Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[BAZISSINO]

 

 

The kinda content we need in the community right now (just imagine this for the other vocal pioneers like TV5XQ ,suju,EXO,shinee,btob ..... )

[galhadineas]

4 hours ago, BAZISSINO said:

 

 

The kinda content we need in the community right now (just imagine this for the other vocal pioneers like TV5XQ ,suju,EXO,shinee,btob ..... )

this youtube channel is so good, the videos are really good

[NoelVys]

12 hours ago, galhadineas said:

this youtube channel is so good, the videos are really good

I would just like to say that: same, I love this channel. it's so interesting to see how SNSD's vocal layering used to work and hear the isolated vocals and such

[StepOnMeJas]

18 hours ago, BAZISSINO said:

 

 

The kinda content we need in the community right now (just imagine this for the other vocal pioneers like TV5XQ ,suju,EXO,shinee,btob ..... )

This channel would be a lot better if they didn’t make a ton of mistakes, (even in this video), and delete comments when people call out their inaccuracies

[Messica]

19 hours ago, BAZISSINO said:

 

 

The kinda content we need in the community right now (just imagine this for the other vocal pioneers like TV5XQ ,suju,EXO,shinee,btob ..... )

i had no idea Jessica did that much harmonies. I gotta love seosica harmonies

[Tsabar]

You all should check the recent Immortal Songs episode, Minhye, Boram, Ailee, Sunye, Lim Jeonhee and Bada competing against each other, quite exciting !

[RATY]

3 hours ago, Tsabar said:

You all should check the recent Immortal Songs episode, Minhye, Boram, Ailee, Sunye, Lim Jeonhee and Bada competing against each other, quite exciting !

I just listened to Sunye @3.11. I don't know if people here would call it an resonance but at least it's a nice and open note , unfortunately when she went to C#5 Her throat was slightly closed, not open like the previous C5.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by RATY

[galhadineas]

1 hour ago, RATY said:

I just listened to Sunye @3.11. I don't know if people here would call it an resonance but at least it's a nice and open note , unfortunately when she went to C#5 Her throat was slightly closed, not open like the previous C5.

 

lol the difference in quality between the C5 and the C#5, it almost sounded like two different people singing

the C5 was really nice but the C#5 she dropped support, her larynx raised and that vibrato in the beginning of the note was also really weird 

[Tsabar]

1 hour ago, galhadineas said:

lol the difference in quality between the C5 and the C#5, it almost sounded like two different people singing

the C5 was really nice but the C#5 she dropped support, her larynx raised and that vibrato in the beginning of the note was also really weird 

I wouldn't say the C#5 was completely unsupported, it was just messier and less strong, in my opinion atleast. She phrased C#5-D5 fine after it anyway.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Tsabar

[BAZISSINO]

3 hours ago, galhadineas said:

lol the difference in quality between the C5 and the C#5, it almost sounded like two different people singing

the C5 was really nice but the C#5 she dropped support, her larynx raised and that vibrato in the beginning of the note was also really weird 

Two diffrent ppl ? To this extend ? You're too dramatic and exaggerating lmao .....her larynx didn't really raise but she was closing off on the C#5 

Edited September 17, 2022 by BAZISSINO

[galhadineas]

1 hour ago, BAZISSINO said:

Two diffrent ppl ? To this extend ? You're too dramatic and exaggerating lmao .....her larynx didn't really raise but she was closing off on the C#5 

For someone who was singing a really opened C5 to go for a C#5 like that? Yeah, it almost sounded like a completely different person imo. Usually there's not that difference when singing a semitone higher.

 

3:18 

2:56 and 3:05

 

[fire_dagwon]

Hey guys! I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before (I couldn't find any relevant posts even after I searched for them) but I just wanted to ask who are the true baritones in k-pop and Korean music as a whole right now? I of course used to think the usual suspects (V, Jaehyun, Sungjae, Seungyoon, Hwanhee, Hyunmin, Youngjae) were baritones, but they've gotten re-examined in recent years and I believe the current consensus is that most if not all of the previously thought baritones are actually tenors. 

I guess that leaves John Park, Roy Kim, Hwang Chi Yeul, Han Dong Geun, and maybe Ko Woo Rim of Forestella...? Ko Woo Rim is definitely more debatable and honestly I don't think Han Dong Geun is a baritone, so that just leaves John Park, Roy Kim, and Hwang Chi Yeul?

Edited September 18, 2022 by fire_dagwon
Conciseness

[ZRH23]

7 hours ago, galhadineas said:

For someone who was singing a really opened C5 to go for a C#5 like that? Yeah, it almost sounded like a completely different person imo. Usually there's not that difference when singing a semitone higher.

 

3:18 

2:56 and 3:05

 

People going off on key changes can definitely happen, the usual factor is their cords/placement at the note. Some singers have their ‘money note’ on just one, then lose most of the good qualities when they jump to the next one. It’s not exactly easy to do it tbh, a semitone difference in the 5th octave is a lot especially if you’re trying to maintain the same sound. Granted ofc, Sunye does have a problem with her somewhat flimsy coordination, she can usually do better but I’m not surprised it just sort of gave out. 
 

Kei was just pushing her way through so I wouldn’t count that as a good example. Ailee is … Ailee lol, can’t compare that to Sunye’s case. Her cords are just way stronger than Sunye’s so she won’t have much of a struggle unless she’s overdoing the whininess. C5/C#5 is comfortable within Ailee’s limits, but it’s at the top for Sunye’s. The same way I wouldn’t put an example of key changes with Haeri even if it’s Eb5/E5  lol.  
 

Yuju at the time with C#5 as her limit. @3:50, open C5 but the C#5 got into her nose and her cords at the time weren’t that strong so it ends up sounding weaker even though she’s trying. 

It’s a pretty common thing for a vocalist that’s singing near the top of their limit. There’s only a few exceptions I can think of who really just do quite well even at the top of their comfort zone (like Chen with those G#4-A4 notes in that OST of his), but it’s more nuanced than that. Nonetheless, jumping from one note to the other while belting is pretty difficult especially for everyone below P. 
 

35 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

Hey guys! I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before (I couldn't find any relevant posts even after I searched for them) but I just wanted to ask who are the true baritones in k-pop and Korean music as a whole right now? I of course used to think the usual suspects (V, Jaehyun, Sungjae, Seungyoon, Hwanhee, Hyunmin, Youngjae) were baritones, but they've recently gotten re-examined in recent years and I believe the current consensus is that most if not all of the previously thought baritones are actually tenors. 

I guess that leaves John Park, Roy Kim, Hwang Chi Yeul, Han Dong Geun, and maybe Ko Woo Rim of Forestella...? Ko Woo Rim is definitely more debatable and honestly I don't think Han Dong Geun is a baritone, so that just leaves John Park, Roy Kim, and Hwang Chi Yeul?

Uhh, I haven’t really been searching out for baritones per se, but the most certain one would definitely be John Park. Which is a shame, cuz he’s not that impressive vocally lmao, so turns out there’s no belter baritones. 
 

Roy Kim and Hwang Chi Yeul are definitely tenors. 
 

He just sings in a relatively lower average range for a tenor. It can still work well cuz he brings some roundness around F4 already. @5:16, F#4, straight tenor. He’s not really darkening his sound either so it’s kinda clear. @5:32, G4 - A4. Pretty sure he’s had some good G4 notes too. 
 

Hwang Chi Yeul ,on the other hand, is weightier and often adds some artificial darkness/muddy quality to his voice (a lot of tongue issues follow). But the way he sings in the 4th octave is still very tenor. 
 

@2:18, singing a lot of G4s and G#4s in this performance. As tense and gritty as it is, the way he sings those shows that he’s a tenor regardless. A baritone would have a field trip singing in that range with that kind of intensity. Basically, Chi Yeul is like a rougher, messier K-Will.

Han Dong Geun is a tenor yep. Woorim is arguably a tenor too, but he kinda overdoes his whole ‘baritone’ role thing so I haven’t even heard him sing above Eb4s (or even talk without that low larynx) but I’d say he’s a tenor too. There can be tenors with strong lows, especially the ones who are more into classical.  
 

I still think Chanyeol is a baritone but yeah that’s it. There might be some others in K-pop groups but I doubt they sing much. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by ZRH23

[fire_dagwon]

2 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Uhh, I haven’t really been searching out for baritones per se, but the most certain one would definitely be John Park. Which is a shame, cuz he’s not that impressive vocally lmao, so turns out there’s no belter baritones. 

First of all thanks for the quick reply!

Yeah John Park is indisputably a baritone, but I thought he was considered at least Proficient? Did he regress or something?

If Hwanhee is still considered a baritone he would probably be the best contemporary baritone today, at least by belting standards. It's either him or Scott Hoying but I honestly don't think Scott Hoying is a baritone either lol.

2 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Hwang Chi Yeul ,on the other hand, is weightier and often adds some artificial darkness/muddy quality to his voice (a lot of tongue issues follow). But the way he sings in the 4th octave is still very tenor. 
 

@2:18, singing a lot of G4s and G#4s in this performance. As tense and gritty as it is, the way he sings those shows that he’s a tenor regardless. A baritone would have a field trip singing in that range with that kind of intensity. Basically, Chi Yeul is like a rougher, messier K-Will.

Wow it's honestly surprising to hear that both of them but especially Hwang Chi Yeul are tenors! I thought for sure that Hwang Chi Yeul at least would be a true baritone. But yes I do agree with you, his voice is incredibly gritty and throaty, and at times I really can't tell if it's supposed to be stylistic or unintentional. I thought his technique was decent, but hearing you say he's a rougher, messier K-Will when K-Will already has plenty of technique problems of his own is very worrying lol ...  do you know his supported range? He supports up to F#4/G4 right?

Also, would a baritone really have trouble belting up to G4/G#4 with intensity like you said? I thought that A4 was around the maximum a baritone could belt with intensity before completely fizzling out, so it would be very high for them yes but not unreachable right? 

Actually Hwang Chi Yeul actually does belt a Bb4 here at 2:28 and while it's incredibly strained it does somewhat sound "intense" so I guess that's more proof he's a tenor lol.

Also quick side note but Kim Chang Yeon, the tenor Hwang Chi Yeul is singing with, also sounds very good. I've never heard of him before but his Bb4's sound supported and resonant, at least to my untrained ears lol. I don't know about that B4 at 4:19, but everything lower than that sounds very nice.

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Han Dong Geun is a tenor yep.

I knew it. Do you know his supported range?

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Woorim is arguably a tenor too, but he kinda overdoes his whole ‘baritone’ role thing so I haven’t even heard him sing above Eb4s (or even talk without that low larynx) but I’d say he’s a tenor too. There can be tenors with strong lows, especially the ones who are more into classical.  

He's a tenor? I don't know about that tbh. While yes he does sound very light here, his lows are way too developed, weighty, and full to be a tenor methinks. Ha Hyun Woo is a tenor with phenomenal lows as well, but you can hear how even that is relatively light and breathy compared to the natural weight of a baritone.

Although I do think Ko Woo Rim is also lowering his larynx quite a lot to achieve that sort of sound, but again I'm untrained so I can't detect that kind of stuff easily lol.

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I still think Chanyeol is a baritone but yeah that’s it. There might be some others in K-pop groups but I doubt they sing much. 

Do people still think BTS' rap line are baritones? There's also two solo artists named Jung Joon Il and Jung Joon Young, but Jung Joon Il is most definitely a tenor and Jung Joon Young might be a true baritone but he's no longer active in the music industry anymore cuz he was involved in the biggest k-pop scandal of all time lmao.

[Tsabar]

4 hours ago, fire_dagwon said:

Ko Woo Rim is definitely more debatable

More debatable as in you think he is a tenor ?? He is a lot safer than some other names you wrote there.

Edit: I see that some ppl think differently but I remember he was agreed as a baritone not long ago here in the thread.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Tsabar

[fire_dagwon]

1 minute ago, Tsabar said:

More debatable as in you think he is a tenor ?? He is a lot safer than some other names you wrote there.

No no more debatable as in he's more likely to be a baritone than tenor.

Although I'm like 99% sure he's not a bass which is his official position in Forestella.

[Tsabar]

1 minute ago, fire_dagwon said:

No no more debatable as in he's more likely to be a baritone than tenor.

Although I'm like 99% sure he's not a bass which is his official position in Forestella.

Yeah definitely not a bass

[Tsabar]

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I haven’t even heard him sing above Eb4s

1:36 E4

https://youtu.be/qOmgbIADt4E

1:26 F4

 

[redhoodedgirll]

Wow can't wait for this

 

 

 

[ZRH23]

13 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

Yeah John Park is indisputably a baritone, but I thought he was considered at least Proficient? Did he regress or something?

If Hwanhee is still considered a baritone he would probably be the best contemporary baritone today, at least by belting standards. It's either him or Scott Hoying but I honestly don't think Scott Hoying is a baritone either lol.

John Park didn’t regress, he’s just not as impressive as we initially thought . Not sure bout his ranking just yet, I just listen to him generally and he barely puts in effort in his mixed. Like, very barely. I don’t remember the last time he even tried to ‘belt’ something out, he mostly just goes for some lazy phrases around D4s - E4s, which isn’t exactly Proficient worthy when you’ve got tenors like Hongki or Junsu resonating consistently lol. He does have well rounded registers, but overall, he just doesn’t seem to have the capacity in his mixed range. It’s can be quite raw and unrefined too. 
 

Yeah, Hwanhee isn’t a baritone. He’s just a heavier tenor who sings darker and sort of neglects anything beyond G#4. I think Scott Hoying is indeed a baritone. He was never on the same level as belts as Hwanhee (it’s not like he regularly sustained G#4s lol) and plus, he’s much brighter in coordination, which makes sense and is still comfortably within the expected sound for a baritone. 

John Legend is also a chestier baritone who’s alright in his mixed, though he has some stylistic tendencies according to his genre. He mixes around and above G4 range often, but the sound is definitely different. 

 

20 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

Wow it's honestly surprising to hear that both of them but especially Hwang Chi Yeul are tenors! I thought for sure that Hwang Chi Yeul at least would be a true baritone. But yes I do agree with you, his voice is incredibly gritty and throaty, and at times I really can't tell if it's supposed to be stylistic or unintentional. I thought his technique was decent, but hearing you say he's a rougher, messier K-Will when K-Will already has plenty of technique problems of his own is very worrying lol ...  do you know his supported range? He supports up to F#4/G4 right?

Also, would a baritone really have trouble belting up to G4/G#4 with intensity like you said? I thought that A4 was around the maximum a baritone could belt with intensity before completely fizzling out, so it would be very high for them yes but not unreachable right? 

Actually Hwang Chi Yeul actually does belt a Bb4 here at 2:28 and while it's incredibly strained it does somewhat sound "intense" so I guess that's more proof he's a tenor lol.

Also quick side note but Kim Chang Yeon, the tenor Hwang Chi Yeul is singing with, also sounds very good. I've never heard of him before but his Bb4's sound supported and resonant, at least to my untrained ears lol. I don't know about that B4 at 4:19, but everything lower than that sounds very nice.

I’m not too sure of the extent of Chi Yeul’s support, he might’ve shown some better moments above that perhaps. 
 

Baritones belting around G4/G#4 would be quite a different sound compared to tenors. The easiest way for me to explain it is by just imagining tenors struggling on C5s. They’ll have to adjust their vowels, more often than not, and their vocal tract also has to shaped to be more narrow. It’ll result in a more thinned out, pinched sound that obviously would take up a lot of effort and big adjustments to how they approach the notes. Think of the usual K-pop tenor navigating through a passage in the 5th octave. At best, maybe the advanced ones like Park Hyo Shin can manage the passages at C5 with more fullness but there’s still gonna be a degree of compression because of how much you have to adjust your tract. It’s possibly for tenors to land a more ‘free’ sound on C5s, but usually it’s a pushed, bright open vowel climax note kinda thing. You don’t hear them approaching back-to-back C5s with full on belting. 
 

That’s what baritones would most likely have to do when singing G4/G#4s lol. It’s possible of course, but not with the kind of intensity/approach that Chi Yeul did. He was just passing through the G4s just fine, except for his own issues, but he didn’t struggle with having to compress it or adjust his tract. Baritones don’t fizz out on or after A4 specifically, but it’s a very high note to be ‘belting’ on. I haven’t really heard a tenor ‘belting’ on C#5s without some obvious brightness and compression. 
 

About Changyeon, unfortunately no, he’s not really resonating anywhere in the performance. He’s just quite bright. @3:46, that’s thin and pushed, but it’s bright so it doesn’t sound too ugly. @3:52, again, thin and kinda more in the throat imo, even the G4 after isn’t that strong tbh. The G4 carries support, I meant that he doesn’t have the coordination to make it ‘resonant’ and it’s nothing much. @4:19, bright and high larynx. He’s an AA as far as I’ve heard. 
 

41 minutes ago, fire_dagwon said:

I knew it. Do you know his supported range?

He's a tenor? I don't know about that tbh. While yes he does sound very light here, his lows are way too developed, weighty, and full to be a tenor methinks. Ha Hyun Woo is a tenor with phenomenal lows as well, but you can hear how even that is relatively light and breathy compared to the natural weight of a baritone.

Although I do think Ko Woo Rim is also lowering his larynx quite a lot to achieve that sort of sound, but again I'm untrained so I can't detect that kind of stuff easily lol.

Han Dong Geun also has some quirks that’s got to do with his larynx position (most prominently) but I think it mostly translates to messy tongue lol. He gets rather pushy, but I’ve heard some quite nice belts up to G#4s, with some nice vowels and passable resonance imo. His A4s get a bit too pushed for me though. There could be some better moments. He’s got a nice lower range too, at least around C3, and most probably carries it down in 2nd octave too. 
 

Low notes are one of the aspects to listen to when identifying tenor or baritones, sure, but we gotta take into account on how Woorim sings. It’s not a really solid comparison between him and other pop tenors. Woorim is straight up ‘classical’ and he’s singing with a lowered larynx 90% of the time. This isn’t necessarily bad (though it’s not exactly proper by opera standards) but it does change the sound of his lows. There are some operatic tenors who can sound strong down to F2-Eb2 areas still. And personally, I do hear some tenor quality even in the low notes. 

Like in that first video, I’d expect a baritone of that coordination to be way fuller, and passing through that passage with less intensity spikes. Even with just normal pop larynx, I can phrase around A2/G#2 in just speaking sort of tone and effort, without the added ‘dips’ into the notes like what he’s doing. And he’s at his limit around F2/E2 (almost fry), which is low even for baritones, but I think if a baritone with that coordination were to sing it, it would’ve been way more present and less muddy. 

1 hour ago, fire_dagwon said:

Do people still think BTS' rap line are baritones? There's also two solo artists named Jung Joon Il and Jung Joon Young, but Jung Joon Il is most definitely a tenor and Jung Joon Young might be a true baritone but he's no longer active in the music industry anymore cuz he was involved in the biggest k-pop scandal of all time lmao.

I have no idea but the raps they do can be pretty high pitched, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were tenors. 
Yes, Jung Joon Il is a tenor.  The convict is also a tenor . 
 

1 hour ago, Tsabar said:

1:36 E4

https://youtu.be/qOmgbIADt4E

1:26 F4

 

The E4 is giving me tenor vibes ngl. He doesn’t have that much presence there, yknow like I would’ve thought a baritone with that kind of larynx position would’ve sounded heavier. But he was not as low-larynxed there, it was a bit brighter so I think it’s a bit clear for me to be more of a tenor. 
 

The F4 has much more of a consistently low larynx position but again, it doesn’t exactly scream baritone to me. But there’s room in that clip for doubt. 
 

@0:40, his speaking range is more like a tenor’s to me. It can be a bit lower here and there cuz he likes to talk in fry (or sometimes even straight up low larynx too) but there’s a lot of moments there where he mainly talks in E3 - G#3 range, even up to Bb3ish in certain phrasing. He goes around A2ish at the end of phrases but again, it’s more like fry.

@1:00, meanwhile Chanyeol is averaging around B2 - F2, E3ish at the top phrases here and there. 

It’s not necessarily foolproof, but considering Woorim goes into the low larynx, dark sound 90% of the time (even when he’s speaking ), it’s the most direct comparison we can get. Chanyeol’s speaking range is pretty low by comparison, it just doesn’t sound like it. 
 

@0.50, peaks at around F#3ish but he mostly just stays at G2 area. 
 

So yeah, I think he’s a tenor probably. But that’s just me (and C.Y pointed it out to me along with an example of an operatic tenor who can produce the kind of sound Woorim is making in the lower ends of second octave). 

[ZRH23]

1 hour ago, redhoodedgirll said:

Wow can't wait for this

 

 

 

Yuju singing This is Me when she’s struggling with the stuck C#5s and D5s all this while??? Oh Lord… With Lily and Ailee, she can’t bring her indie ass style in there . 
 

Lily might just sound the most acceptable there cuz Ailee with her whiny vowels may not be as suitable as Lily’s bright notes, at least on F5s and above. 
 

Also, 3 solo stuff for Lily? Wow. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by ZRH23

[Tsukimono]

3 hours ago, redhoodedgirll said:

Wow can't wait for this

 

 

Really interesting to see Lily cover TFTMN, curious to see if her C#5's are going to be better than Yuju's during that era... Her C#5's were inconsistent that time if I remember correctly right? 

[Guest]

I'm curious, besides Jaehwan, was there anyone else in Wanna One who was able to support? Even just shallowly?

Also, was Jaehwan the strongest male vocalist to come out of Produce 101? I know there's Wei's Seokhwa from PX101 who is Average, Junho and Seungwoo are W-A, Nu'est Baekho is an Average....was there anyone else on those seasons who was any good?

Thank you!

Edited September 18, 2022 by nana_moon

[ZRH23]

24 minutes ago, nana_moon said:

I'm curious, besides Jaehwan, was there anyone else in Wanna One who was able to support? Even just shallowly?

Also, was Jaehwan the strongest male vocalist to come out of Produce 101? I know there's Wei's Seokhwa from PX101 who is Average, Junho and Seungwoo are W-A, Nu'est Baekho is an Average....was there anyone else on those seasons who was any good?

Thank you!

Yeah. I did come across their KOMS performances and some clips recently. Sungwoon and Seungwoo both sound like they're Average. Minhyun also sounds alright in his KOMS performance, though it was a bit more limited in range but sounds like he can support, might be an Average too. Possibly. I haven't the rest of them though so.

The strongest male vocal to appear in PD101? I think Hweseung appeared on there first, right? He'd be the strongest (Mid AAish at least) if I'm not missing anyone else. Kinda doubt it, would've noticed if anyone there could produce resonance lol. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah. I did come across their KOMS performances and some clips recently. Sungwoon and Seungwoo both sound like they're Average. Minhyun also sounds alright in his KOMS performance, though it was a bit more limited in range but sounds like he can support, might be an Average too. Possibly. I haven't the rest of them though so.

The strongest male vocal to appear in PD101? I think Hweseung appeared on there first, right? He'd be the strongest (Mid AAish at least) if I'm not missing anyone else. Kinda doubt it, would've noticed if anyone there could produce resonance lol. 

Seungwoo, Sungwoon and Minhyun are all Averages?? wait, really?? i was always under the impression that were all like W-A at best, or worse. especially since this video from Himi on the thread says Junho is W-A, and the strongest in X1?

so is Seungwoo actually stronger than him?

oops you're right Hweseung was on Season 2, I completely forgot about that. what about Woodam from that PD101?