Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[AhMin]

 

WIG SNATCHED. How was Ariana in this?? 1:00-1:48 is the best part. Is Seth Macfarlane a good vocalist?   

 

^

Ariana struggled a lot with the runs/high belts, her jaw tension is high off the charts lol I heard support at the begginning but then, all the flaws she has started to kick in (jaw tension, wrong head position, pushing) and she lost support, as usual

 

It's not bad per se, but it's not "good" either I guess

 

I don't know about the guy but he was pretty comfortable with his voice, sounds very Broadway-esque which I guess is a good thing. But he's not a good vocalist, he was singing with a low placed larynx throughout all the video.

 

(it's not serious lol if you want a real analysis, you better wait for Ahmin)

I kind of get baffled a bit but then I remember we're in a kpop forum LOL. I go other places and they really dislike the bright or light voices that are admired here. As for myself, I used to like light sounds when I was younger but as I got older, I liked the fuller sounds. I hear light sounds waaaay too much in contemporary these days...they're like everywhere, it gets stale for me personally.

 

I'm sorry but what you are saying about Seth Macfarlane is very incorrect. I wouldn't say he was particularly good in this video, he did poorly on the G4. But he certainly has skills and has sang better than this video overall, though he has his own inconsistencies and bad habits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with singing with a low larynx, first of all, and he was not singing with a low larynx anyway. His larynx is at most, slightly lowered. A tinge lowered. If you've watched Family Guy before, he sings as Brian as a lot with just a slightly lowered larynx and he can certainly sing; great chest voice, solid upper voice, dynamic control, etc. He's a baritone as well, his voice has a natural roundness to it, don't mistake that for the larynx being too low. I know you said it's not a serious analysis so it's okay, but I'm just gonna say that this sort of exaggeration of what male singers are doing in larynx position compared to the complete understating of what some pop female singers are doing in terms of larynx position is much too frequent.

I agree about Seth. He didn't do particularly well in this video, which was odd. He was placing the sound more towards the back of his throat at times which is really uncommon cause not only is he good at general placement and support, he is great at manipulating his voice to voice different characters and maintain their singing voices as well. He is really capable at singing, but in this particular video he didn't very well but I think it's cause he was trying to kind of emulate the way the original singer of this song sings for the laughs? Cause he did sound kind of weird when I was watching it earlier. As for Ariana, she was doing what she usually do. Jaw, throat, inconsistent placement, bright shouting, yknow.

 

 

what in the world is her voice type?! 

 

could she... could she be just a really light contralto? i know its rare, but her voice sounds kinda different from a regular mezzo or full lyric lol

 

 

She doesn't have an androgynous voice at all though, it's not even a heavy voice. Imma be real honest and say she sounds like a soprano who sings light, a bit husky and that's it. I mean you've heard real contraltos, right? I mean listen to this.

 

 

 

I could be wrong and she could be a mezzo, but I really would put my money on soprano in a heartbeat. She is literally phrasing D5's and F5's, she isn't even singing low. 

 

Why is taeyeon so high in this rank ?

https://kpopvocalanalysis.net/ranking-of-vocalists/

isn't she overrated ? her volume is low and she cracks a lot, how can she be higher than hyorin or eunji or any mamamoo member ?

 

there are analyses on all these people so maybe read them and you will understand why, from the writers' perspectives, Taeyeon is ranked that highly and above the people you mentioned  Apologies if you have read them and are still uncertain why she is ranked that way, but it feels like you have not read them.

 

Loud also does not instantly mean good. Tiffany is loud and as you can see she is quite low on the chart.

 

also about the cracking:

 

Continuing on from what Kevin said, I would like to emphasize that you should read all their analyses when questioning their ratings, try to understand them and explain exactly why you feel she is rated too high. Also after watching the video that was posted about cracking, as that addresses that point because cracking does not mean she has improper vocal technique. Everyone cracks, it's natural.

[AhMin]

 

WIG SNATCHED. How was Ariana in this?? 1:00-1:48 is the best part. Is Seth Macfarlane a good vocalist?   

 

What do you mean? She killed those runs and her voice sounded amazing? I didn't sense any struggles with her high belts either like this sounded completely effortless. 

Sounded amazing? Could you explain to me what that means? Cause sounding amazing or pleasing to you does not mean it's technically well done. You're free to think it is pleasing to your ears though but do try to understand what that means.

 

1:01 supported A4, but she is not pushing the sound into her mask enough and pulling some of sound from her throat by pushing her jaw forward and her neck as well. 1:03 That C#5 was in her throat, the vowel was squeezed and her throat narrow. 1:12 Shouty D5 E5 and F#5 line, pulling the sound from her throat again but placing it more brightly which helps mask away the tension. 1:14 Too much jaw movement, completely unnecessary and based on tension in order to control her runs. 1:19 again C#5 back of throat tension, pushing the sound out and sounding glottal and squeezed. 1:42 again 1:45 1:48 and those two, E5, D5 and E5, again all in the back of her throat with a relatively developed mixed voice. 2:12 again that E5 too. She just knows how to mix, but she is shouty with a light mix which masks away the tension that is usually more obvious with vocalists who sing heavily in the throat with chestiness. They push the sound from the throat and often go flat, like Christina Aguilera, but they aren't bright mixing sopranos like Ariana which is why she can mask it away with brightness. 

 

 

 

She isn't very different from it either, Sungyeon is even brighter and she is just as shouty but she places the sound more towards her mask so it again hides the strain more than Ariana even, but both are still straining in the fifth octave even if you may not see it. So don't be fooled by brightness.

[AhMin]

 

Reviewing material on the nonexistence of whistle and vocal fry registers

Lately I'm interested in the specifics of two different singing styles I want to ask about but first I'll make a couple posts sharing links for how I reached my current understanding of registers. It'd be handy having the info compiled for future reference.

 

It's commonly acknowledged there are only two physiological registers: lower (modal) and upper (falsetto). Everything else is perceptual, based on resonance [note: literal definition]. This includes voix mixte and "disconnected falsetto" and flageolet and whatever else people come up with to describe sounds. That's why smart folks in the classical world use phrases like

It gets complicated so I'm just starting with the easy ones. This might allay some fear of making these sounds; there's nothing especially dangerous happening!

 

Whistle is simple. This is the myth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_register

 

You might have heard it instead called constriction. Well, it turns out someone managed to film it and here's how they describe it.

http://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4773200

Next up, vocal fry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4167751/

 

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/voluntary.html

 

Here's a crazy deep voice to put that to the test.

But it's really the time while your vocal folds are closed that you're perceiving. You can hear the 'fry' at higher pitches if you use more pressed speech. That's something I was experimenting with and noticed the popping gets more noticeable the harder you press. Mainly at the end, roughly 63 hertz.

https://vocaroo.com/i/s0dErL4KPLtY

You can also make the sound using weak lung pressure that takes longer to build up enough to separate your vocal folds. They'll still vibrate at the pitch they're stretched to, except apparently less continuously. Think of tremolo picking a guitar string while palm muting.

 

This is very interesting. So the vocal fry is kind of a rubbing and pressure that's overly added where the vocal cords create more obvious intervals of puffs, so we can perceive the sound as more gravely due to those puffs being slower and more spread out. That doesn't just happen with very low notes, but also with higher chest voice notes if the vocalist doesn't relax into a smoother stretch. As for the whistle, this may indicate that the whistle register, if done correctly, could theoretically be supported.

[AhMin]

Closed quotients! Attempting to understand how mixed voice & breathy falsetto works not as a register, plus strain/support

After gradually formatting everything to be coherent, part 2. This is going to be looong and dryly scientific but if you can make it through this post it will give you a new understanding of the voice. Quick recap, there are two vocal registers: lower (modal) and upper (falsetto). These overlap one octave but the boundary between them is absolute, there is no mixed register or blending. Here's a good study as my citation for this. They use M1 for modal and M2 for falsetto.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4f1d/b5ba82e2f44c62b4f36630b90c15cbd25366.pdf

"In the zone covering the frequencies most used in speech and song by both genders, an ascending glissando presents one unique break separating the M1 and M2 mechanisms. This break appears in the acoustic signal and in the EGG signal. It is characterized by an upward frequency jump, a reduction of the amplitude of the EGG signal, and a modification of its shape. The reduction in amplitude of the EGG signal may come from a reduction of the contact surface area between the vocal folds, which could be related to a reduction in the thickness of the fold. [...]

This phenomenon does not depend on the gender of the subjects nor on their level of vocal training. Its perception by a listener, however, may depend on the level of vocal training.

[...] the overlap zone of the mechanisms is considerable (one octave on average). It occurs at the same frequencies for both genders, which means that in this zone of the vocal range, female and male voices have the same possibilities of choice of production mechanism."

 

In case you read the whole thing, it mentions pulse and whistle which is why I posted other research first that explains the phenomena.

Graphics to visualize what this stuff looks like. Sometimes called the 'mucosal wave'.

Descriptions of the two perceived registers. Pay attention to the last sentence in each paragraph about how long the folds are open versus closed. That's the closed quotient.

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/voluntary.html

Side note, "the TA is more active" doesn't mean it's more active than the CT in chest voice. It isn't. In fact, belting requires more CT than classical head voice, which requires more TA than low notes. This idea about thyroarytenoid-dominant production (pages 13-14) came from Scott McCoy, a musician. Also, the muscles that control adduction are the lateral cricoarytenoid and the oblique/transverse interarytenoids. TA/CT is only for vocal registration. All these muscles have excessive strength already so there's no urgent need to develop them, it's mostly about fine motor skill.

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/involuntary.html

That's basically describing bridging the passaggio. There's been a little research into mixed voice but before we get into the ultra-complicated stuff let's go over closed quotients (CQ) first. LINK

"One of the most important consequences of different types of glottal settings is the way in which the open and closed phase of the vibratory cycle is affected. The 'closed quotient' is the percentage of time during each cycle of vibration that the glottis is closed, and the 'open quotient' is the percentage of time the glottis is open. The abruptness and length of closure in each vibratory cycle affects not only the quality of the voice at the voice source, but also the airflow rate, subglottal pressure, and intensity (sound pressure levels, or SPL)."

 

My man Titze-sensei has a detailed description as well of course but I'm only going to point out one part.

http://www.ncvs.org/ncvs/tutorials/voiceprod/tutorial/graphing.html

"The shape of the glottal waveform helps to determine the loudness of the sound generated, and also its timbre. A 'jagged' waveform (with a large skewing quotient or small open quotient) which represents sudden changes in airflow will produce more high frequencies, and result in a 'brassy' timbre. A smoother curve, representative of gradual changes in airflow (open quotient and skewing quotient both high) will tend to produce a more 'fluty' sound."

 

'Brassy' and 'fluty' would be twangy and airy. The way you control this is the most complicated part so I'll come back to this after giving some examples of typical CQ percentages. First, from the study linked at the very top... (I altered the wording for consistency)

"Thus, the closed quotient has values varying between 70% and 20% in the modal mechanism, whereas they are always less than 50% in the falsetto mechanism. At a same pitch, the closed quotient will have greater values in the modal mechanism than in the falsetto mechanism, as illustrated in Figure 14. There exists an overlap zone between mechanisms where the closed quotient can take on similar values, depending on the vocal intensity and the fundamental frequency of the sound produced."

 

From a couple pages up in that Google books link...

"It is interesting that in a study carried out by Ronald Scherer and Ingo Titze, a trained baritone was measured using 'breathy,' 'normal,' and 'pressed' phonation in both singing and speaking. It was discovered that the baritone pressed the vocal processes of the arytenoid cartilages firmly together during all the singing tasks. This was supported by evidence that the vocal folds had a large 'closed phase' during each vibration"

 

https://www.nats.org/_Library/Kennedy_JOS_Files_2013/JOS-063-5-2007-545.pdf

"heavy mechanism (a.k.a. chest voice) is produced with a CQ generally in excess of 50%; light mechanism (a.k.a. head voice and falsetto) is produced with a CQ below 40% (the zone between 40 and 50% can be ambiguous and might be either a heavy or light source)."

 

To summarize, very throaty timbres and fry could be 71+% CQ, belting up to 70%, speech around 60%, shallow breathy speech maybe 40-50%, all falsetto register including head voice 49% at most, and what we perceive as "airy falsetto" is below 30%. It's not necessary to have a gap in the closure to create breathy timbres. I think there's a useful term, murmured phonation or whispery voice, to differentiate that.

 

So you could bridge your registers by adjusting the CQ until the flip into your other register isn't as abrupt. Now onto the hella complicated part. I'm just going to link very technical studies about nonlinear source-filter coupling (describing how the vocal tract shape effects the vibration of the vocal folds) and another examining MRIs of people doing mixed voice. Read if you wish.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811547/

https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/312668

tl;dr you go for a jaggy glottal cycle by modifying towards a slight twangy sound using your mouth/throat/nose.

 

OK, all this theoretical stuff is nifty, but how do we learn to recognize the register flip? It should be detectable because earlier we read the overtones are stronger in modal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsettone

That description sounds like twangy falsetto to me. Let's look this dude up and see what he sounds like. (@ 3:13-3:31)

 

I know, pop music, please! Here was something that caused a little confusion in the past.

 

Do you notice a change @ 1:22? I believe that's when he flips. Mostly everything from that point is falsetto register. Whether you perceive it as mixed or head voice is a subjective experience of resonance, and he is fairly twangy. I have a bunch of examples collected I want to share and talk about registration in pop music. If you read this far, thank you, I'll be counting on you for responses. 

 

Bonus female vid

 

Listen to 1:20-1:22, 1:28-1:34, 2:19-2:25

 

What did you think? I believe the first was all modal, belted, while the other two are register flips. The first two moments are both C#5-D#5 so you can compare spectrals.

 

As a final note, if you didn't know this stuff, don't mind it. There's so much confusing and conflicting systems out there. I don't know everything and there's probably some silly stuff I believe in too. Here's a final quote from Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_register

Falsettone to me seems to be what we call a mask placed head voice and in the classical singer example, I agree that it is a mask placed head voice. I disagree though that that's what Chen was doing, because I wouldn't say he flipped. I would say he started relying on lighter muscles to keep mixing, but that's not the sound of a mask placed head voice and I think you're confusing it.

 

 

@2:30 THIS is a mask placed head voice or "falssetone" because males in classical logic don't have a head voice, but what Chen was doing is mixed. I disagree that it is perceived by resonance as it is to do with muscle stretch and vocal cord connection as well. 

 

Even listening to Lee Haeri, I think you are mistaking a change of stretch for a change of registers, yes it is true that transitioning should be made seamless but just because there is a difference in quality, that might be for other reasons. A thinning out of the mixed register does not automatically indicate a switch into the head register. Also in Haeri's case, her vowels were closing up her throat so she sounded thinner but she was mixing in both occasions and that's what you are perceiving incorrectly as a flip in register when it isn't. I know this because I know how it feels and how it sounds and when it happens, I know when I'm still mixing even ever so lightly and when I've flipped into head voice and place it in my mask. I know the difference can be hard to tell, but don't group them together as if they're always the same thing.

 

what do you think of this?

 

https://twitter.com/taemintomax/status/901407610439483392

 

Is he good, is he meh, is he bad

Quite a few resonant G#4's, some Aye vowel tension, some closed higher up notes. Pretty nice, some tension on the G#4's, pushing mostly.

 

 

What? One Way Love was 2013, that Bang Bang performance was in the end of 2014, she was literally resonant during the entire performance, she outsing Ailee during that performance lol.

That F#5 some think was resonance some didn't. Ahmin was dragged by Hyorin fans abt this performance for his biased review lol. But it is a fact Hyorin was resonance during the entire performance.

He ain't biased on EVERYTHING but he sure embarrassed himself back then lmao it was hilarious.

That note ain't bad and probably better than Eunji's. So yeah, Hyorin Bang Bang is better than Eunji version. Plus imo Bang Bang don't suit her voice. It sounded awkward.

Not for the F#5, we never agreed that the F#5 was resonant in Bang Bang which is why I didn't use that F#5 in her live vocal range video. I used the Show Me How You Burlesque ones. "Ahmin was dragged by Hyorin fans for his biased review" So Ahmin, again, the one who listens to more than 30 performances for each vocalist he analyzes is biased, and the Hyorin FANS who don't have a good ear for vocal technique and only care about her vocals and don't listen to anybody else with that much attention are not biased? lol Okay. 

 

I don't need to prove that I'm not biased, your sentence is a contradiction in itself. Wow after all the questions I've answered and the patience I've had with everybody including you, it's nice to see you don't respect me at all. I am too grown for all this drama, that was ridiculous back then and it's still ridiculous now. It's petty and childish and I'm done with it, but you seem to still hang on.

 

I'm pretty sure the F#5s didn't have resonance, they were maybe kind of supported but she growled a bit and they were a bit tight too. Ah I didn't knew Ahmin was biased, but I still doubt the F#5s are resonant.

Really? Someone tells you I'm biased and just like that you believe them?

 

 

He didn't embarassed himself but whatever, this is old as hell

 

And for the Bang Bang comparaison, Hyorin was vocally miles ahead from Eunji so that's understandable, I mean Hyorin was even a lil' better than Ailee in this performance. I love Eunji voice in general, so I disagree with the awkwardness but the growl did sound a bit excessive and out of place.

 

Eunji seems to love growling when singing foreign songs...

Now I'm not sure what you think lol I'm confused.

Edited August 26, 2017 by AhMin

[AhMin]

I didn't believe him lol I just didn't care so I kind of ignored what he said

Thought so. Haha

[AhMin]

Cool, I was hoping someone would test my assumptions since I'm learning in isolation over here. Not to derail, but if you'd let me make one point before addressing the main subject... From the Bel Canto book linked in the last post, I found these few paragraphs eye-opening in many ways.

 

Particularly about Caruso on the 2nd & 3rd page.

 

 

What, the influential legendary tenor Enrico Caruso believed a bunch of verifiably false things based on misleading sensations and refused to accept it? Well, at least he didn't mention supporting from the diaphragm, an involuntary smooth muscle--

http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Tetrazzini/Art_Singing.htm

Dude, nooo! Even the best of us don't always understand what's going on. Nor do you need to. Caruso was a particularly stubborn guy and he paid dearly for it, sadly.

 

Back to the topic. The thing that makes it hard to communicate in the singing community is people are mostly relying on subjective terminology literally from the dark ages. It might have been a force of habit, but since you mentioned "mixed register" I'll reiterate such a thing empirically doesn't exist. Closed quotients are directly tied to how we perceive registration, so "thinning out" isn't a vibration pattern or a laryngeal mechanism but has to do with airflow. You're physiologically either 100% in modal or 100% in falsetto. Since you didn't state which it was and instead rephrased it in your own personal terms I can't refute anything.

 

Good example btw. Do you really think it sounds significantly different from Chen's G5? Weirdly enough, I enjoy kballads and even own Haeri's album so this isn't implicit criticism. Seth Riggs' style dominates this genre. Rather, I'm trying to learn more precisely how to approach making certain sounds. If you, or anyone reading, wants clarification about terms, just ask. My Google-fu is strong.

So term wise, you consider modal to be what we perceive as chest voice and mixed voice, whereas falsetto is what we perceive as head voice and falsetto? Then my answer remains. I do think it sounds considerably different but wait, you didn't say G5, you said starting from 1:22 which was when he went above B4 and started singing C5's and above. I still would stand by the fact that he didn't flip register and even if he was singing lighter as he went higher, there was no register flip. As there was for Daehyun. Huh? I wasn't saying that you were criticizing Haeri, I just disagree that there was a flip of register there. 

 

I would still highly appreciate if you could guide me to your intro post, because I don't know how to look it up and I am still interested in understanding more about you. 

 

 

I honestly remember searching about Hyorin in this forum and I ended founding a couple of LONG, LONG paragraphs relating to that Bang Bang performance. I didnt read it all, it was pretty harsh and I'm not used to seeing Ahmin mad so I was just overwhelmed with all his raging sassiness coming through :').

 

That being said, I remember him providing quite a few examples of pretty good F#5s and some not so good F#5s for us to compare to. So I dont know where you got the 'he embarrassed himself' part. It was just the usual case of fans' heads being stuck up in space and not returning to reality. They didn't listen but Ahmin tried.

I tend to be as patient as possible and don't get mad easily, even then I wouldn't be hurtful unless I'm out. Thank you for looking it up and coming up with your conclusions instead of..listening to said user.

 

 

The embracing part wasnt abt the F#5, was him not accepting any Ailee "slander". It was hilarious.

It's funny how you're still not addressing me even though I've addressed you. I've always been one to criticize Ailee, this whole Hyorin fan obsession with "Ahmin hates Hyorin because his fave is Ailee" is the biggest bs brought out of petty. It's easier to make one look less credible by claiming they're a fan of another idol and are unable to handle criticism about them. I literally always point out Ailee's flaws, always have and always will. People just don't read.

 

 

dragged and embarrassed? By whom? The people that said Tiffany had a resonant D5 and was as good as jessica and seohyun? The people that said Leo had a resonant C5 and Suho a resonant Bb4/B4? The people that claim IU has like C5/C#5? The only tea here is that you are a pressed Hyorin stan

LOL

[AhMin]

Sure Jan.

That's a very mature response. It's nice to see that after all the questions I've answered for you and the patience and time I spent, that THAT'S how you see me. Thank you for showing who you truly are.

[AhMin]

This has nothing to do with this FYI. ^

 

Everybody knows me and everybody knows how I tend to write a lot. Well, I'll try to keep this short. I've grown a lot with this thread and was able to direct my passion of music and find out what I really want to do thanks to this. Although that much is true, it hasn't been easy here, especially with a lot of petty immature drama. I'm much too grown for this, and I'm done with it. I've learned a lot mostly about myself. About patience and trusting my own ears. I encourage you all to do the same and continue to grow. But it's time I've moved on. I'm barely on here anymore and I'm honestly too busy to respond to things here. I'm leaving this here so that people know that both K and I are not coming back and if they wish to reach us or me, they can find my YouTube, Facebook, twitter or the blog in order to do so. I won't be gone from this forum, I'll still use it to promote analyses/videos and I shall post new stuff on this thread but that's it. As I will no longer be frequenting this thread, please don't expect that I will be able to answer questions anymore. If you want to reach me, you know where to find me. I'm proud of myself for being short. lol So call me, beep me, if you wanna reach me. lol Stay safe, healthy and keep learning, and I'll do the same. Goodbye and thank you.

Edited August 27, 2017 by AhMin

[AhMin]

so you and K are leaving because of "petty immature drama". This is probably directed at multiple people and it's pretty safe to say I'm one of them, but sometimes I wonder if you even know the full picture of what K did specifically and why I have an issue with it (which you obviously know started the whole tension between me and all you guys on the blog)because he likely left all the worse parts out to you, seeing as how it would make him look more wrong. There's a bit too much blame being thrown around and not enough owning up to personal mistakes.

*sigh* I didn't want to have to come back to respond to anything but you're making this hard... I'll say 2 things: 1. K didn't leave because of "petty drama," he left because he has to focus on other things and this isn't a place he wants to be in anymore. 2. Petty immature drama was me referencing the years of hardship I felt I went through from 2012 ~ 2014, it had nothing to do with you so you can stop trying to make it seem like I'm always trying to indirectly attack you, when really, if I were, you would know. It wouldn't be indirect. Petty drama has nothing to do with you, at all. If it did, I wouldn't even talk to you at all. Please don't make me come back again.

[AhMin]

Okay so I just wanted to ask you lot since some of you have been here a long time (years maybe) and I wanted to ask about Hyorin.

 

I know that Hyorin was a Good vocalist but before I'll go on, can you guys please explain why she was considered a Good vocalist?

 

sent from your mom.

Zeke, dear. I'm going to have to let out frustrations on you because this makes no sense. Someone on the blog came to tell me about you asking why Hyorin was considered good before, and I thought it was someone new but it turned out to be you. What I don't understand is WHY you're asking about something literally blog related in here. This is literally related to the ratings we gave her in 2014 and something that only us in the blog can answer best, and yet you came here to ask? I told the commenter to tell whoever it was to just ask on the blog.

 

Now I know it wasn't your intention but I shouldn't have to come back here to clean up a mess started by asking a question that could've easily been answered by me on the blog. Yet and still you created more issues, had to have someone comment there to tell me something was going on here and it could all have been avoided if you asked people who know the answer, instead of people who aren't related to the blog at all. I'm truly puzzled as to why you thought this made sense. I apologize for not being my usual self but I'm just so tired.

 

Btw about Luna, she still has occasional issues with throatiness on D5 and Eb5, so everyone has inconsistencies and issues. You're not reading carefully and I could answer all your questions better than anybody because I wrote these analyses so please just go to the blog and ask me from now on.

 

But I think it's by the supported range that the blog rate each vocalist right?

 

Ahmin said she has one of the best lower register in kpop, if I'm not wrong it is still there on her analysis.

 

Countless of her TMB high note is resonant (E5), Hyorin didn't really go often up to F5/F#5, but she had some nice one during One Way Love + her OST Hello Goodbye. She even has resonant F#5.

Again, she has nice agility, what not everyone has, especially in kpop.

No supported range is not the ultimate thing. Also I've improved my hearing since 2014, so there are different kind of tensions I've come to notice that I didn't hear before. I still do think she was a good vocalist at one point and I do think she had resonant E5's and F5's.

 

About the lower range thing, she was one of my first analyses. After analyzing her I realized how there were so many more sopranos in Kpop who could support F#3 than what I was lead to believe. She's still one of the better ones though.

 

I believe because my hearing improved, I've also become harsher with ratings though.

2012- 2014, well it's 2017 so I guess I did not realize you were leaving right now because of the old members that have not even posted in this thread for years.

 

This may be one of the last times we will speak, and I may or may not be slowly moving away from this site as well so I should say this anyway. It does not matter at all whether you were even referring to me or not in that post, because what I'm saying is still 100% real. ALL THREE of you from the blog have called me "petty" on multiple occasions. The reason you never wanted to directly acknowledge any problem between me and your friends or confront me too hard is because there is no chance in hell you would win that conversation. You have always been a master at loopholes with words, even in vocal discussions you try to say things carefully in a way that doesn't land you in a shitty position. You guys have tried so hard to bury a big old lie with smaller new lies. There is no way we would be talking to each other with attitude just because of vocal disagreement all this time, who are you trying to fool here? That's probably why Haruko called me "garbage", I challenged her, and you guys thought I was gonna expose things so you backed off. That is also the only reason you stepped in when me and her were arguing, because you thought I was gonna expose things. Not because she called me "garbage", but because you thought I was gonna make you all look really bad, really fast. You couldn't care less that we were arguing and she said those things. You may have had hardship in 2012-2014, and you say those old members were bullies, but you're friends with quite the bully yourself and your other friend makes unethical decisions, not to mention illegal. You're complaining about another group of friends but your own group of friends are rather problematic as well. She even PM'd me right after asking me if I was talking about discussing K here because you guys were so worried, but I was not for the record, just wanted to debate her on some vocal stuff.

 

why don't you answer his question here, Matheus?

 

All I remember from those old members is that one time I backed you up in that The One discussion, when you were alone and against more than one person and because K straight up said he didn't want to get involved. So i helped you out there. But then after that whole K thing, you instantaneously turned your back on me anyway and you all started trying to pin the fault on me for some odd reason.

 

My biggest problem isn't even what he did, what he did was wrong but it's not exactly something to be surprised at on the internet. Nothing new, whatever. You say it has nothing to do with you, and it is 100% true that his mistakes are not yours; but my problem with you specifically is you blaming me for his mistakes, asking me why I decided to come back to this thread as if I don't have the right to be here because my presence is in the way of you or K or something. You think I'm blaming you for the mistakes of K and the attitude of Haruko, but my problem with you is actually that you blamed me for what he did, you defended that behavior and tried to make me seem like the one causing problems by PMing me when I came back and saying that I was being "immature" by trying to leave the whole thing behind. Then I was annoyed by that, and you guys tried to make it seem as if my attitude shown to you in this thread is something that came out of nowhere, like I'm just a dick and I overreact to you guys in here for...disagreement on vocals? No. And of course you guys have succeeded very well at that, you are much more liked here as the kpopvocalanalysis guy and you have half the regular posters in here eating out the palm of your hand right now, thinking I'm the bad guy who always starts shit with the blog members. I don't care if you were referring to me right there in that post or not, it doesn't change all that anyway. Maybe you do have a valid reason for blaming the old members? I wouldn't know, I didn't even know those guys. But after what happened with me and you guys, wow, you guys DEFINITELY like to blame others. I should be the one complaining about drama, one of your friends decides to do something completely unethical and manipulative in behavior and he gets defended (you both literally used the words "not his fault" and "not my fault" after that whole situation) and I get treated like the asshole, I get called garbage by another one of your besties, but in the end you want to tell me I'm overreacting? no, you don't have to come back if you don't want.

Ryan I can't believe you're still making me comeback. It annoys me a little cause in no moment did I say I was leaving because of petty drama. I said it wasn't always easy being in this thread because of drama but I'm leaving because I'm too busy to deal with this thread as a whole, that's it. You're making this into something it isn't.

 

Ryan you're a grown man, you want to expose something? Go ahead, I hope it brings you some kind of peace because imma be real, I don't feel like I changed how I talk to you, what I felt was that YOU changed how you talk to me and now you're turning this on me? Hey if you felt I was the one treating you differently, I do apologize cause instead I felt like you were constantly targeting me if anything. I disagree with a lot of Haruko did and have told her multiple times that she didn't need to be as bitchy as she was and you see she's not part of the blog anymore and for good reason, so I know what kind of friends I have/had. I do apologize on her behalf.

 

Again if you felt like I was blaming, I wasn't but he's my friend and he was still hurt so forgive me for trying to care for him. I don't think he was right, but I don't think you were right either. But it's done, it's over and although I do apologize, we all want this to be left behind. Honestly and I'm going to be completely honest here, I don't understand your behavior but I do understand your pain and you don't know if I defended you or not privately because I know how petty and bitchy Haruko can be if I call her out in public, so I tried to do it privately. But I do apologize for the stress she's caused you and for me not standing up for you when I should have, because what she did was pathetic and uncalled for, and I don't stand by it. The way she treated you was not fair, nor right, nor any better than how others treated me before and I'm really deeply sorry about it.

 

I still don't think it's fair that you treated K the way you did and you know very well what's happened to me but you're not me, so although I get that, I still don't think you should've cast him aside like that. But I'm not you, so I don't know why you can't accept it but it's done and that's the one thing I'm not okay with. But I didn't try to treat you differently but I felt you kept targeting me, correct me if I'm wrong. But I know you're not an asshole, you're not a bad person, you're not garbage and I'm sorry if that ever hurt you, how Haruko talked to you. I think we've had problems but never for one second did I think you were a bad person. So I do apologize for not standing up for you in that situation but understand that I felt that you've changed your behavior towards me too and there are still things I don't understand but like I said, I'm done with all of this. I wouldn't call it manipulative, but if that's what you see, I stand by it being a misunderstanding and I still don't understand personally how you don't get it, if I could get it, I just don't know why you couldn't and I apologize for not being able to understand. I think you both should still talk because I think there are still misunderstandings here.

 

This thread just brings memories that I don't want anymore, as a whole and I don't need this thread. It's just one more responsibility I can't handle right now, so that's why I'm leaving. You made it into something it wasn't, I've wanted to leave for years, trust me. I just didn't get around to it. That's it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by AhMin

[AhMin]

d'awwwwwwww lol

 

believe me I already knew, don't worry about it. I posted this a few months ago from another discussion

 

I always try to understand the other side as best as I can, even in an argument. So yeah we're cool, after the whole thing I tried to distance myself as well, and I did from kakao at least...I stopped coming here for a few months... but the sweet, sweet allure of vocal discussion...always whispers gently in my ear and calls me back I made that sound very weird but yknow what I mean.

take care =) u should stay tho there's gonna be a terrible backlog of Taeyeon questions

 

omg dude ur so cute how have you not pieced it together yet LOL ...there is no "Aly", it was just K the entire time.

 

Matheus WHY you are leaving does not matter to what I'm saying lol. I'm just saying if you and K are leaving and never coming back then I needed to clear the air on all this. Because I'm gonna be stuck here by myself, with some people still thinking I'm a douchebag for giving you both attitude for apparently no reason and I'm just done with that. I've been taking that this whole time while you were both here but if you guys are gone then no I am not gonna just take the brunt of all that for the rest of my time here. Of course some people are still gonna think i'm a diglet anyway LOL but as long as they know why I acted that way.

 

if you want to see it as a "misunderstanding" then okay, but anytime someone steals a picture of another person and claims it to be them (and not just any picture really, it was a personal one with two little nieces or cousins in it as well) then it is done with the intentions of being manipulative and deceptive for whatever reason. He did that to you too, and I heard he did it with some older members or at least one of them. I especially dislike that sort of dishonesty, I even told him that straight up and I can't believe I need to explain the severity of that...

 

if you consider it "unfair" that after I found out, I said whatever it's not suprising, then I listened to his real voice, told him he was a tenor (he said you were going back and forth on whether he was a baritone or tenor lol), gave him some operatic examples to listen to, but afterwards said that I need to distance myself from your whole gang, then ooooookay, you go ahead and say it's "unfair". Usually people who do those things get treated a lot worse, they get exposed immediately with no nice words or a right thing to do was to probably DM the girl on facebook and notify her that a "friend" is taking her picture and claiming it to be him, but if you think my reaction was "unfair" and "wrong" then ooooooooookay Matheus.

 

Believe me I gave you the same treatment I gave Haruko in my head, I think if I was in your position I might have forgiven him. I have a friend who I've known on the webz for 8 years or so, and if he came out one day and told me all those pictures I've seen of him were fake and that he was a girl, I'd be going "WTF" but I've known him for so long that I might just look past it. But there are things that I have a hard time looking past, like you guys trying to say it wasn't his fault and telling me you are "disappointed" in me and I'm being "immature". I also can't look past the fact that you were an accessory to the whole situation, you pretended and played along with him being this "Aly" person to everyone including me as well. I'm not saying you agreed it was right, I'm sure you don't, but you acted as an accessory while being aware of the situation, meaning that you tried to help him get away with it.

 

but yup, that's all. I don't think you're a bad person either, I certainly think you are very much on the wrong side of this argument but you seem like a good person to me and we would probably agree on 90% of other things besides this... and Taeyang being a baritone....and the larynx position of some pop singers...and sub-types...and some of the physiology of singing...and...okay u get the idea LOL. If you have anything else to say you can say it, but I don't have any more responses for you, I've been crystal clear. Like I said, I just needed to clear the air on it if I am gonna remain here by myself with no blog members here anymore. I need to do what I do here which is to try my best to inform about some vocals crap that is not discussed or understood as much, and I need to do that without people having predisposed notions against me because this is a vocal community after all.

 

L M F A O I laughed too hard at that in public for some reason

You should stop that list now that you're on top, it's my birthday. Give me this. So okay well I still think you two should talk. That's it. That's my stance on this. But okay be nicer to me when I ask you to tell me voice types? Kk? Bye bye. Stay well sir.

[AhMin]

 

wait... did everyone know this already except me? well.... whatever that person is, i still wish the best for Aly or K or whatever he or she is. although i have to admit, i am quite shocked with this exposé because I've been dealing with Matty and "Aly" since the old vocal thread on 6theory forums (the old allkpop forum), when other members such as Josias and zhx were still around, and then later, when akisame, Necki, and denise/stab were active, and countless other users, including Gummy and then later keith. like... ive been dealing with these people for a really long time. although ive never directly been in the drama, i have been around it. so..... i do feel a little dumb now that everything's coming together the way it has. although they usually ignore me nowadays, i was first introduced to Matty and "Aly" when i was 16, and im now 22. and ive been sending them my covers and asking them for advice for years. you know, it's not easy to send someone clips of your voice and have your singing be criticized. but i trusted them. so honestly i am a little hurt and confused that they kept this up in front of me for so long. the fact that even newer members here know this and have also participated in maintaining this facade right in my face is upsetting. but it's fine. i don't have any ill feelings toward anyone and i still wish them happiness outside of this little community. the one person that ive never directly spoken to is Haruko, but if it's true that she created an account on onehallyu just for the sole purpose of coming here to spite you... i may not understand everything that's built up to this point but i have to say, that's very petty. still, im glad that everyone has made the necessary apologies and moved on.

 

on a side note, i guess that makes me the most senior person here now, unless im forgetting someone. but ironically, im also the least knowledgeable on vocal pedagogy lol

Sigh Anthony most people don't know/didn't know. I didn't know until 2013 or 2014. So it's not just you.

[AhMin]

Vocal Range
G2 ~ G5 (3 octaves)
Supported Range
C3 ~ Bb4

Voice Type

Tenor

Read more by clicking the link here!

[AhMin]

 

Vocal Range
C3 ~ F#5 (2 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone)
Supported Range
A3 ~ C5

Voice Type

Soprano

Read more by clicking the link here!

[AhMin]

Oh wow! Such a nice baritone! To me, hearing resonance in heavier voices is always a problem. For example, I just can't hear resonance  when Ahmin sings. But I hear this guy clearly. Nice^^.

LMFAO so unintentional but u better hope he never sees that

Word travels fast.

[AhMin]

Noooooooo!

I hope you guys don't misunderstand  .

That was neither an attempt to criticize Ahmin nor shade him or whatever LOLOL. I'm sure he resonates but I was saying that I have trouble hearing resonance in heavier voices. And Matheus just happened to be one of the familiar examples I could give, since he is a baritone. 

I mean, when it comes to sopranos and tenors, I can hear the resonance quite clearly but baritones and mezzos are a different case. Most of the time, I can barely recognize resonance in even Whitney or Beyonce! Mostly I think it's because of the heavier timbres though. The heavier voice types timbres are so...well, heavy that when they resonate, it doesn't have the same quality that I hear from lighter voices.

I don't doubt that Ahmin resonates lol. I just have trouble hearing it from baritones in general.

I got what you meant, I was just teasing you don't worry. lol 

 

 

 

Ahmin is actually pretty light

 

its probably because when we learn resonance we're mainly given examples from lighter voices like tenors and LLS since theyre dominatingly prevalent.

 

 

but then again, matheus isnt as light of a baritone as me, or as pretty for that matter

 

 

just to let yall know

 

 

He is still the baritone king tho

 

These Mariah gifs LOOOOL Thanks Keith, I can always count on you to put me in a pedestal LOL

 

Kk bye everyone. *disappears for 10 years*

[AhMin]

 

[AhMin]

New analysis!

 

Vocal Range

E3 ~ A5 (2 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone)
Supported Range
Bb3/B3 ~ Bb4
Voice Type
Soprano
Read more by clicking the link here!

[AhMin]

 

Vocal Range

G#2 ~ A5 (3 octaves and 1 semitone)
Supported Range
Eb3/E3 ~ G4/G#4
Voice Type
Tenor
Read more by clicking the link here!

 

Vocal Range

F#2 ~ B4 (2 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone)
Supported Range
B2/C3 ~ B3/C4
Voice Type
Baritone
Read more by clicking the link here!

[AhMin]

I know I said I would not get involved and would leave this thread and I have. But I just wanna call some of this shit out because wow, this is a mess. This thread is a place for helpfulness, sharing and learning. Don't turn it back into what it was 5 years ago with all the shady confrontation and immaturity. 

 

 

Quite frankly, this is a bit rude. There's no reason to be so harsh on someone, especially someone who is still learning. It's not like anyone here is pretending to be a stellar vocalist. We all have room to improve.

I think everyone would agree constructive criticism is welcome, but you have to do it with a bit of tact. You have to be respectful. Your post makes it sound like it's totally awful, and it's not. I'm not hearing glaring pitch issues for instance. Yeah, some notes could be more relaxed and placed better, but I do think she has a good natural tone from listening to the other clips that are linked on Sound Cloud. She still sounds young. Her voice has a long time to mature, and she has time to practice and build on her foundation. This was six months ago anyway. I improved a lot in six months when I was studying rigorously.

This thread is a place to grow and learn and improve. We should be encouraging each other, not attacking. If you have advice for someone, feel free to give it, but make sure it's advice and not an attack. She has a teacher who is well aware of any issues she may have and is able to give her the proper guidance, so any untoward attack like this is really uncalled for.

 

Jstarfully, don't let it get to you. Don't take it to heart. I've heard worse things about me. But don't let anything like that put you in a bad mood. You have a nice voice already, and you have plenty of time to grow into your instrument and start slaying some people.

^ This. This is a place for learning, sharing and being open minded. If you're here to be a shady diva and make fun of others, please go to stan twitter and do that. 

 

 

Srsly you think you support? Have you heard it back? You were tight the whole thing, you project through your nose throughout, there's a lot that can be worked on ... I don't hear support tbh your berthing is not deep enough to even project an open note
If you think you support we hear very different things


Sent from my PHS-601 using OneHallyu mobile app

This was completely unnecessary. Are you guys close? Do you know each other? Do you know her well enough to say anything like that to her as if you were her friend? This "shade" thing ain't cute, it ain't funny. It is disrespectful, hurtful and if you want to be taken seriously, it does not help. Please cut it out.

 

 

I'm not trolling, You can't sing. Was I a bit rude? Maybe. But, base on some of these comments, it seem like you think you can sing,but that Soundcloud is saying something else. Just because someone doesn't agree with your(wrong) opinion doesn't mean their trolling.

 

Again, i'm no singing expert, but I still know what sound bad or good.

On the supporting part, you're not even supporting the first few seconds. Let alone the whole song. The only part that sound "right" was the low notes. Other then that, you sound very whiny 95% of the song, flat and strain is some part.

 

If she want to improved she should know she ain't all that. Pretending she's good ain't gonna help her. I mean look at her response, "Name a note in there that wasn't supported and then we'll talk." . Bitch, do you hear yourself?

You too. Not that I think you did it with ill intentions. But if you want to say something to her, be respectful. I don't wanna say I disagree because I don't, but the delivery of your message at first was already a bit careless and then this response was even more offensive. Now you don't have to listen to me, but remember that people have feelings and even if you do have something against her, this is not something you should say so carelessly. Give her constructive criticism.

 

 

Name a note in there that wasn't supported and then we'll talk.

I don't know if you care about what I have to say and I hope you don't take this offensively. However your response was a bit too attitude-y, don't you think? I mean the user was not careful with their wording, but your response is very closed off and a bit stand off ish. You don't seem to be welcoming constructive criticism either with this kind of response. 

 

 

And here are my two cents. In classical training, you're taught to sing from the head voice down, as a female. When singing pop, trying to unlock the chest voice and mix voice can be a challenge. Especially as a higher voiced female. Now you're still young, your voice is still changing. But you sing like you think you have a low voice. How do I mean that? You completely close off your throat when you get close to the fifth octave, you pull chest with a squeezed throat and a high larynx and then the sound comes out very strained. Now to me that happens because it feels as though you resist the higher range, so instead opening up a higher resonator, you stay stuck on a lower one afraid of lifting your voice, if that makes sense. So in that specific recording, there is hardly any true support. Most of the notes are indeed quite squeezed and strained. The D5 was quite flat as well, it was closer to C#5. But I do think there's a degree of support when you sing, I listened to other recordings and although I hear you expel a lot more than you need to, like in Whistle, you do remain more opened and the tone quality in your singing there carries support. The problem is that your throat muscles engage so much and so early on that your upper range suffers a lot. Around F4 ~ G#4, there's already constriction. Around C#4, there was already puffs of air coming out and not enough connection between your vocal cords with consistent air pressure. You push air in inconsistent puffs so that makes your stability in support suffer. So I don't know if you would listen to what I'm saying and I don't know what you sound like right now. For all I know all of these issues could've been fixed by now! And I do hope so, but it is a reality that that recording is full of tension and when someone mentions that, it would be at least humble of you to be opened to listen.

 

 

 

hi guys! so i found out my range is G3-D5 with g3 being my lowest note and d5 being my highest. Im a guy btw so that makes me a tenor, right?


also i haven’t really trained my voice, so this is kinda average, right? I’m trying to get vocal classes but I’m not sure if I should

I think you're singing an octave lower than the octaves you're indicating. It is quite common with young boys, especially baritones, to feel as though they're singing just as high as females. It is very unlikely that your lowest note is G3, even as a tenor. You'd have to a child with a voice that has not gone through puberty. My guess is that if you were to post a recording here, you'd most likely be singing G2 ~ D4. I feel like your question was a bit neglected, so I'd like to apologize and I hope if you're able to post a recording, that someone could direct you in a good light or over to me. lol  

[AhMin]

I replied like that because of the way they worded their critique.

I'm plenty open if people actually mention constructive critique like you did. Most of my problems in those songs are largely related to the fact that I'm putting a lot of concentration into pronouncing everything correctly. I have an easier time singing English songs and my support is consistent (usually) between F3-D5. I do know I sing too chest-heavy though, that's always been an issue of mine, and if I don't warm up and practice enough then, you're right, I do get a lot of tension in my throat, as well as my jaw sometimes.

I must say I do hear those things in the English clips you had too but I understand they're quite old. So perhaps by now you've managed to minimize such issues. Yes but I agree, this conversation with the other people is ...just not right. 

[AhMin]

Thank you so much! Can I send you a private message of a recording of me singing?

Not on here. Do it on my Twitter instead.

[AhMin]

matheus hello and no that isn't true, cmon now lol. Literally every single properly trained classical female vocalist I know has a more powerful chest voice than a mid larynx pop singer. There is no magic in the physiology of "neutral larynx" singing that can make it any stronger. I did not hear anything classically related in her clips anyway, too much emphasis placed on these labels like "classical" or whatever. The labels mean nothing on their own, if it doesn't involve lowering your larynx whatsoever than you are just not classical in any important way. Whatever the issues you brought up are, they are just related to learning to sing in a "neutral larynx" pop voice.

 

Okay you're right. I know. I was just trying to make sense out of why she, who claims to have received classical training, would have so many issues singing in her mix/chest voice when singing higher. I don't hear anything classical in the way she sings either, especially her head voice but I was trying to guess a reason. Btw, I'd like to talk to you about someone who preaches of CVT (I think that's what it's called) but Idk where to talk to you about that. They claim that there's no such thing as a baritone and every guy is a tenor. He's only met ONE true baritone. So yknow. Fascinating view, really.

 

[AhMin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I-tJeYUTTc

 

Oh Lord he made another video how long is he gonna rehash the same topic?

 

He is so insufferable! I feel bad for Matheus being dragged just because he made an  objective vocal analysis of jungkook 

 

 

 

but I do agree with something though it would be better not to rank idols with each other, maybe it's better so fandoms don't use it to bash and start fanwars.

 

 

 

We will change the ranking system! Don't worry, no more ranking!

 

 

OH MUH GAWD matheus were you talking about this Tristan guy? I would run the other way lmao he starts shit with everyone...the contemporary singing coaches in the online vocal community all have this beef going on with one another and he just adds to it. He got permanently banned from reddit for being annoying and confrontational. Don't even try to talk to him about voice types, he thinks most guys are tenors...yet he thinks Enrico Caruso, one of the best operatic tenors, was a baritone. He's just one of those guys that thinks everyone with a "deep" or "masculine" sound is a baritone and that everyone else is a tenor. I don't blame you if you can't ignore him tho, I had no idea he made a video calling you out like that lol. I just can't believe even you have to deal with him now. He's not worth the time.

 

ahhhh I see I see..hmm..yeah we'll see how it goes, we're singing some piece by Beethoven that I've never heard of. Makes me wanna fall asleep lol

It's him alright. It's okay, surprisingly he's a lot more civil than many people I've dealt with in the past actually. Although I disagree with a lot of what he says, I get where he's coming from.