are some operatic tenors who can sound strong down to F2-Eb2 areas still. And personally, I do hear some tenor quality even in the low notes. 

Like in that first video, I’d expect a baritone of that coordination to be way fuller, and passing through that passage with less intensity spikes. Even with just normal pop larynx, I can phrase around A2/G#2 in just speaking sort of tone and effort, without the added ‘dips’ into the notes like what he’s doing. And he’s at his limit around F2/E2 (almost fry), which is low even for baritones, but I think if a baritone with that coordination were to sing it, it would’ve been way more present and less muddy. 

I have no idea but the raps they do can be pretty high pitched, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were tenors. 
Yes, Jung Joon Il is a tenor.  The convict is also a tenor . 
 

The E4 is giving me tenor vibes ngl. He doesn’t have that much presence there, yknow like I would’ve thought a baritone with that kind of larynx position would’ve sounded heavier. But he was not as low-larynxed there, it was a bit brighter so I think it’s a bit clear for me to be more of a tenor. 
 

The F4 has much more of a consistently low larynx position but again, it doesn’t exactly scream baritone to me. But there’s room in that clip for doubt. 
 

@0:40, his speaking range is more like a tenor’s to me. It can be a bit lower here and there cuz he likes to talk in fry (or sometimes even straight up low larynx too) but there’s a lot of moments there where he mainly talks in E3 - G#3 range, even up to Bb3ish in certain phrasing. He goes around A2ish at the end of phrases but again, it’s more like fry.

@1:00, meanwhile Chanyeol is averaging around B2 - F2, E3ish at the top phrases here and there. 

It’s not necessarily foolproof, but considering Woorim goes into the low larynx, dark sound 90% of the time (even when he’s speaking ), it’s the most direct comparison we can get. Chanyeol’s speaking range is pretty low by comparison, it just doesn’t sound like it. 
 

@0.50, peaks at around F#3ish but he mostly just stays at G2 area. 
 

So yeah, I think he’s a tenor probably. But that’s just me (and C.Y pointed it out to me along with an example of an operatic tenor who can produce the kind of sound Woorim is making in the lower ends of second octave). 

If Hwanhee wasn't a baritone, what would his rank be?

He can produce open notes up to G#4 but he generally has a slightly rough style in mixed voice, he doesn't have a supporting head voice. How much does his A2 help him? G#4 isn't that impressive if he's not a baritone.

I don't know how much gap there is with the lyric tenor .

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by RATY

[WWW3]

19 hours ago, fire_dagwon said:

Hey guys! I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before (I couldn't find any relevant posts even after I searched for them) but I just wanted to ask who are the true baritones in k-pop and Korean music as a whole right now? I of course used to think the usual suspects (V, Jaehyun, Sungjae, Seungyoon, Hwanhee, Hyunmin, Youngjae) were baritones, but they've gotten re-examined in recent years and I believe the current consensus is that most if not all of the previously thought baritones are actually tenors. 

I guess that leaves John Park, Roy Kim, Hwang Chi Yeul, Han Dong Geun, and maybe Ko Woo Rim of Forestella...? Ko Woo Rim is definitely more debatable and honestly I don't think Han Dong Geun is a baritone, so that just leaves John Park, Roy Kim, and Hwang Chi Yeul?

Are you guys sure that Seungyoon is a tenor? I have seen him used headvoice on F4 and I honesty don't think tenors can use the upper register that low.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by WWW3

[WWW3]

4 hours ago, RATY said:

If Hwanhee wasn't a baritone, what would his rank be?

He can produce open notes up to G#4 but he generally has a slightly rough style in mixed voice, he doesn't have a supporting head voice. How much does his A2 help him? G#4 isn't that impressive if he's not a baritone.

I don't know how much gap there is with the lyric tenor .

 

Chen had A2-A4 and is at Competent to Good, so I will say with his strong support he would be Competent if he isn't a baritone. Although Hwanhee to me is still a baritone, his Bb3/B3 sound like mixed note to me.

Edited September 19, 2022 by WWW3

[StraightforDoyeon]

is there a "healthy" way to growl

[RATY]

2 hours ago, WWW3 said:

Are you guys sure that Seungyoon is a tenor? I have seen him used headvoice on F4 and I honesty don't think tenors can use the upper register that low.

 

Seungyoon thinks of himself as a baritone too but when he performed this in front of a world-class soprano from Korea. She immediately protested to Seungyun that he sounded more like a tenor than a baritone.

0.12 F4 0.16 G4 He clearly shows tenor. The baritone wouldn't coordinate like this and that caused Sunmi Jo, who was familiar with the classics, knew immediately that he was not a baritone. The head voice can't really be used to identify his case, it's not developed.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by RATY

[ZRH23]

7 hours ago, RATY said:

If Hwanhee wasn't a baritone, what would his rank be?

He can produce open notes up to G#4 but he generally has a slightly rough style in mixed voice, he doesn't have a supporting head voice. How much does his A2 help him? G#4 isn't that impressive if he's not a baritone.

I don't know how much gap there is with the lyric tenor .

 

He'd still be at least a Proficient. His vocal weight in itself doesn't mean much (because in most cases, there's no discernible gap in difficulty for pop music at least) but Hwanhee coordinates wayyy heavier than the usual pop tenor. He does have a relatively lower larynx position and all that, and quite consistent with resonance up to G#4. He is basically the tenor version of MoonTaek now, except with less skill above G#4 but better lower range. But I wouldn't say he's beyond P-G, his mixed is very limited for a tenor. 

4 hours ago, WWW3 said:

Are you guys sure that Seungyoon is a tenor? I have seen him used headvoice on F4 and I honesty don't think tenors can use the upper register that low.

 

Aside from the clip RATY showed, the head voice thing is a bit of an inconclusive thing as far as vocal typing goes. Some can bring their head voice to the 3rd octave even. 

[fire_dagwon]

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

John Park didn’t regress, he’s just not as impressive as we initially thought . Not sure bout his ranking just yet, I just listen to him generally and he barely puts in effort in his mixed. Like, very barely. I don’t remember the last time he even tried to ‘belt’ something out, he mostly just goes for some lazy phrases around D4s - E4s, which isn’t exactly Proficient worthy when you’ve got tenors like Hongki or Junsu resonating consistently lol. He does have well rounded registers, but overall, he just doesn’t seem to have the capacity in his mixed range. It’s can be quite raw and unrefined too. 

Oh wow I didn't know that lol I was just going off of his KVA profile and I think before Ahmin got rid of the ranking system John Park was rated as Proficient.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, Hwanhee isn’t a baritone. He’s just a heavier tenor who sings darker and sort of neglects anything beyond G#4. I think Scott Hoying is indeed a baritone. He was never on the same level as belts as Hwanhee (it’s not like he regularly sustained G#4s lol) and plus, he’s much brighter in coordination, which makes sense and is still comfortably within the expected sound for a baritone. 

I don't know... both Hwanhee and Scott Hoying belt past G#4 quite a bit from what I've seen at least? But you're obviously more knowledgeable than me so I'll take your word for it lol. If Scott is a true baritone then he's also the lightest baritone I've ever heard, his notes have practically no weight to them from what I hear lmao.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

John Legend is also a chestier baritone who’s alright in his mixed, though he has some stylistic tendencies according to his genre. He mixes around and above G4 range often, but the sound is definitely different. 

Chris Martin of Coldplay is also a true baritone right?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Baritones belting around G4/G#4 would be quite a different sound compared to tenors. The easiest way for me to explain it is by just imagining tenors struggling on C5s. They’ll have to adjust their vowels, more often than not, and their vocal tract also has to shaped to be more narrow. It’ll result in a more thinned out, pinched sound that obviously would take up a lot of effort and big adjustments to how they approach the notes. Think of the usual K-pop tenor navigating through a passage in the 5th octave. At best, maybe the advanced ones like Park Hyo Shin can manage the passages at C5 with more fullness but there’s still gonna be a degree of compression because of how much you have to adjust your tract. It’s possibly for tenors to land a more ‘free’ sound on C5s, but usually it’s a pushed, bright open vowel climax note kinda thing. You don’t hear them approaching back-to-back C5s with full on belting. 
 

That’s what baritones would most likely have to do when singing G4/G#4s lol. It’s possible of course, but not with the kind of intensity/approach that Chi Yeul did. He was just passing through the G4s just fine, except for his own issues, but he didn’t struggle with having to compress it or adjust his tract. Baritones don’t fizz out on or after A4 specifically, but it’s a very high note to be ‘belting’ on. I haven’t really heard a tenor ‘belting’ on C#5s without some obvious brightness and compression. 

Ah, so you're saying that a baritone belting up to G#4/A4 would sound incredibly thin, just like a tenor belting up to C5, but some more advanced and better trained baritones can still sound relatively full, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Then a baritone's "C5" is A4, right? Or would it be G#4?

A4 is a really tough note to hit for baritones. Even Park Hyo Shin as good as he is isn't 100% consistent on his C5's, hence why his KVA profile lists his supported range as B4/C5. Which is funny because he has supported and even resonated C#5's before lol.

Is there any contemporary tenor alive today who can fully, consistently support and resonate in the lower fifth octave? David Phelps maybe?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

About Changyeon, unfortunately no, he’s not really resonating anywhere in the performance. He’s just quite bright. @3:46, that’s thin and pushed, but it’s bright so it doesn’t sound too ugly. @3:52, again, thin and kinda more in the throat imo, even the G4 after isn’t that strong tbh. The G4 carries support, I meant that he doesn’t have the coordination to make it ‘resonant’ and it’s nothing much. @4:19, bright and high larynx. He’s an AA as far as I’ve heard. 

Meh, I don't really care about him because I don't know him or listen to him tbh. I just thought he sounded really open is all haha.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Han Dong Geun also has some quirks that’s got to do with his larynx position (most prominently) but I think it mostly translates to messy tongue lol. He gets rather pushy, but I’ve heard some quite nice belts up to G#4s, with some nice vowels and passable resonance imo. His A4s get a bit too pushed for me though. There could be some better moments. He’s got a nice lower range too, at least around C3, and most probably carries it down in 2nd octave too. 

I agree. A4 is just about his limit and where he starts to get rather inconsistent. This A4 in Downpour at 3:20 is probably his best and most well-placed. It has some slight throatiness though.

His A4's in his busking performance of Amazing You starting at 3:43 and especially the one at 3:48 all sound very nice to me despite the major pushing.

If he's consistent up to G#4, then his rating would be at least AA right? Maybe AA to P? And what his voice type be? I know he can sound either very light or dark depending on the song, so for me it's really hard to judge. My best guess is he's a Full-Lyric Tenor?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Low notes are one of the aspects to listen to when identifying tenor or baritones, sure, but we gotta take into account on how Woorim sings. It’s not a really solid comparison between him and other pop tenors. Woorim is straight up ‘classical’ and he’s singing with a lowered larynx 90% of the time. This isn’t necessarily bad (though it’s not exactly proper by opera standards) but it does change the sound of his lows. There are some operatic tenors who can sound strong down to F2-Eb2 areas still. And personally, I do hear some tenor quality even in the low notes. 

Like in that first video, I’d expect a baritone of that coordination to be way fuller, and passing through that passage with less intensity spikes. Even with just normal pop larynx, I can phrase around A2/G#2 in just speaking sort of tone and effort, without the added ‘dips’ into the notes like what he’s doing. And he’s at his limit around F2/E2 (almost fry), which is low even for baritones, but I think if a baritone with that coordination were to sing it, it would’ve been way more present and less muddy. 

Hm, I know he lowers his larynx quite a bit, but I didn't know that he had a classical background which caused him to do that. He's either an extremely low tenor or a true baritone, and I honestly think he's a baritone.

Oh and I didn't know you were a baritone either lol. Are you trained? I'm completely untrained lmao. I think I'm also a baritone or a very shitty tenor, I really have no idea because my lowest note is D2 (C#2 on a good day and idk about my fry) and my maximum comfortable belt is G#4. My A4 is inconsistent but improved a lot from my earlier years. Bb4 I can do once in a blue moon in my absolute best condition lol. I can falsetto up to C6 and maybe D6 on a good day.

5 hours ago, WWW3 said:

Are you guys sure that Seungyoon is a tenor? I have seen him used headvoice on F4 and I honesty don't think tenors can use the upper register that low.

I doubt it myself honestly, but apparently he is. In that tweet RATY posted he managed to squawk out a Bb4. With some decent training he could probably join the ranks of the prestigious Full-Lyric/Spinto Tenor squad in k-pop lol. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by fire_dagwon
Formatting

[WWW3]

29 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Aside from the clip RATY showed, the head voice thing is a bit of an inconclusive thing as far as vocal typing goes. Some can bring their head voice to the 3rd octave even. 

Really? Do you have any examples of that?

[BabyKBK]

1 hour ago, ZRH23 said:

He'd still be at least a Proficient. His vocal weight in itself doesn't mean much (because in most cases, there's no discernible gap in difficulty for pop music at least) but Hwanhee coordinates wayyy heavier than the usual pop tenor. He does have a relatively lower larynx position and all that, and quite consistent with resonance up to G#4. He is basically the tenor version of MoonTaek now, except with less skill above G#4 but better lower range. But I wouldn't say he's beyond P-G, his mixed is very limited for a tenor. 

Aside from the clip RATY showed, the head voice thing is a bit of an inconclusive thing as far as vocal typing goes. Some can bring their head voice to the 3rd octave even. 

 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

 

His A4's in his busking performance of Amazing You starting at 3:43 and especially the one at 3:48 all sound very nice to me despite the major pushing.

If he's consistent up to G#4, then his rating would be at least AA right? Maybe AA to P? And what his voice type be? I know he can sound either very light or dark depending on the song, so for me it's really hard to judge. My best guess is he's a Full-Lyric Tenor?

While specifically labelling pop and kpop singers with sub-typing a isn't necessary at all,

Han Dong geun is heavier than a full lyric from that video. The "Full-lyric" label has been used as an umbrella term to generalise any voice that sounds bigger and mature in kpop and pop. A lot of these supposed Full-Lyrics would arguably be Spinto and Dramatics if classically trained. Meanwhile some "full-lyrics" like Celine Dion, Hyena Park, Lara Fabian and Sonnet Son are actually developed standard sopranos. Their voices carry very little weight and is actually light in timbre despite sounding matured.

I don't want to debate much but let's just say spinto and dramatic voice types have been under-identified. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by BabyKBK

[Tsukimono]

52 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

 

Ah, so you're saying that a baritone belting up to G#4/A4 would sound incredibly thin, just like a tenor belting up to C5, but some more advanced and better trained baritones can still sound relatively full, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Then a baritone's "C5" is A4, right? Or would it be G#4?

A4 is a really tough note to hit for baritones. Even Park Hyo Shin as good as he is isn't 100% consistent on his C5's, hence why his KVA profile lists his supported range as B4/C5. Which is funny because he has supported and even resonated C#5's before lol.

my maximum comfortable belt is G#4. My A4 is inconsistent but improved a lot from my earlier years. 

A4 is a tough note for both tenors and baritones, especially untrained ones. I'm an untrained tenor that started singing a few months ago, and I just started attempting recently to sing G4 and above since my second passaggio ends around F4/F#4. 

I sing very thin throughout, but after some warming up highest belt is G5. Anything from G4/G#4-G5 is extra thin for me personally. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Tsukimono

[ZRH23]

46 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

Oh wow I didn't know that lol I was just going off of his KVA profile and I think before Ahmin got rid of the ranking system John Park was rated as Proficient.

Yeah, I remember that too. John Park was at the top of P for the male vocalists. It's not like he regressed, I just have a different opinion on him personally and disagree with how his mixed was analysed. The same goes for Jamie actually, who was alos given top P rank but look how that turned out lol.

48 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

I don't know... both Hwanhee and Scott Hoying belt past G#4 quite a bit from what I've seen at least? But you're obviously more knowledgeable than me so I'll take your word for it lol. If Scott is a true baritone then he's also the lightest baritone I've ever heard, his notes have practically no weight to them from what I hear lmao.

Nahh, don't just take my words for it just yet lmao. If there's any doubt, that's still valid. I haven't really checked Scott's recent vocals, but I do remember sometimes going for phrased A4/Bb4, which are still reasonable. I don't think he actively belts there afaik. What screams baritone for Scott is more so his E4 - F#4, the range where baritones have that sweet spot for belting (like a tenor's G4 - A4 or soprano's C5 - Eb5). 

@0:44, he was singing less bright here and not very refined mixing wise tbh (trying for that growly, chesty sound) but that's an F#4 and I haven' heard a tenor having to sing that note with that kind of stretch before. @1:05, same for this F#4. @1:52, F4, this time cleaner and brighter, it's still quite belty for him.  He's singing with that kind of intensity in range of like D4 - F#4.  @2:18, F#4s are squeezed and I think it's more of a high larynx kinda feel here (I'm not sure if this is old or he's just not that consistent here). See, it is possible for tenors to sound rough or overly pushed on F#4s if they're darkening their voice too much and all that, but I've never heard them have a high larynx on simple F#4s lol. @2:27, this attempt is better, he's struggling with the vowel/tract shaping(also not something i've found in tenors). @3:13, this sounds like a baritone belting in the middle to low 4th octave. Even tenors who put in effort to round their vowels on Eb4s don't have this intensity down there. To me, it's just like when tenors go for F#4- A4. @5:56, G#4 was his limit back then, you hear the comparison compared to Seungyoon blasting out a G4 randomly lol.

Meanwhile for Hwanhee: @4:40, it's not nearly as intense as Scott's. And he doesn't have to adjust much for it either. Tenors already start belting at F#4 of course, but it doesn't sound or feel particularly high from them, even with Hwanhee's more narrow vowel shaping sometimes. @4:47, a relatively brighter G4 from Hwanhee and it doesn't carry the sense of struggle that Scott does on F#4s. I also never heard Scott approach G4s head on like that before (there may be some moments that I dont know bout tho). 

Alos, yes, Hwanhee's A4 and above sounds hella compressed like what I mentioned to be what's expected of tenors by C5s or so. Well... that's just his doing lol. He just never really figured how to belt fully past G#4 and resorts to doing adjustments earlier than where he's supposed to. It's quite weird for a tenor but yeah. Before he went into this journey of his very heavy approach, Hwanhee was kinda bright in his early days. 

@2:05, A4 is definitely giving tenor sound lmao. It's very early SM too, approach wise. 

I wouldn't say Scott carries no weight per se, but I think we're used to expecting baritones to sound like heavy tenors lol. Not really. Lyric baritones like Scott will probably just sound like a pop tenor, just a few semitones lower. Not everyone will sound like Frank Sinatra, there's a very obvious, distinct coordination there that makes that sound. Pop baritones will sound poppy. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

Ah, so you're saying that a baritone belting up to G#4/A4 would sound incredibly thin, just like a tenor belting up to C5, but some more advanced and better trained baritones can still sound relatively full, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Then a baritone's "C5" is A4, right? Or would it be G#4?

A4 is a really tough note to hit for baritones. Even Park Hyo Shin as good as he is isn't 100% consistent on his C5's, hence why his KVA profile lists his supported range as B4/C5. Which is funny because he has supported and even resonated C#5's before lol.

Is there any contemporary tenor alive today who can fully, consistently support and resonate in the lower fifth octave? David Phelps maybe?

Not necessarily incredibly thin, but it'll be rather obvious if they're going to try constant G#4s like Hwanhee does lmao. They might also be able to mix brightly like tenors in the 5th octave but there's limited examples for baritones. I'm not sure of the exact equivalent note-by-note, but A4s is around C5 level of intensity yeah. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

Is there any contemporary tenor alive today who can fully, consistently support and resonate in the lower fifth octave? David Phelps maybe?

Yeah, David Phelps is one, and also someone who incorporates that more lowered larynx into his belts. There are probably others but I don't have anyone in mind so far. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone who can go brightly into those C5/C#5 area, we already have a few in Korean music who can maintain that at B4s so.. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

I agree. A4 is just about his limit and where he starts to get rather inconsistent. This A4 in Downpour at 3:20 is probably his best and most well-placed. It has some slight throatiness though.

His A4's in his busking performance of Amazing You starting at 3:43 and especially the one at 3:48 all sound very nice to me despite the major pushing.

If he's consistent up to G#4, then his rating would be at least AA right? Maybe AA to P? And what his voice type be? I know he can sound either very light or dark depending on the song, so for me it's really hard to judge. My best guess is he's a Full-Lyric Tenor?

A bit too pushed for me on that A4. The phrased ones maybeee I can give a pass but it's still meh for me personally. Yeah, he'd be at least AA. He doesn't sound as naturally weighty as K-Will/Chi Yeul to me even when he lowers his larynx a bit. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

Hm, I know he lowers his larynx quite a bit, but I didn't know that he had a classical background which caused him to do that. He's either an extremely low tenor or a true baritone, and I honestly think he's a baritone.

Far enough lol. I don't really care much since he doesnt sing in a tenor range anyway. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

Oh and I didn't know you were a baritone either lol. Are you trained? I'm completely untrained lmao. I think I'm also a baritone or a very untrained tenor, I really have no idea because my lowest note is D2 (C#2 on a good day and idk about my fry) and my maximum comfortable belt is G#4. My A4 is inconsistent but improved a lot from my earlier years. Bb4 I can do once in a blue moon in my absolute best condition lol. I can falsetto up to C6 and maybe D6 on a good day.

Yeah, I'm a baritone lol. No, I'm not trained, but I did practice a bit of the basics. If you're completely untrained and can have a comfortable belt at G#4, you sound like a straight up tenor to me lol. When I started singing, my ass was struggling with hitting E4s, much less anything above G . Untrained tenors also would struggle in that range so that sounds pretty in line. Also, I do think that the limits for falsetto/head voice can vary person-to-person but in my case, Bb5 is my limit. I physically can't go beyond that with my head voice, at the time being (I also am not gonna bother my way up there lol). And around G5 area, it would already be hella high for a baritone (you can hear Scott's for reference) but tenors can do it pretty often in their songs so. 

1 hour ago, WWW3 said:

Really? Do you have any examples of that?

Not in artists, I only heard from other people. There's no point of doing that musically speaking haha, I was just saying that tenors transitioning into head voice at their passagio is still defo possible. 

1 hour ago, BabyKBK said:

 

While specifically labelling pop and kpop singers with sub-typing a isn't necessary at all,

The "Full-lyric" label has been used as an umbrella term to generalise any voice that sounds bigger and mature in kpop and pop. A lot of these supposed Full-Lyrics would arguably be Spinto and Dramatics if classically trained. Meanwhile some "full-lyrics" like Celine Dion, Hyena Park, Lara Fabian and Sonnet Son are actually developed standard sopranos. Their voices carry very little weight and is actually light in timbre despite sounding matured.

I don't want to debate much but let's just say spinto and dramatic voice types have been under-identified. 

Well yeah, and it can be quite obvious too who the weightier ones are. But I dont really see the point of identifying spintos and all that specifically, I just call them heavy sopranos/tenors. Eunji is definitely not just full-lyric for example but it doesn't really matter with her kind of singing. 

[WWW3]

2 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

 Not in artists, I only heard from other people. There's no point of doing that musically speaking haha, I was just saying that tenors transitioning into head voice at their passagio is still defo possible. 

people can only start using the upper register around  their second passaggi, right? Around the first passaggi is where you start mixing and around the second passaggi is where you start using your upper register, is that not true?

[ZRH23]

12 minutes ago, WWW3 said:

people can only start using the upper register around  their second passaggi, right? Around the first passaggi is where you start mixing and around the second passaggi is where you start using your upper register, is that not true?

I’m not sure how true that is. You can still engage in the muscles responsible for your head voice even below your passagi. I personally can use it down to D3/C#3ish but like… there’s no reason to . Plus, the sound does get quite weak down there so like I said, it doesn’t seem musically beneficial either. But using those muscles down there is definitely possible and not exclusive after your 2nd passagi.

I’ve also heard the sopranos sing in head voice in the lower 4th octave as well. 

[ohlady]

Stupid question but would people with no vocal development be in the "Weak" category with all the lead/main vocals who don't support properly or do they just not qualify for that ranking system at all?