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Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)


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On 4/15/2021 at 8:47 PM, C.Y. said:

Soooo, Key is also a tenor. Even in those timestamps he very much sounds like a tenor singing up to G4 and not a baritone. 

not only that, I am seriously gonna need to re-assess everything from scratch for basically any male singer I've heard in the past few years. My ears have developed a serious amount for voice typing in the last year alone since 2020, more so than the years before that combined and I can honestly say that a lot of singers I either thought were baritone are tenors. I also assumed Key himself and the other guys like Sungjae etc were high baritones but it was lazy hearing in hindsight, it was just suggested to me and I believed it without my ears being good enough to respond to the acoustic signs and verify. I even just brought up how a person on that kpopblog comments section mentioned Hwang Chi Yeol and I said it's true that he's a baritone just three or so posts ago...but I said that too hastily from assuming my past belief was still the same from what I thought I heard in the years prior. I literally just checked his voice just now, ran through all the acoustic signs and... yeah. He's not, and I'm in as much disbelief as anyone else reading this because I used to use him as a baritone example a few times to explain why someone may be a baritone, ironically enough.

hwang chi yeol around E4 - F#4 at 1:17 and G#4s at 2:12 - 2:16. This is a lower/larger tenor 😳...absolutely not what a lower baritone would sound like across these pitches for the coordination that he is using. It is surprising to me now because I've always heard things Hwang Chi Yeol was doing that sounded virtually indistinguishable to lower tenors doing it but I never focused on it and just assumed it was close sounding but not necessarily impossible for a baritone. It all kind of clicks now as to why I've heard him do very bigger tenor-like chest belts on A4 (like Han Dong Geun), or how he uses a low to medium intensity/volume or even breathiness around G4 in some performances with a vocal tract shaping that is not possible anyone other than tenors and higher.

michael bolton, another similar dark/husky voiced bigger tenor voice singing up to F#4 - E4 at 1:53 - 2:00

difference is Michael Bolton sings really fucking high, and Hwang Chi Yeol simply doesn't. He goes up to an A4 and stops usually, no different than a lot of the slightly rounder vowel, chest belty kind of lower tenors like Hang Dong Geun.

another huge clue that people don't usually pay attention to is the speaking voice again, Hwang Chi Yeol has a DARK voice and deeper for a tenor but the average pitch is no different than any bigger tenors I have heard, even the 100% verified operatic spinto/dramatic tenors who have the same average pitch as him.

It is tricky, but I think looking back through the years of learning voices, discerning things, learning from errors and what can trick your ear or make it difficult to tell, when it really boils down to voice typing people it is about having enough experience/ear training to discern whether the notes being sung from the passaggio and onward (and also C3ish and below) are being executed in a vocal tract shape and vocal fold coordination that is possible for a lower vs higher voice. The listener REALLY has to ignore all the things like how dark or "mature" the voice sounds, how husky it appears, even to an extent how deep or round it may appear (though after some point this does matter), and focus on whether the sound you hear from say E4 and above is the result of the vocal tract shaping in a way that would be necessary for someone of a lower voice (and not necessary for someone of a higher voice). This also has to be assessed in conjunction with whether the natural intensity/loudness of the note corresponds to the type of coordination the singer is using, which tells us whether that singer really does have a lower or higher passaggio. What I just said was loaded and complicated as hell but it really is that complex, there is no simple way to do this.

 

@Nana686 He sure did 

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Official Vocals Thread   Welcome to the Vocal Thread. Here is where discussions about vocal abilities, the technical aspects of singing and singing in general are held. You can ask any quest

I'm going to start this post by first saying, I have no idea who you are Jennaayy or what you know about vocals. You seem to be a Hyorin fan and I've never seen you before so I apologize if I may come

Y'all stay requesting analyses when there is still this quite sizeable list of people who are going to be analyzed. Think of it like this we are carrying 100 pounds then you give us 10 more pounds and

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4 hours ago, Nana686 said:

didn't C.Y made a long post days ago explaining how his voice is higher than of a baritone ✨👄✨ ?

 

That's why I said 'might' I didn't remember correctly his post lol. 

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8 minutes ago, Wdojcdid8 said:

heyyyo how do i search for specific people again?

 

"Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)" and then key in the person you want to search for

Edited by himi
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Hi! I've been lurking on this thread for a little while now and I just got up the courage to ask a question I've had for a fairly long time. I was wondering what you're guys thoughts are on The Boyz Younghoon's vocal type. He's only a sub vocal but I find his vocal type to be quite confusing. (Probably just my own inexperience). I don't think he supports (though I could be wrong) and I haven't heard him phrase anything higher than an A4. He has some sustained G4s and one odd slide up to a D5 (2:32) (I've only heard him do it live once 3 years ago) which sounds like an extremely heady mix to me? The lowest note I've heard from him is a G#2 but it didn't sound like the very bottom of his range to me so I'd guess he has a few more notes under that. The thing that's hardest to pinpoint for me (and probably the reason I struggle identifying his vocal type) is his passaggio. 

Here is a performance of his from King of the Masked Singer:

Thank you!

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im too lazy to read through so ill just ask, sorry if this has been asked before lol

how is seungkwan's note in 5:12

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5 hours ago, Toxic Scorpio said:

this thread is full of foolishness 🤡 Reggie Vu makes the best kpop videos on technique nowadays and is not biased

Oh definitely agree. And Tristan Paredes is the most reliable vocal coach on YouTube  for sure

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Toxic Scorpio said:

this thread is full of foolishness 🤡 Reggie Vu makes the best kpop videos on technique nowadays and is not biased

It funny you say that cause all of you are still lurking here....for wht tho ?

55928c3fa70c748430ea7e495cc139e7c7749006 

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Yall really had a whole party here while I was gone I can even hear the circus, a lot of clowns for sure

 

I was backreading and I am a baritone for absolute sure, but my voice has a very light and airy quality but it's due to some issues with my vocal chords

And what is it with the whole antagonizing with people who don't even visit this forum anymore, you got an issue go resolve that with the person directly through other platforms... Just saying writting whole essays with pettiness here ain't helping. A good conversation between two connoisseurs can help improve both people involved... anyways just saying

 

Gotta add that we need to put NCT existence into context, they were never meant to be a vocal group. SM as always would put a few guys with capabilities of singing but it wouldn't be the same as their seniors (TVXQ, SHINee, SNSD etc), their focus was on other things. That explains why Doyoung changed "drastically" to a more stylistic singer, it was planned as such... I'm not surprised he is seeking vocal training outside SM, that's the same thing Taemin did in his prime.

Btw can we mention Jungwoo and his cute lil supported range of half notes? If we remembering Yuta on these ❤️

 

On 5/2/2021 at 4:02 PM, Oriane said:

Ahmin ? Since he said it (and since almost everyone follows his opinions somehow) I’ve seen a lot of people calling him a low tenor...

Also who is the best vocalist in ACE ? They seem decent for boy groups standards.

I'm a fan and not someone you should COMPLETELY rely but there's my analysis

I hear support in all 3 of them

Jun in my opinion has a lot of issues with overpushing and tightness which leads to him straining pretty soon on his range, he also sounds chesty imo

Donghun albeit more relaxed also has a tendency of squeezing up his range and I notice how tense he gets, his lower range is quite tasteful though imo 

Chan overall sounds the most relaxed (lol) although on the higher notes nothing can be done lmao

 

 

this part change was revealing, honestly Jun and Donghun can be so tense... Yet I'd rank them Donghun > Chan > Jun

Also... poor Wow... Another baritone lost in a sea of tenors

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On 5/3/2021 at 12:36 PM, BAZISSINO said:

her run

I thought that as well, when she did it in concert though it was messy.

BTW @exidek have you heard Solji bring support down to F#3? Several ppl keep claiming it's been happening but they either claim its from videos where its actually airy or never back it up. The closest I heard is 1:32, which I feel like wasn't bad: 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2021 at 11:30 PM, Wdojcdid8 said:

im too lazy to read through so ill just ask, sorry if this has been asked before lol

how is seungkwan's note in 5:12

He sang B4-A4. He strained it with a high larynx but I don't think it was supposed to be an actual attempt, since the short notes were for fun. 

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On 5/2/2021 at 1:22 PM, Oriane said:

Seriously ? Another fake baritone ? I’m disappointed. Is he another Sungjae ? Very developed chest voice and ok upper.

I’m glad Jaehyun is a real baritone, the lack of baritone representation in Kpop is real. He’s the only one in that list who’s a baritone then...
Also why is everyone saying Hwanhee is a low tenor if he’s an actual baritone ? 

there's much more tenors in general, not just kpop, because the basic view of what makes a male singer "skilled" is being able to sing into the middle of the fourth octave, at the least, or higher/much higher. So this ends up being largely advantageous for tenors because even intermediate skill tenors (or even ones more towards an incredibly average/beginner-ish level like Jay Park or Jaehyun) can make it much easier professionally, since it is way easier for companies/record labels to find a tenor who can sing up to G4-A4 and be in this area consistently/often as opposed to finding a baritone to do this, which would be far more difficult.

anyway sorry Jaehyun is actually a tenor too. I checked him out the other day and did some lazy listening so I thought he might have been a baritone, since I couldn't find much of his singing at all above D4 and I listened to stuff like "a whole new world" or whatever. I tried to listen to his speaking voice, but no the median pitch of his speaking voice is actually tenor as well overall, besides some random interview I first listened to with him speaking tired and around F#2/G2 but other than that it is around the average pitch for tenors. And thanks to the clips that ZHR posted, it is very obvious that he is just a tenor who barely ever sings high.

G4s 2:24, yeah that's just a tenor sound, Jaehyun is just keeping the relative amount of chest quality in his tone without the degree to which a baritone would have to modify their vocal tract shaping for the same effect

these are some actual baritones for comparison below, there are many different sounds you'll hear with baritones singing past Eb4 but the most common sound are these examples I'm choosing since bright vowels/"light mix" is by far the most common way to sing popular genres these days. Since the baritone passaggio is lower, singers who want to continue singing bright past there begin to have a vocal tract shaping where the "twang" is increasing to some degree (but you can sound hooty if you intentionally sing in a softer dynamic, but this is in regards to anything that is sung at more of a medium to relatively loud volume), or what you might hear some people call a "vocal cry" quality. A sort of more whiny timbre quality. I hesitate to say "whiny" because there's a negative connotation to it, but it can be done healthily and efficiently enough so I don't mean it in a bad way, it's just how it sort of sounds compared to a chesty belt sound. There are other ways baritones sing higher, in a slightly darker and more chest belty kind of sound like John Legend or Scott Hoying but their kind of style is not as common as the "light mix" way of singing pop. Though keep in mind a lot of tenors use this sort of very bright, "cry" kind of mix all over their voice too (like R&b singers or the weeknd, ed sheeran) so it's not like anyone who has this is automatically a baritone, but it's just that it is a necessity for a baritone to do at a medium to loud volume and it is to a more noticeable degree and volume intensity compared to a tenor doing it.

Joji is a baritone, he's singing some F#4s at 0:12 and 0:18. Good thing to note is that singing in this way does not make you sound "heavy" or "chesty" or even loud so just because a baritone doesn't sound that way at these pitches doesn't mean it's a tenor

3:24 below - F#4, again a high baritone using this bright sort of "cry" vocal tract shape , or some more twang 

ahmin again, I like using him lmao because he's literally one of the only vocal coaches in the internet community that got his own voice type correctly. There's only a bazillion tenor vocal coaches online, or tenor members in general in the online singing community, who are entirely convinced that they are baritones.

4:48 - 4:54 on the E4/F4s very, very obvious twang/cry vocal tract shaping here...really compare this to Jaehyun singing G4s, again Jaehyun can keep this relative amount of chest tone in his mix much easier without doing any vowel shaping a baritone would because he is just a tenor

and of course, Hwanhee (he has a heavier baritone voice than the guys above) who does use a brighter mix much of the time -- all over this video for the higher parts you hear this sort of vocal tract shaping that takes on a relatively more twang, or "whiny/cry" kind of tonality

just listen to anything from 4:25 onwards, very obvious on the EE sound at 4:43

On 5/3/2021 at 9:28 AM, meeeplet said:

Hi! I've been lurking on this thread for a little while now and I just got up the courage to ask a question I've had for a fairly long time. I was wondering what you're guys thoughts are on The Boyz Younghoon's vocal type. He's only a sub vocal but I find his vocal type to be quite confusing. (Probably just my own inexperience). I don't think he supports (though I could be wrong) and I haven't heard him phrase anything higher than an A4. He has some sustained G4s and one odd slide up to a D5 (2:32) (I've only heard him do it live once 3 years ago) which sounds like an extremely heady mix to me? The lowest note I've heard from him is a G#2 but it didn't sound like the very bottom of his range to me so I'd guess he has a few more notes under that. The thing that's hardest to pinpoint for me (and probably the reason I struggle identifying his vocal type) is his passaggio. 

Here is a performance of his from King of the Masked Singer:

Thank you!

honestly if you hear a guy that sounds anything like this, that kind of very bright floaty soft/light kind of sound into the middle of the fourth octave (the way he does here) and you blindly guessed it was tenor, you have like a 90% probability of being correct anyway lol because a baritone would be unlikely, especially in popular korean music it seems. But yeah he's just a tenor, you can compare him to the four examples above and he simply does not even need any of this type of brightly twanged or cry/whiny kind of vowel shape to the degree that a baritone would be using at the same pitches.

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On 5/2/2021 at 3:02 PM, Oriane said:

Ahmin ? Since he said it (and since almost everyone follows his opinions somehow) I’ve seen a lot of people calling him a low tenor...

well he's definitely a baritone, though distinguishing lower tenors and baritones can be tricky.

this is his speaking voice first of all, it's not always this low in average pitch but here he is constantly on Eb2 or even C#2, even lower than my speaking voice in the little vocaroo thing I posted (though I kind of vocal fry around a C2/C#2 if I'm tired). He has a very clear low voice, it's not the same as listening to tenors who randomly dip into E2/F2 when they are speaking. His median pitch is truly just lower and is also clear in sound, rather than heavily vocal fry or a quiet volume. 

0:22 - 0:28

one of his more recent performances, you can hear all the twang and "vocal cry" or specifically brightened vowel shape he has to use in this range. He is also struggling honestly in many parts of these songs, because it's...high.

He's just constantly in the uppermost part of the baritone range E4 - G#4/A4 and then even mixes up to a C#5 at 18:08 lmao. If you listen to 17:47 - 18:05 with all the A4s and G#4s he just sounds labored on this particular day. Just not the same thing as being a tenor like Seungyoon where the guy is just always on G4-A4 and it isn't the same kind of reach, Seungyoon is so similar in timbre to listening to someone like Brendon Urie except rarely ever singing above an A4 😭

 

Edited by C.Y.
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48 minutes ago, C.Y. said:

anyway sorry Jaehyun is actually a tenor too

😢😢 i cry. With these revelations I can't think of one baritone vocalist in K-pop off the top of my head anymore (aside from John Park if you count him). How is it possible they're all filtered out like this welp, sad very sad

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Hello, what do you think about Renjun and Chenle in this performance of NCT dream ? And I think that Jisung (the one with a deep voice) is doing well for a sub vocalist.

 

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Jaehyun is also another tenor disguising as a baritone? 🤯 damn. Would have never guessed. 

 

But then i'm lowkey happy. Means his lows aren't bad. C#3 for a tenor lol

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2 hours ago, C.Y. said:

well he's definitely a baritone, though distinguishing lower tenors and baritones can be tricky.

this is his speaking voice first of all, it's not always this low in average pitch but here he is constantly on Eb2 or even C#2, even lower than my speaking voice in the little vocaroo thing I posted (though I kind of vocal fry around a C2/C#2 if I'm tired). He has a very clear low voice, it's not the same as listening to tenors who randomly dip into E2/F2 when they are speaking. His median pitch is truly just lower and is also clear in sound, rather than heavily vocal fry or a quiet volume. 

0:22 - 0:28

one of his more recent performances, you can hear all the twang and "vocal cry" or specifically brightened vowel shape he has to use in this range. He is also struggling honestly in many parts of these songs, because it's...high.

He's just constantly in the uppermost part of the baritone range E4 - G#4/A4 and then even mixes up to a C#5 at 18:08 lmao. If you listen to 17:47 - 18:05 with all the A4s and G#4s he just sounds labored on this particular day. Just not the same thing as being a tenor like Seungyoon where the guy is just always on G4-A4 and it isn't the same kind of reach, Seungyoon is so similar in timbre to listening to someone like Brendon Urie except rarely ever singing above an A4 😭

 

Thanks for the reply ! Honestly that means his lower register is not underdeveloped... Better than nothing I guess lmao. I was almost sure he was a baritone, a shame.

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4 hours ago, C.Y. said:

there's much more tenors in general, not just kpop, because the basic view of what makes a male singer "skilled" is being able to sing into the middle of the fourth octave, at the least, or higher/much higher. So this ends up being largely advantageous for tenors because even intermediate skill tenors (or even ones more towards an incredibly average/beginner-ish level like Jay Park or Jaehyun) can make it much easier professionally, since it is way easier for companies/record labels to find a tenor who can sing up to G4-A4 and be in this area consistently/often as opposed to finding a baritone to do this, which would be far more difficult.

anyway sorry Jaehyun is actually a tenor too. I checked him out the other day and did some lazy listening so I thought he might have been a baritone, since I couldn't find much of his singing at all above D4 and I listened to stuff like "a whole new world" or whatever. I tried to listen to his speaking voice, but no the median pitch of his speaking voice is actually tenor as well overall, besides some random interview I first listened to with him speaking tired and around F#2/G2 but other than that it is around the average pitch for tenors. And thanks to the clips that ZHR posted, it is very obvious that he is just a tenor who barely ever sings high.

G4s 2:24, yeah that's just a tenor sound, Jaehyun is just keeping the relative amount of chest quality in his tone without the degree to which a baritone would have to modify their vocal tract shaping for the same effect

these are some actual baritones for comparison below, there are many different sounds you'll hear with baritones singing past Eb4 but the most common sound are these examples I'm choosing since bright vowels/"light mix" is by far the most common way to sing popular genres these days. Since the baritone passaggio is lower, singers who want to continue singing bright past there begin to have a vocal tract shaping where the "twang" is increasing to some degree (but you can sound hooty if you intentionally sing in a softer dynamic, but this is in regards to anything that is sung at more of a medium to relatively loud volume), or what you might hear some people call a "vocal cry" quality. A sort of more whiny timbre quality. I hesitate to say "whiny" because there's a negative connotation to it, but it can be done healthily and efficiently enough so I don't mean it in a bad way, it's just how it sort of sounds compared to a chesty belt sound. There are other ways baritones sing higher, in a slightly darker and more chest belty kind of sound like John Legend or Scott Hoying but their kind of style is not as common as the "light mix" way of singing pop. Though keep in mind a lot of tenors use this sort of very bright, "cry" kind of mix all over their voice too (like R&b singers or the weeknd, ed sheeran) so it's not like anyone who has this is automatically a baritone, but it's just that it is a necessity for a baritone to do at a medium to loud volume and it is to a more noticeable degree and volume intensity compared to a tenor doing it.

Joji is a baritone, he's singing some F#4s at 0:12 and 0:18. Good thing to note is that singing in this way does not make you sound "heavy" or "chesty" or even loud so just because a baritone doesn't sound that way at these pitches doesn't mean it's a tenor

3:24 below - F#4, again a high baritone using this bright sort of "cry" vocal tract shape , or some more twang 

ahmin again, I like using him lmao because he's literally one of the only vocal coaches in the internet community that got his own voice type correctly. There's only a bazillion tenor vocal coaches online, or tenor members in general in the online singing community, who are entirely convinced that they are baritones.

4:48 - 4:54 on the E4/F4s very, very obvious twang/cry vocal tract shaping here...really compare this to Jaehyun singing G4s, again Jaehyun can keep this relative amount of chest tone in his mix much easier without doing any vowel shaping a baritone would because he is just a tenor

and of course, Hwanhee (he has a heavier baritone voice than the guys above) who does use a brighter mix much of the time -- all over this video for the higher parts you hear this sort of vocal tract shaping that takes on a relatively more twang, or "whiny/cry" kind of tonality

just listen to anything from 4:25 onwards, very obvious on the EE sound at 4:43

honestly if you hear a guy that sounds anything like this, that kind of very bright floaty soft/light kind of sound into the middle of the fourth octave (the way he does here) and you blindly guessed it was tenor, you have like a 90% probability of being correct anyway lol because a baritone would be unlikely, especially in popular korean music it seems. But yeah he's just a tenor, you can compare him to the four examples above and he simply does not even need any of this type of brightly twanged or cry/whiny kind of vowel shape to the degree that a baritone would be using at the same pitches.

Thank you so much for your response! I totally get what you're saying for Younghoon and I agree.

4 hours ago, C.Y. said:

well he's definitely a baritone, though distinguishing lower tenors and baritones can be tricky.

this is his speaking voice first of all, it's not always this low in average pitch but here he is constantly on Eb2 or even C#2, even lower than my speaking voice in the little vocaroo thing I posted (though I kind of vocal fry around a C2/C#2 if I'm tired). He has a very clear low voice, it's not the same as listening to tenors who randomly dip into E2/F2 when they are speaking. His median pitch is truly just lower and is also clear in sound, rather than heavily vocal fry or a quiet volume. 

If you don't mind, I have a question about speaking pitch relative to vocal type. I've only ever seem EXO's rapline classified as baritones. However, Chanyeol's lowest note is a D2 and Sehun's an F#2. Both of them seem to speak mostly in the upper second octave, as do a lot of other supposed baritones (both rappers and vocalists). Jaehyun does too. (I found him speaking mostly around an A2, same for Chanyeol. Even Felix speaks around a G#2). Does that mean that Chanyeol and Sehun speak in a tenor range? If so, does a tenor speaking range stretch from the upper third octave to the mid second octave? What would a baritone speaking range be then? Thanks for your help :)

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4 hours ago, C.Y. said:

there's much more tenors in general, not just kpop, because the basic view of what makes a male singer "skilled" is being able to sing into the middle of the fourth octave, at the least, or higher/much higher. So this ends up being largely advantageous for tenors because even intermediate skill tenors (or even ones more towards an incredibly average/beginner-ish level like Jay Park or Jaehyun) can make it much easier professionally, since it is way easier for companies/record labels to find a tenor who can sing up to G4-A4 and be in this area consistently/often as opposed to finding a baritone to do this, which would be far more difficult.

anyway sorry Jaehyun is actually a tenor too. I checked him out the other day and did some lazy listening so I thought he might have been a baritone, since I couldn't find much of his singing at all above D4 and I listened to stuff like "a whole new world" or whatever. I tried to listen to his speaking voice, but no the median pitch of his speaking voice is actually tenor as well overall, besides some random interview I first listened to with him speaking tired and around F#2/G2 but other than that it is around the average pitch for tenors. And thanks to the clips that ZHR posted, it is very obvious that he is just a tenor who barely ever sings high.

 

wait so does that mean jaehyun is not even average?

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4 minutes ago, jaedimps said:

wait so does that mean jaehyun is not even average?

I think it would given he doesn't support up to an F4.

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5 minutes ago, meeeplet said:

I think it would given he doesn't support up to an F4.

well Idk if he is actually not a bartione but if that's true then I'm sad... Jaehyun is my fav nct vocalist

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11 minutes ago, meeeplet said:

I think it would given he doesn't support up to an F4.

Shouldn't his lower register somewhat helps bump him up? A C#3 is pretty good for a tenor. Not to mention his support is solid. It's not shallow or anything. That should at least make him average

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30 minutes ago, jaedimps said:

wait so does that mean jaehyun is not even average?

 

15 minutes ago, himi said:

Shouldn't his lower register somewhat helps bump him up? A C#3 is pretty good for a tenor. Not to mention his support is solid. It's not shallow or anything. That should at least make him average

Depends entirely on how he sings his notes. Frankly, most of the time that he sings, he's going way too soft (regardless of which voice type he is) but when he goes a bit chestier, a bit more grounded like in that Gimme Gimme recording, then the quality of his G4s are not bad already. They were great for a baritone but still decent enough for a tenor I guess. We still haven't heard enough to be sure of his consistency tbh but there's still a chance. 

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mess so jaehyun is just a tenor?

That baritone gate is starting to get very disappointing, are there even any true baritones in K-Pop nowadays? Omg

3 hours ago, himi said:

Jaehyun is also another tenor disguising as a baritone? 🤯 damn. Would have never guessed. 

 

But then i'm lowkey happy. Means his lows aren't bad. C#3 for a tenor lol

I mean in that way you could say V has a good lower register for a tenor too. I just don't understand how they all ended up having that supported tenor lower register when their technique isn't even that good??? 

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