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Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

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It's an old video about best Eb5. Which one is actually good? I only know Younha, Lina, Taeyeon, Luna (1st Eb5), Haeri, Hyorin, Yeonji, Ailee, Younghyun, Ock Joohyun (not sure), Sohyang is good. 

Edited by freeask?

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On 12/2/2019 at 1:26 PM, C.Y. said:

That makes no sense, I mean you don’t believe me on some other things so maybe I’m not even intermediate level? Maybe i’m weak and a beginner at chest coordination but who would know without the ummm insightful assessments that you’ve been giving us this past year. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Me bringing up the fact that I have always supported my claims with evidence is not narcissistic, but ok. If someone tried to tell you that you’re being baseless or dishonest in whatever your field is then you’d respond the same.

but anyway, that will be all then. You don’t want to give a proper response to anything I said because you can’t and I don’t blame you. 

I took a break from this yesterday because I didn't want to fool with you on my birthday, lol. But I'll keep it short because you didn't say much. 

It's not about being able to respond. It's just that I'm not going to be baited into judging your singing--which you're going to argue about--when you've already admitted you're just intermediate in that style. My whole point is that you want to act like an authority when you aren't even that good in the style you keep on about, and that won't change even if I analyze your singing or post my own. I'm no longer getting caught in your rabbit holes that have nothing to do with my point. 

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On 12/3/2019 at 3:45 PM, freeask? said:

It's an old video about best Eb5. Which one is actually good? I only know Younha, Lina, Taeyeon, Luna (1st Eb5), Haeri, Hyorin, Yeonji, Ailee, Younghyun, Ock Joohyun (not sure), Sohyang is good. 

the video is from 2013 so some clips are old Eunji has better Eb5s nowadays @1:58 i don't know the girl but it sounded ok to me , Ock has some good Eb5s too here @6:18 and @6:33

 

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3 hours ago, KoreaxxLove said:

I took a break from this yesterday because I didn't want to fool with you on my birthday, lol. But I'll keep it short because you didn't say much. 

It's not about being able to respond. It's just that I'm not going to be baited into judging your singing--which you're going to argue about--when you've already admitted you're just intermediate in that style. My whole point is that you want to act like an authority when you aren't even that good in the style you keep on about, and that won't change even if I analyze your singing or post my own. I'm no longer getting caught in your rabbit holes that have nothing to do with my point. 

This whole thing with saying I'm acting like an authority is really pointless, I'm having a vocal debate and I debate as hard as a lot of people do, including you. You're the one who makes youtube videos. I could sit here and tell you that you think you're authority as well, but that's a waste of time because you already told me you were worse before I even posted anyway so it's odd you'd try to go this way. I have a feeling you might respond to what I just said in a certain way but I really hope you don't because it will confirm my observations of the way you try to make points. You couldn't even tell me what "intermediate" and "good" even means in an operatic sense. The point was never to show either of us to be "good" or advanced at chest coordination. The idea is to show fundamentals, some basis of breathing coordination and vocal fold coordination, and then maybe your silly claims that SCS is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than David Phelps and Naul can at least make a SHRED of sense. That type of comparison is beyond your abilities. You can't give me your opinion on me because you can't even explain properly why SCS has waaay less constriction than David and Naul, you can only say "I just don't agree". You also call people goons who you rip info off of, so surely it begs the question of what you can do because the people from that pedagogy have only produced results. But you've got nothing but insults for them and nothing to show for it.

here's another stupid thing you tried to argue, the whole fame thing with opera singers at the Met. I can't wait for your rebuttal on this one actually, try not to dodge it like you did everything else. You saw the video with Jonas Kaufmann, and he's literally the most famous tenor in the world. We can agree that in opera, the goal is to develop the most powerful and efficiently resonant sound, yes? In the way that a 200m freestyle in swimming and 100m dash is about the most efficient technique for speed. So how is it that the most famous tenor (and we can use Netrebko as well since she's the most famous soprano and had a similar change) can do two drastically different sounds and still get hired to sing at all the biggest stages in an artform that is about the most powerful and efficient sound? Did you see Michael Phelps doing the doggy paddle or breaststroke instead of the front crawl during the 200m freestyle? Did you see Usain Bolt skipping or Naruto running in the 100m dash? No, because the fact of the matter is that the current state of opera is bullshit and you can get hired doing a plethora of things that has nothing to do with the correct method. Anyone who thinks there are a bunch of ways to efficiently sing in the most powerful/resonant manner in 2019 is a moron, and there are a lot of morons these days. Believing you can be part of the greatest opera singers just because you're at the Met today when even the most famous opera singers in the world get hired while doing drastically different sounds in their careers is as absurd as believing there is a better way to swim/run the 200m freestyle/100m dash than the front crawl/sprint. Clearly you disagree and tried to insult people that think otherwise because we have no "real careers", so feel free to give me your insightful rebuttal on this matter.

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On 12/4/2019 at 4:22 PM, C.Y. said:

This whole thing with saying I'm acting like an authority is really pointless, I'm having a vocal debate and I debate as hard as a lot of people do, including you. You're the one who makes youtube videos. I could sit here and tell you that you think you're authority as well, but that's a waste of time because you already told me you were worse before I even posted anyway so it's odd you'd try to go this way. I have a feeling you might respond to what I just said in a certain way but I really hope you don't because it will confirm my observations of the way you try to make points. You couldn't even tell me what "intermediate" and "good" even means in an operatic sense. The point was never to show either of us to be "good" or advanced at chest coordination. The idea is to show fundamentals, some basis of breathing coordination and vocal fold coordination, and then maybe your silly claims that SCS is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than David Phelps and Naul can at least make a SHRED of sense. That type of comparison is beyond your abilities. You can't give me your opinion on me because you can't even explain properly why SCS has waaay less constriction than David and Naul, you can only say "I just don't agree". You also call people goons who you rip info off of, so surely it begs the question of what you can do because the people from that pedagogy have only produced results. But you've got nothing but insults for them and nothing to show for it.

here's another stupid thing you tried to argue, the whole fame thing with opera singers at the Met. I can't wait for your rebuttal on this one actually, try not to dodge it like you did everything else. You saw the video with Jonas Kaufmann, and he's literally the most famous tenor in the world. We can agree that in opera, the goal is to develop the most powerful and efficiently resonant sound, yes? In the way that a 200m freestyle in swimming and 100m dash is about the most efficient technique for speed. So how is it that the most famous tenor (and we can use Netrebko as well since she's the most famous soprano and had a similar change) can do two drastically different sounds and still get hired to sing at all the biggest stages in an artform that is about the most powerful and efficient sound? Did you see Michael Phelps doing the doggy paddle or breaststroke instead of the front crawl during the 200m freestyle? Did you see Usain Bolt skipping or Naruto running in the 100m dash? No, because the fact of the matter is that the current state of opera is bullshit and you can get hired doing a plethora of things that has nothing to do with the correct method. Anyone who thinks there are a bunch of ways to efficiently sing in the most powerful/resonant manner in 2019 is a moron, and there are a lot of morons these days. Believing you can be part of the greatest opera singers just because you're at the Met today when even the most famous opera singers in the world get hired while doing drastically different sounds in their careers is as absurd as believing there is a better way to swim/run the 200m freestyle/100m dash than the front crawl/sprint. Clearly you disagree and tried to insult people that think otherwise because we have no "real careers", so feel free to give me your insightful rebuttal on this matter.

I had a long comment and then my computer froze, so I'll keep this really short. 

It's important because that's how you build your arguments. It's not about debating hard. And there's really nothing to debate here. I'm only quoting your own admission that you don't sing very well in the style you trained in and want to convince everyone you're so knowledgeable in. I'm not being baited into anything just so you can try to undercut me in the hopes that no one will believe what I said about your ability. But you're the one who said you aren't that good. Not me. But, yes, Mr. Authority. We'll trust your expertise in the matter. 

I explained what I meant by that already. None of the rest of this here is relevant. If you want to say, "modern opera careers don't require one to be technically efficient so a 'real career' in the sense you've already described to me is meaningless," fine. But you already know what I meant by the comment and know it had nothing to do with fame. 

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Completely unrelated but interesting (to me, at least). 

I've been reading Mahalia's biography and snippets of Kay's as well. I read Kay's first and was struck by a passage concerning a performance for Kennedy's inauguration. Organized by Kay, singers at the event included the likes of Frank Sinatra ... and Mahalia Jackson. 

Interestingly, Kay's biography and Mahalia's recount two different versions of what happened. Kay's mentions that Mahalia would be singing the US national anthem--but that Mahalia didn't know the words. 

Specifically, it says: 

"To Kay's chagrin, Mahalia Jackson did not know any of the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner," and because she couldn't read, cue cards were not an option."

Mahalia's biography, on the other hand, suggests Mahalia was the only one who knew the words and gives an account of a cross exchange from Mahalia and Kay. 

"One thing--she knew her words. That was more than some could say, from the sound of them backstage. 'Why don't they get ... ' 'We don't sing this song all the time ... ' 'Well, we don't know this ... '

"Ooohhhhhh, the singers fussing about their Star-Spangled Banner! Her cue. She walked on. Mildred started--the band was to come in, this first rehearsal, and Halie [Mahalia] began, 'O-h, say can you see--' Kay Thompson, taking the music run-through, had given a lot of instructions to the musicians and to everybody and Halie had listened somewhat but the only thing she had to concentrate on was singing this song. 'O-h, say can you see--' This woman [Kay] speaking to Mildred! got some complaint! -- the key? the tempo? Halie caught enough. 

"'Do you want to sing this song!' she thundered. 'Do you want to sing this song? You come on up here and sing--' Laurence Olivier saw her face and came running. Leonard Bernstein, closer, moved in too; 'she doesn't sing,' he said hurriedly ... Olivier spoke to Miss Thompson, then in the nicest way possible explained to Mahalia ... now she [Kay] gone over to Sinatra ...

"Mr. Bernstein explained the music part ... and while she [Mahalia] had the chance, she asked Mr. Oliva (sp?) about some of her diction." 

Taking the two together, it seems to me that Kay likely had a problem with Mahalia's diction, and perhaps the key and tempo as well. Kay's biography suggests she was notoriously hard to work with--and seemingly so if even Mahalia Jackson yelled at her. 

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9 hours ago, KoreaxxLove said:

Completely unrelated but interesting (to me, at least). 

I've been reading Mahalia's biography and snippets of Kay's as well. I read Kay's first and was struck by a passage concerning a performance for Kennedy's inauguration. Organized by Kay, singers at the event included the likes of Frank Sinatra ... and Mahalia Jackson. 

yeah no one cares since Kay was "not very good" at all, can't even keep the same technique she intended up to D5 and had a tessitura that didn't even exceed the fourth octave 😂 Similar to a lot of the singers you bring up, Ethel Merman and Song Changsik (who can't even sustain anything in a remotely difficult tenor tessitura and can't even sing lower/mid without heavy constriction), Betty Buckley and LSH (both sopranos who can't even remotely come near the G5 area in passable modern pop technique, let alone with their intended chest coordination), YHE (lol), Elaine Paige. You get zero credit for learning Shirley Bassey off of TiO who you need to namedrop all the time now because you lack examples. By the way I don't blame some of those singers, musical theater for women really didn't have a difficult tessitura. One of the only singers who is incidentally advanced is Barbra, but you can literally walk down the street and ask anyone if Barbra, Whitney, Mariah, and other famous and respected female singers were good and they'd say yes. You were simply lucky a tiny portion of the singers you brought up are advanced at what they do, the others are "not very good". A lot of them barely even "not very good" seeing as how I was lenient and said Merman was at best intermediate, some not even close to being "not very good", like Song Changsik. Believe me when I say I could have been much more harshly worded on some of your singers for having a serious lack of range, no attempts at singing in a difficult tessitura and inconsistency throughout the mid and/or above it.

The most cringey part of your examples is how most of these singers have no relevance to the type of singing people discuss in the online community 😐 so you're not even right that they are skilled enough to talk about, but also no one listens to them or wants to sound like them...you've really been wasting your time comparing them to the pop singers people talk about. 

9 hours ago, KoreaxxLove said:

I had a long comment and then my computer froze, so I'll keep this really short. 

It's important because that's how you build your arguments. It's not about debating hard. And there's really nothing to debate here. I'm only quoting your own admission that you don't sing very well in the style you trained in and want to convince everyone you're so knowledgeable in. I'm not being baited into anything just so you can try to undercut me in the hopes that no one will believe what I said about your ability. But you're the one who said you aren't that good. Not me. But, yes, Mr. Authority. We'll trust your expertise in the matter. 

I explained what I meant by that already. None of the rest of this here is relevant. If you want to say, "modern opera careers don't require one to be technically efficient so a 'real career' in the sense you've already described to me is meaningless," fine. But you already know what I meant by the comment and know it had nothing to do with fame. 

Oh, conveniently dodged, again. You did explain, and your explanation along with your pure ad hominem at TiO is that opera is high art, and so you implied we should assume singers at the Met are highly skilled. You'll try to deny this, but this implication is clear as day. By the way, the pop singers you criticize like Whitney, Naul, Kyuhyun, David Phelps, Beyoncé aren't autotuned live so your response was irrelevant, your ad hominem at TiO was both dumb and hypocritical. You realize you saying "fine" to my response up there without a rebuttal means that what you implied about singing at the Met was wrong, right? And that your attack on TiO was plain stupid? I don't know if you caught on. But the main point, for the millionth time, is you ripping information off of TiO and then insulting them elsewhere and just now right here under the same breath. You brought up Shirley Bassey 10 times the last few days with TONGUE RETRACTION as a positive, a singer you only started using BECAUSE of TiO. Yknow, because you were silly enough to ask one question and Ahmin responds with a short response and your mind stupidly 180'd on Shirley in an instant because you don't know her that well--it's funny you try to take credit for her now as an example. Then you immediately call them "goons" and imply they aren't good opera singers (don't try to pussyfoot around this as well, you were clearly implying it). This proves that I was right all along, from the start I came at you for using their info and disrespecting them, we spent too much time arguing about it with you denying it. Yet what happened just now? You just brought their capabilities up with no relevance to what I was saying and tried to discredit them and insult them with absolutely no rebuttal to the things they say. Pure ad hominem, I don't complain when you insult me and when I insult you because I always give a proper response afterwards--you did not. See, you're a pussyfooter. That's what I've noticed all along, you waste my time denying things with your silly "oh no i didn't say this or imply this! I would never! so dishonest and slandering me!" and because you're emotional you completely gave yourself away. Oh you're a fan of Sinatra now? Alexa play "I've Got You Under My Skin".

You're done for after this exchange. I can't even find your videos anymore on Sohyang, you set them on private or something and it's because you all the info off of TiO and now you've publicly insulted them under the same breath. What are you gonna now, in your future comments/videos? Everyone knows how fake and dishonest you are, if they didn't already. You gonna talk about chest coordination some more? Using "clarity" in the way that TiO uses it? Tongue retraction? Feel free to conveniently avoid all this though. Have fun knowing you spent hours making videos on this stuff and arguing, mostly because of a teenager who loves Sohyang which you even admitted yourself that you don't have time for or whatever anymore. Even within this debate you try to make points about vocals using info from TiO and then somehow insult them in the same post, who is moronic enough to do such a thing? 😂 Have fun showing your face in the future around here or youtube with people seeing how you did that and publicly insulted them. I hope your 1 or 2 fans that support TiO and thought you were smart can see this.

You even desperately try to come at me for being "not very good" at opera, an extremely high bar is set in opera so we don't go around using "advanced" loosely the way you do with your little sopranos who live in the fourth octave/tenor range and have no idea how to sing up to G5, much less even attempt it. If you think bringing up mEtRoPoLiTaN oPerA singers is important, I already told you I have a professor that is currently one and friends that go to Juilliard, since you like to assume that having "prestige" in opera is everything. I'm seeing them in 2 hours and 15 minutes, and I know their opinion on my classical singing. Meanwhile you'll be at your keyboard, being a self-proclaimed intellectual on vocals while taking a whole 25 years to figure out you're a tenor and not a baritone. Remember how you told us you've basically figured all of "pop" technique out? If TiO are a bunch of goons with no real careers, what does that make you when all your attempts at assessments this past year have all info ripped off of them while you insult them? I can do this forever.

 

Edited by C.Y.
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14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

yeah no one cares since Kay was "not very good" at all, can't even keep the same technique she intended up to D5 and had a tessitura that didn't even exceed the fourth octave 😂 Similar to a lot of the singers you bring up, Ethel Merman and Song Changsik (who can't even sustain anything in a remotely difficult tenor tessitura and can't even sing lower/mid without heavy constriction), Betty Buckley and LSH (both sopranos who can't even remotely come near the G5 area in passable modern pop technique, let alone with their intended chest coordination), YHE (lol), Elaine Paige. You get zero credit for learning Shirley Bassey off of TiO who you need to namedrop all the time now because you lack examples. By the way I don't blame some of those singers, musical theater for women really didn't have a difficult tessitura. One of the only singers who is incidentally advanced is Barbra, but you can literally walk down the street and ask anyone if Barbra, Whitney, Mariah, and other famous and respected female singers were good and they'd say yes. You were simply lucky a tiny portion of the singers you brought up are advanced at what they do, the others are "not very good". A lot of them barely even "not very good" seeing as how I was lenient and said Merman was at best intermediate, some not even close to being "not very good", like Song Changsik. Believe me when I say I could have been much more harshly worded on some of your singers for having a serious lack of range, no attempts at singing in a difficult tessitura and inconsistency throughout the mid and/or above it.

The most cringey part of your examples is how most of these singers have no relevance to the type of singing people discuss in the online community 😐 so you're not even right that they are skilled enough to talk about, but also no one listens to them or wants to sound like them...you've really been wasting your time comparing them to the pop singers people talk about. 

Oh, conveniently dodged, again. You did explain, and your explanation along with your pure ad hominem at TiO is that opera is high art, and so you implied we should assume singers at the Met are highly skilled. You'll try to deny this, but this implication is clear as day. By the way, the pop singers you criticize like Whitney, Naul, Kyuhyun, David Phelps, Beyoncé aren't autotuned live so your response was irrelevant, your ad hominem at TiO was both dumb and hypocritical. You realize you saying "fine" to my response up there without a rebuttal means that what you implied about singing at the Met was wrong, right? And that your attack on TiO was plain stupid? I don't know if you caught on. But the main point, for the millionth time, is you ripping information off of TiO and then insulting them elsewhere and just now right here under the same breath. You brought up Shirley Bassey 10 times the last few days with TONGUE RETRACTION as a positive, a singer you only started using BECAUSE of TiO. Yknow, because you were silly enough to ask one question and Ahmin responds with a short response and your mind stupidly 180'd on Shirley in an instant because you don't know her that well--it's funny you try to take credit for her now as an example. Then you immediately call them "goons" and imply they aren't good opera singers (don't try to pussyfoot around this as well, you were clearly implying it). This proves that I was right all along, from the start I came at you for using their info and disrespecting them, we spent too much time arguing about it with you denying it. Yet what happened just now? You just brought their capabilities up with no relevance to what I was saying and tried to discredit them and insult them with absolutely no rebuttal to the things they say. Pure ad hominem, I don't complain when you insult me and when I insult you because I always give a proper response afterwards--you did not. See, you're a pussyfooter. That's what I've noticed all along, you waste my time denying things with your silly "oh no i didn't say this or imply this! I would never! so dishonest and slandering me!" and because you're emotional you completely gave yourself away. Oh you're a fan of Sinatra now? Alexa play "I've Got You Under My Skin".

You're done for after this exchange. I can't even find your videos anymore on Sohyang, you set them on private or something and it's because you all the info off of TiO and now you've publicly insulted them under the same breath. What are you gonna now, in your future comments/videos? Everyone knows how fake and dishonest you are, if they didn't already. You gonna talk about chest coordination some more? Using "clarity" in the way that TiO uses it? Tongue retraction? Feel free to conveniently avoid all this though. Have fun knowing you spent hours making videos on this stuff and arguing, mostly because of a teenager who loves Sohyang which you even admitted yourself that you don't have time for or whatever anymore. Even within this debate you try to make points about vocals using info from TiO and then somehow insult them in the same post, who is moronic enough to do such a thing? 😂 Have fun showing your face in the future around here or youtube with people seeing how you did that and publicly insulted them. I hope your 1 or 2 fans that support TiO and thought you were smart can see this.

You even desperately try to come at me for being "not very good" at opera, an extremely high bar is set in opera so we don't go around using "advanced" loosely the way you do with your little sopranos who live in the fourth octave/tenor range and have no idea how to sing up to G5, much less even attempt it. If you think bringing up mEtRoPoLiTaN oPerA singers is important, I already told you I have a professor that is currently one and friends that go to Juilliard, since you like to assume that having "prestige" in opera is everything. I'm seeing them in 2 hours and 15 minutes, and I know their opinion on my classical singing. Meanwhile you'll be at your keyboard, being a self-proclaimed intellectual on vocals while taking a whole 25 years to figure out you're a tenor and not a baritone. Remember how you told us you've basically figured all of "pop" technique out? If TiO are a bunch of goons with no real careers, what does that make you when all your attempts at assessments this past year have all info ripped off of them while you insult them? I can do this forever.

 

Lol, and Kay's style didn't intend her to sing that high, so if you're not going to criticize style, then stop. But you want to bait me so badly that your hypocrisy is on display, lol. LSH and Betty aren't trying for G5 in "passable" modern technique (which is a very broad term under the style argument; I know for a fact some styles and singers stress D5 as being "money" notes), and you know that. And just to say--you have no idea what their "intended" coordination is. They may be doing exactly what they want to. So, again, what a stupid thing to say. You can be as harsh as you want, lol, but you'll show your hypocrisy when you do. 

Nothing's been dodged. You just can't accept or don't understand my reasoning. That's on you and any low IQ and inferiority issues you may be having. I'm over coddling your narcissism and being led into rabbit holes so you can distract everyone from the main points. And here's the thing, if you had any critical thinking skills, you would realize that me being wrong about needing technique in modern opera doesn't change anything. It's a complete side-point to the fact that I'm not conflating technique and popularity. 

The only emotion I have right now is humor. Honestly. Because I believe what I'm saying is true--you're a charlatan and a quack, and the singing you posted wasn't very good. You want to berate singers like Ethel then say your teacher sounds like her. You post any type of nonsense that makes you look good at any given time, but you come across as pathetic to me, and it's honestly reached the point that it's kind of funny. You keep trying to discredit me over and over, again, just to hide the fact that you aren't a very good singer by your own training and admission. Nothing you say about me or the singers I like changes that. 

Yeah, I did a 180 on liking Shirley and being impressed when Ahmin told me she had a lot going wrong and that she was worse than LSH. But let's not berate him. When TiO gave me reason to believe that Ahmin was wrong, I said to myself, well dang, I heard it right the first time. Your point is? Lol. It's called learning. I've said that several times, but the idea that someone can learn and be right just doesn't register in your mind. 

"I've Got You Under My Skin" must be a favorite of yours because you can't seem to shake me. You stalk my YouTube videos and even monitored the thread looking for me. You're obsessive. Again, that's pathetic. 

Yeah, I wasted my time comparing them to singers people don't want to talk about while you literally drop opera singers no one's ever heard of and even modern opera singers don't want to sound like. But, yeah, cool. Let's just put our blinders on here. Then when people suggest that talking about opera is making their vocal discussions seem unimportant, you get all prissy about it. But yeah, keep on being a hypocrite. Lol I don't know how dumb you think we are to fall for this gag, but I can tell you for sure that I'm not. But, you're right. That does make me cringe.

Again, you're the only one who's hung up on some weird sort of expectation of how I should treat the people from TiO. I do think many of them are goons who don't post their own singing. That has nothing to do with them being right in what they hear. I can respect one and not the other. I think they are nasty people--like you--who berate and demean others, often in an attempt to make themselves feel better. They troll opera singers' videos on YouTube to tell them how awful they are, how their teachers are wasting their potential, and how they would be oh-so-much better if they would just spend some money on Jeremy Silver. I don't respect that, and no matter how much you think I should, I don't. I hope that clears it up for you--though I'm sure it won't because you've got some deluded idea of what respect is in your head. Not to mention that you've somehow conflated respect and intellect in the same breath, showcasing your own lack of understanding. Put simply, respecting their knowledge and their antics/behavior are two very different things. 

I took the Sohyang videos down (nice to see you obsessing over me again; how long did you look for them?) after finding a Jeremy Silver goon comment on Andrew Owens' opera singing video and thought that I was doing much the same trolling with those videos. I felt they were made uncomfortably close in the spirit of a behavior I didn't condone and did not want to be associated with on my channel. I do think the videos were immature and wrong in presentation. That's why I took them down if you just had to know. It had nothing to do with the accuracy or information in them. 

I'm sure you can do this forever because you have no life. Call it ripped from them if you want. I call it learning, and it's something you apparently were never that good at. Maybe if you understood your teachers better and knew how to practice more, you'd be better at singing. Sadly for us, you're not. You can know their opinion all you want. The only information I need is that you, yourself, in all your glory, have said you're just intermediate. And for the final time, nothing you've said about me will change that. 

What a joke. I'm done with this unless you've actually got something to say. 

 

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11 hours ago, KoreaxxLove said:

Lol, and Kay's style didn't intend her to sing that high, so if you're not going to criticize style, then stop. But you want to bait me so badly that your hypocrisy is on display, lol. LSH and Betty aren't trying for G5 in "passable" modern technique (which is a very broad term under the style argument; I know for a fact some styles and singers stress D5 as being "money" notes), and you know that. And just to say--you have no idea what their "intended" coordination is. They may be doing exactly what they want to. So, again, what a stupid thing to say. You can be as harsh as you want, lol, but you'll show your hypocrisy when you do. 

Betty couldn't try for a G5 if she wanted, seeing as how we have no idea what she was intending /sarcasm when she was being inconsistent on D5/Eb5 given how her singing is usually performed well up to C5 with the same technique 100% of the time. 

Next you're gonna argue that every technician in any sport might intentionally lose or perform worse, I mean omg who knows?? Every time I shoot a basketball and miss I certainly intend to, it'd take a god complex to assume otherwise! /s You can argue all you want that I'm just inferring what they intend to do but it'd be kind of silly.

let's talk about Kay Thompson for a moment. First of all, Mahalia Jackson had ONE voice lesson and was mostly self-taught, I know you didn't claim she was her main teacher but you keep associating big names and talking about her pedagogically so it is safe to assume you think she does real work on them. But do you seriously think whitebread Kay Thompson did any real work on one of the most influential black singers in Gospel music?  No tf she did not, take a seat John Smith. 😂 Jackson used a lot of growling too done by old gospel or blues singers, she grew up in church being influenced by other black singers and listened to some opera like Caruso. 

Page 461 https://books.google.com/books?id=UZx2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT491&lpg=PT491&dq=mahalia+jackson+voice+lesson+in+nyc&source=bl&ots=3joZwCa9Nf&sig=ACfU3U2qOnHg2bvwrtDUrHD3lP_c7PunHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwibioGgtKLmAhXIwFkKHWlQCmMQ6AEwFHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=mahalia jackson voice lesson in nyc&f=false

you sound like people who actually think Seth Riggs was hugely responsible for Sohyang with a few voice lessons, and Seth Riggs is associated for "working with" Streisand. Let's talk about Seth Riggs now too then?

Frank Sinatra's first teacher was John Quinlan, who was a singer at your favorite place in the world--the Met. Sinatra even co-wrote a book on singing technique with him. I have no way of knowing how much work either Quinlan or Thompson really did on Sinatra but I'm willing to bet Quinlan played the much bigger part. I even heard Seth MacFarlane, Sinatra and Streisand had the same teachers at one point, some sort of couple who taught? Who knows, they worked with a lot of people. 

http://www.jazzsingers.com/TipsOnPopularSinging/

I noticed you took the videos down because I JUST checked it yesterday to remind myself of the exact singers you've brought up recently, so I can write the first part of my post. 😂 Why do you tell me about TiO's behavior? I've mentioned that I trust literally ONE person above all from their channel, which isn't Silver btw because I feel like you thought it was with you bringing him up randomly. I even specifically mentioned all their new followers who talk about pop are obnoxious, well some of them seemed to have gone quiet now. The rest of them making videos are not wrong with information is all I'm saying. I don't even know who most of them are, but I'm sure Silver probably has them on his channel or even if not, you can look at his channel and see how his singers sing. I also never disagreed that their behavior could be improved, I even mentioned that to you. If anything offending people just pushes people away from their videos and I've always thought that. But a bunch of mean people who say good information is better than nice people that say wrong information when it comes to vocals nowadays, if I'm going to be honest. They haven't insulted anyone's mother or kicked anyone's dog yet, I don't think. 

again, you're angry enough to the point that you refuse to acknowledge what it means to be intermediate in opera compared to uhhhhhhhh the "advanced" stuff you bring up in classic musical theater. There's a big skill gap in opera and the sopranos you bring up living in the 4th octave would be described differently if I was as angry as you, but I'm not. I'm too level-headed with what I know about opera and how the bar is set to be offended by your desperate attempts to play word-games and pussyfoot around giving me a proper assessment of what is "not very good" in my chest coordination. What, you don't wanna play a fancy game of degrees of constriction and coordination with me anymore, it's just a word game now? The point isn't to show some incredible operatic skill, because we weren't talking about opera? We're talking about regular ol' chest coordination the singers you like use, and I clearly know how to judge your "not very good" singers better than you because you were too busy as a tenor thinking you were a baritone and humble bragging about your "supported F#4s". The point here is that you're wrong about what you bring up as being impressive. You can call my singing unimpressive if it helps you sleep at night, because my level of "not very good" can judge the level of "not very good" in your singers--you cannot. It wouldn't change the fact that all you've been doing all these years with your countless hours of wasted time is bringing up mostly unimpressive singers to impressive modern pop singers. 😂 You'll still try to avoid this though, of course and waste time thinking I'll get offended with you pussyfooting around with word games on my singing. Again, you think a thick and throaty Song Changsik is way more advanced and less constricted than any male pop singer brought up, kind of self-explanatory at this point. No in-depth assessment on why that is either? You don't trust my rankings on most of your singers or any of the ones people bring up in the pop community but all of a sudden you trust me and you refuse to assess my singing in regards to the "not very good" singers you talk about? Stay angry about it.

You did insult their intellect, do you think I would be here criticizing you if you just took the information and respected their knowledge at least? Look at how the blog used to work, people took the info but they were not personally attacking Ahmin's knowledge. But of course you NEED to conveniently avoid discussing this sad behavior on your part. I even told you you're the only person I'm coming for, call it whatever you want, I didn't deny it. obsessive blah blah, but you do that with teenagers. I'm doing this with a grown man who has been in the community for years and it takes no effort out of me. I'm doing the community a favor since everyone else is just avoiding you because you're boring *shrug*

I don't conflate respect with intellect, you attacked them for having "no real careers". Who in the history of that phrase being used has meant it in any way other than to attack someone's intellect or ability in what they do, you moron? 😂 It is the same as calling someone an armchair expert, in other words a person who doesn't know what the real "experts" know. It IS about intellect. Not only that, you brought TiO/Silver up to further attempt a point about my intellect in relation to my singing ability and how me posting singing was similar to what they do, which you've been going on for a few posts now. See, this is what people with half a brain like to call a basic deduction. Feel free to pussyfoot your way around this though with some more word games.

Again, blaming Ahmin for Shirley. Aren't you supposed to be smarter than him or so you think? I never said you can't learn and be right lmao, I'm saying you're lucky with what you're right on and then insult the intellect of the people you learn from. Read the first part of my post again. The average person knows Whitney and Mariah were good but do they know why? You never knew WHY is what I'm saying. You simply brought up a bunch of singers and a tiny portion of these famous divas would obviously be able to sing to an advanced degree. 

Edited by C.Y.
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2 minutes ago, C.Y. said:

Betty couldn't try for a G5 if she wanted, seeing as how we have no idea what she was intending when she was being inconsistent on D5/Eb5 given how her singing is usually performed well up to C5 with the same technique 100% of the time. /sarcasm 

Next you're gonna argue that every technician in any sport might intentionally lose or perform worse, I mean omg who knows?? Every time I shoot a basketball and miss I certainly intend to, it'd take a god complex to assume otherwise! /s You can argue all you want that I'm just inferring what they intend to do but it'd be kind of silly.

let's talk about Kay Thompson for a moment. First of all, Mahalia Jackson had ONE voice lesson and was mostly self-taught, I know you didn't claim she was her main teacher but you keep associating big names and talking about her pedagogically so it is safe to assume you think she does real work on them. But do you seriously think whitebread Kay Thompson did any real work on one of the most influential black singers in Gospel music?  No tf she did not, take a seat John Smith. 😂 Jackson used a lot of growling too done by old gospel or blues singers, she grew up in church being influenced by other black singers and listened to some opera like Caruso. 

Page 461 https://books.google.com/books?id=UZx2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT491&lpg=PT491&dq=mahalia+jackson+voice+lesson+in+nyc&source=bl&ots=3joZwCa9Nf&sig=ACfU3U2qOnHg2bvwrtDUrHD3lP_c7PunHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwibioGgtKLmAhXIwFkKHWlQCmMQ6AEwFHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=mahalia jackson voice lesson in nyc&f=false

you sound like people who actually think Seth Riggs was hugely responsible for Sohyang with a few voice lessons, and Seth Riggs is associated for "working with" Streisand. Let's talk about Seth Riggs now too then?

Frank Sinatra's first teacher was John Quinlan, who was a singer at your favorite place in the world--the Met. Sinatra even co-wrote a book on singing technique with him. I have no way of knowing how much work either Quinlan or Thompson really did on Sinatra but I'm willing to bet Quinton played the much bigger part. I even heard Seth MacFarlane, Sinatra and Streisand had the same teachers at one point, some sort of couple who taught? Who knows, they worked with a lot of people. 

http://www.jazzsingers.com/TipsOnPopularSinging/

I noticed you took the videos down because I JUST checked it yesterday to remind myself of the exact singers you've brought up recently, so I can write the first part of my post. 😂 Why do you tell me about TiO's behavior? I've mentioned that I trust literally ONE person above all from their channel, which isn't Silver btw because I feel like you thought it was with you bringing him up randomly. I even specifically mentioned all their new followers who talk about pop are obnoxious, well some of them seemed to have gone quiet now. The rest of them making videos are not wrong with information is all I'm saying. I don't even know who most of them are, but I'm sure Silver probably has them on his channel or even if not, you can look at his channel and see how his singers sing. I also never disagreed that their behavior could be improved, I even mentioned that to you. If anything offending people just pushes people away from their videos and I've always thought that. But a bunch of mean people who say good information is better than nice people that say wrong information when it comes to vocals nowadays, if I'm going to be honest. They haven't insulted anyone's mother or kicked anyone's dog yet, I don't think. 

again, you're angry enough to the point that you refuse to acknowledge what it means to be intermediate in opera compared to uhhhhhhhh the "advanced" stuff you bring up in classic musical theater. There's a big skill gap in opera and the sopranos you bring up living in the 4th octave would be described differently if I was as angry as you, but I'm not. I'm too level-headed with what I know about opera and how the bar is set to be offended by your desperate attempts to play word-games and pussyfoot around giving me a proper assessment of what is "not very good" in my chest coordination. What, you don't wanna play a fancy game of degrees of constriction and coordination with me anymore, it's just a word game now? The point isn't to show some incredible operatic skill, because we weren't talking about opera? We're talking about regular ol' chest coordination the singers you like use, and I clearly know how to judge your "not very good" singers better than you because you were too busy as a tenor thinking you were a baritone and humble bragging about your "supported F#4s". The point here is that you're wrong about what you bring up as being impressive. You can call my singing unimpressive if it helps you sleep at night, because my level of "not very good" can judge the level of "not very good" in your singers--you cannot. It wouldn't change the fact that all you've been doing all these years with your countless hours of wasted time is bringing up mostly unimpressive singers to impressive modern pop singers. 😂 You'll still try to avoid this though, of course and waste time thinking I'll get offended with you pussyfooting around with word games on my singing. Again, you think a thick and throaty Song Changsik is way more advanced and less constricted than any male pop singer brought up, kind of self-explanatory at this point. No in-depth assessment on why that is either? You don't trust my rankings on most of your singers or any of the ones people bring up in the pop community but all of a sudden you trust me and you refuse to assess my singing in regards to the "not very good" singers you talk about? Stay angry about it.

You did insult their intellect, do you think I would be here criticizing you if you just took the information and respected their knowledge at least? Look at how the blog used to work, people took the info but they were not personally attacking Ahmin's knowledge. But of course you NEED to conveniently avoid discussing this sad behavior on your part. I even told you you're the only person I'm coming for, call it whatever you want, I didn't deny it. obsessive blah blah, but you do that with teenagers. I'm doing this with a grown man who has been in the community for years and it takes no effort out of me. I'm doing the community a favor since everyone else is just avoiding you because you're boring *shrug*

I don't conflate respect with intellect, you attacked them for having "no real careers". Who in the history of that phrase being used has meant it in any way other than to attack someone's intellect or ability in what they do, you moron? 😂 It is the same as calling someone an armchair expert, in other words a person who doesn't know what the real "experts" know. It IS about intellect. Not only that, you brought TiO/Silver up to further attempt a point about my intellect in relation to my singing ability and how me posting singing was similar to what they do, which you've been going on for a few posts now. See, this is what people with half a brain like to call a basic deduction. Feel free to pussyfoot your way around this though with some more word games.

Again, blaming Ahmin for Shirley. Aren't you supposed to be smarter than him or so you think? I never said you can't learn and be right lmao, I'm saying you're lucky with what you're right on and then insult the intellect of the people you learn from. Read the first part of my post again. The average person knows Whitney and Mariah were good but do they know why? You never knew WHY is what I'm saying. You simply brought up a bunch of singers and a tiny portion of these famous divas would obviously be able to sing to an advanced degree. 

What an imbecilic reply. Keeping this super short because none of this is relevant.

Are you that dumb, or are you hoping others are? I'm not saying they intend to be inconsistent. I'm saying that they may intend to sing in a style that doesn't prioritize notes past that range and don't care if they hit G5s in "passable modern technique."

Kay worked with Mahalia and had problems with her singing [that were corrected before her performance according to Mahalia's own biography]. That's why I mention it. And where are you getting the stupid idea that I'm suggesting she worked with her extensively when it's clear from my post that the two did not like each other? 50 IQ. Sinatra said Kay taught him everything he knew about singing, and they remained very close to the point that Kay's biography notes that everyone who knew Sinatra knew Kay had a strange pull over him. She was obviously very influential on Judy Garland, and became Liza's godmother. She worked with, taught, and had a relationship with Andy Williams too. But if you really did your research and knew what you were talking about, you'd know that. Completely ridiculous. 

But, I'm not going to argue this. This argument has never been about Kay Thompson. Only a fool would think has been.

Silver himself participates in the same behavior. But while we're on Silver, let's just drop the bomb that he's said Lara, Sohyang etc. are worse than young Celine! Care to enlighten him, Mr. Crusader?

No, I don't care to have a degrees of constriction argument with you because it's pointless. We've been there and done that, and at the end of the day, I stand by my assessments on modern pop singers. The same singers I didn't like before TiO, I still don't like now much for the same reasons. Anyone can go and read my past comments--which I did last night, by the way--and can see that I've always had a problem with deficient chest registers, etc. I'm saying much the same now but just have a deeper understanding of it. By the way, I still said Shirley was very good, so the idea I did a 180 on her is false. 

I'm so boring you just keep coming back for more. 

Let me explain it to you. I thought I put it simply enough last time, but I guess not. Their ability to hear can exceed their own grasp of technique and ability. You've said as such yourself. I can draw a line in respecting their knowledge but questioning their personal abilities when they refuse to post their own singing while claiming to be experts. 

To say that I've just gotten lucky is ridiculous and not worth dignifying. Also, to change my opinion years ago because I respected Ahmin's knowledge and experience has nothing to do with thinking I am smarter or better than he is. I mean, c'mon, at least he sings well in his style. And that's more than anyone can say about you. 

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29 minutes ago, KoreaxxLove said:

What an imbecilic reply. Keeping this super short because none of this is relevant.

Are you that dumb, or are you hoping others are? I'm not saying they intend to be inconsistent. I'm saying that they may intend to sing in a style that doesn't prioritize notes past that range and don't care if they hit G5s in "passable modern technique."

Kay worked with Mahalia and had problems with her singing [that were corrected before her performance according to Mahalia's own biography]. That's why I mention it. And where are you getting the stupid idea that I'm suggesting she worked with her extensively when it's clear from my post that the two did not like each other? 50 IQ. Sinatra said Kay taught him everything he knew about singing, and they remained very close to the point that Kay's biography notes that everyone who knew Sinatra knew Kay had a strange pull over him. She was obviously very influential on Judy Garland, and became Liza's godmother. She worked with, taught, and had a relationship with Andy Williams too. But if you really did your research and knew what you were talking about, you'd know that. Completely ridiculous. 

But, I'm not going to argue this. This argument has never been about Kay Thompson. Only a fool would think has been.

Silver himself participates in the same behavior. But while we're on Silver, let's just drop the bomb that he's said Lara, Sohyang etc. are worse than young Celine! Care to enlighten him, Mr. Crusader?

No, I don't care to have a degrees of constriction argument with you because it's pointless. We've been there and done that, and at the end of the day, I stand by my assessments on modern pop singers. The same singers I didn't like before TiO, I still don't like now much for the same reasons. Anyone can go and read my past comments--which I did last night, by the way--and can see that I've always had a problem with deficient chest registers, etc. I'm saying much the same now but just have a deeper understanding of it. By the way, I still said Shirley was very good, so the idea I did a 180 on her is false. 

I'm so boring you just keep coming back for more. 

Let me explain it to you. I thought I put it simply enough last time, but I guess not. Their ability to hear can exceed their own grasp of technique and ability. You've said as such yourself. I can draw a line in respecting their knowledge but questioning their personal abilities when they refuse to post their own singing while claiming to be experts. 

To say that I've just gotten lucky is ridiculous and not worth dignifying. Also, to change my opinion years ago because I respected Ahmin's knowledge and experience has nothing to do with thinking I am smarter or better than he is. I mean, c'mon, at least he sings well in his style. And that's more than anyone can say about you. 

I don't disagree, it's not about Kay Thompson but you've been bringing her up and I just needed to educate you on the reality of it. Sohyang also had lovely things to say about Riggs, honestly everyone would if questioned about someone they worked with just for proper etiquette. I didn't say that you said she worked with Jackson extensively, you should read it again. I said you think it's important enough to bring up in regards to Kay's pedagogy, and it isn't because Jackson was self-taught.

what does what Silver thinks about pop singers have to do with me? He thinks James Ingram was one of the best technical non-classical singers, I don't know man. What does this have to do with what I'm saying? I think he judges pop singers partially in a subjective manner based on his music taste while others make more sense using a classical perspective. He thinks Sohyang isn't good, so? From a strict classical perspective most aren't, it doesn't change the fact that modern pop singers are impressive in their own right--and Silver has praised the technique of prime Steve Perry and Peabo Bryson, etc. So there is an inconsistency that I don't understand and is also irrelevant to what I'm saying.

yes you're right we can all read that the same singers you didn't like before you still think the same, like Whitney Houston who you claimed had issues on a C5. 

Oh look, still avoiding the important fact that "singing well" or being "intermediate" in classical is not the same as other styles. That's why you've been here for years, haven't you? Because you don't agree with people's opinion, such as the pop community, on what "singing well" or being "good" means and you would never deny that standards are different depending on who you're asking. Yet you're playing word games now and refusing to explain by YOUR own insightful assessment why I'm not more fit to judge your singers than you are? Conveniently and cowardly avoiding the fact that being intermediate in classical doesn't mean you're straining everything after a certain range like the way the pop community describes "proficient" or whatever. Still very desperate and ignoring the fact that I showed enough "not very good" ability to judge your singers better than you can. Call it "not very good" all you want, it is enough to know more about chest coordination than you pretend to with your sopranos who can't sing past a C5 consistently or your Song Changsiks. Still desperate enough to use plain ad hominem with no rebuttal whatsoever of how me singing in chest coordination is enough to tell you you've been wrong all these years. You'd know more about your own singers if you sang more instead of humble bragging about "supported F#4s" as a fake "baritone".

You really WANT me to be offended here, don't you? Like you're trying your hardest here but experience and actual study gives you a level-headedness about reality, something you wouldn't understand. For the umpteenth time, I don't need to be "very good". Because the majority of the singers you bring up aren't, so I only need to be "mediocre" enough to judge your "mediocre" singers with much greater accuracy than you 😂 

Now for the final time, are you not going to explain why SCS would be better than Naul and David Phelps, which was your latest claim? Because if not we can see that you're a waste of time now, pussyfooting around and being a coward.

Edited by C.Y.
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59 minutes ago, C.Y. said:

I don't disagree, it's not about Kay Thompson but you've been bringing her up and I just needed to educate you on the reality of it. Sohyang also had lovely things to say about Riggs, honestly everyone would if questioned about someone they worked with just for proper etiquette. I didn't say that you said she worked with Jackson extensively, you should read it again. I said you think it's important enough to bring up in regards to Kay's pedagogy, and it isn't because Jackson was self-taught.

what does what Silver thinks about pop singers have to do with me? He thinks James Ingram was one of the best technical non-classical singers, I don't know man. What does this have to do with what I'm saying? I think he judges pop singers partially in a subjective manner based on his music taste while others make more sense using a classical perspective. He thinks Sohyang isn't good, so? From a strict classical perspective most aren't, it doesn't change the fact that modern pop singers are impressive in their own right--and Silver has praised the technique of prime Steve Perry and Peabo Bryson, etc. So there is an inconsistency that I don't understand and is also irrelevant to what I'm saying.

yes you're right we can all read that the same singers you didn't like before you still think the same, like Whitney Houston who you claimed had issues on a C5. 

Oh look, still avoiding the important fact that "singing well" or being "intermediate" in classical is not the same as other styles. That's why you've been here for years, haven't you? Because you don't agree with people's opinion, such as the pop community, on what "singing well" or being "good" means and you would never deny that standards are different depending on who you're asking. Yet you're playing word games now and refusing to explain by YOUR own insightful assessment why I'm not more fit to judge your singers than you are? Conveniently and cowardly avoiding the fact that being intermediate in classical doesn't mean you're straining everything after a certain range like the way the pop community describes "proficient" or whatever. Still very desperate and ignoring the fact that I showed enough "not very good" ability to judge your singers better than you can. Call it "not very good" all you want, it is enough to know more about chest coordination than you pretend to with your sopranos who can't sing past a C5 consistently or your Song Changsiks. Still desperate enough to use plain ad hominem with no rebuttal whatsoever of how me singing in chest coordination is enough to tell you you've been wrong all these years. You'd know more about your own singers if you sang more instead of humble bragging about "supported F#4s" as a fake "baritone".

You really WANT me to be offended here, don't you? Like you're trying your hardest here but experience and actual study gives you a level-headedness about reality, something you wouldn't understand. For the umpteenth time, I don't need to be "very good". Because the majority of the singers you bring up aren't, so I only need to be "mediocre" enough to judge your "mediocre" singers with much greater accuracy than you 😂 

Now for the final time, are you not going to explain why SCS would be better than Naul and David Phelps, which was your latest claim? Because if not we can see that you're a waste of time now, pussyfooting around and being a coward.

I'll keep this short. SEC championship game is soon, and it should be a good one. Well, my money's on LSU winning by quite a lot (and I hope they do), but being from Georgia and going to UGA, I won't be upset if they pull off the upset. 

That being said, you can't win for losing. You said that I suggested Kay did "real work" with Mahalia; any significant vocal training would be extensive. Who are you trying to kid? Certainly not me. There's no reason to tell me Mahalia was self-taught, lol. I've been reading her biography for about two weeks. I'm well aware of that. 

It has everything to do with you when the grand maestro of your style disagrees with your assessments of pop vocals and actually is more in line with my thinking, yet you only choose to crusade against me. Lol

Whitney's not been perfect on every C5, and I still think she had her issues, Mr. "Barbra Streisand is shouty and shouldn't be compared to Lara, but is suddenly now advanced that she's made an appearance in a TiO video." Yeah, we remember what you said, too. The truth is that the singers I didn't like--namely Sohyang and Lara and Beyonce--aren't any better to me than they were before. We all know what I'm saying--don't try to twist your way out of it because it shows your hypocrisy again.

I'm not avoiding that at all. I've addressed that already--you suddenly want to draw a line between intermediate/advanced chest coordination in pop and opera when before pop singers were intermediate at best because they weren't opera. It's just another example of you shifting the style argument to make someone--in this case you--look better while making others look worse. I'm not fooled by you.

I'm not sure why you want to keep bringing up these sopranos who can't sing in that style past C5 consistently or SCS? I like some of sopranos and mezzos who can, and the ones who can't, as you've already mentioned, are just different forms of constriction than the other modern pop singers who can't sing in this style at all. We've covered that. Try to keep up

That's quite an excuse for not being very good, isn't it? Lol. Look, whatever helps you sleep at night, but the reality is that you haven't been able to put any of your knowledge to good use. I guess that's what happens when your teachers mistype your voice and sing like "intermediate at best" singers in pop. Embarrassing

Lol, no, I'm not going to. We've already had that argument. You know that. Anyone reading this should know that. I've already told you--I'm done arguing with a charlatan and a quack who doesn't sing well at all by his own admission while parading as an expert who demeans others. That's been your gimmick for a while, and my only hope is that other people are starting to realize that now. 

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1 minute ago, KoreaxxLove said:

I'll keep this short. SEC championship game is soon, and it should be a good one. Well, my money's on LSU winning by quite a lot (and I hope they do), but being from Georgia and going to UGA, I won't be upset if they pull off the upset. 

That being said, you can't win for losing. You said that I suggested Kay did "real work" with Mahalia; any significant vocal training would be extensive. Who are you trying to kid? Certainly not me. There's no reason to tell me Mahalia was self-taught, lol. I've been reading her biography for about two weeks. I'm well aware of that. 

It has everything to do with you when the grand maestro of your style disagrees with your assessments of pop vocals and actually is more in line with my thinking, yet you only choose to crusade against me. Lol

Whitney's not been perfect on every C5, and I still think she had her issues, Mr. "Barbra Streisand is shouty and shouldn't be compared to Lara, but is suddenly now advanced that she's made an appearance in a TiO video." Yeah, we remember what you said, too. The truth is that the singers I didn't like--namely Sohyang and Lara and Beyonce--aren't any better to me than they were before. We all know what I'm saying--don't try to twist your way out of it because it shows your hypocrisy again.

I'm not avoiding that at all. I've addressed that already--you suddenly want to draw a line between intermediate/advanced chest coordination in pop and opera when before pop singers were intermediate at best because they weren't opera. It's just another example of you shifting the style argument to make someone--in this case you--look better while making others look worse. I'm not fooled by you.

I'm not sure why you want to keep bringing up these sopranos who can't sing in that style past C5 consistently or SCS? I like some of sopranos and mezzos who can, and the ones who can't, as you've already mentioned, are just different forms of constriction than the other modern pop singers who can't sing in this style at all. We've covered that. Try to keep up

That's quite an excuse for not being very good, isn't it? Lol. Look, whatever helps you sleep at night, but the reality is that you haven't been able to put any of your knowledge to good use. I guess that's what happens when your teachers mistype your voice and sing like "intermediate at best" singers in pop. Embarrassing. Then you want to make an absurd case about who's more fit to judge (argument from authority) while claiming that's not your intention. And it quite clearly is, lol. And again, you're attempting to boil all of this down to chest coordination, as if both styles having a certain type of chest coordination to an extent suddenly makes them comparable. 

Lol, no, I'm not going to. We've already had that argument. You know that. Anyone reading this should know that. I've already told you--I'm done arguing with a charlatan and a quack who doesn't sing well at all by his own admission while parading as an expert who demeans others. That's been your gimmick for a while, and my only hope is that other people are starting to realize that now. 

 

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1 hour ago, KoreaxxLove said:

Lol, no, I'm not going to. We've already had that argument. You know that. Anyone reading this should know that. I've already told you--I'm done arguing with a charlatan and a quack who doesn't sing well at all by his own admission while parading as an expert who demeans others. That's been your gimmick for a while, and my only hope is that other people are starting to realize that now. 

i''m watching sports/boxing right now too but responding to you is pretty easy. unfortunately for you most people won't see anything you're trying to say, because you've been on the front page/first post of this thread under "mistrusted users" for years and still are in the eyes of the community. Reality of my knowledge? I showed you chest coordination clips of 2-3 months into training from 2015 that is "not very good", just like the "not very good" singers you bring up who were at least a decade to decades older than me when I recorded those clips. Meanwhile, you're not anything...? 😂

That's my point with Kay...you CAN'T do "real work" in that short time, so what even is the point of you bringing her up and namedropping Mahalia Jackson? You just made yourself look dumber here, why mention her along with those singers then if you agree she didn't do anything significant? For what? To make her seem more important when she's a "not very good" singer, as you've always done with your legion of "not very good" singers?

Silver would never agree with what you say is advanced other than a tiny portion of singers like Streisand. He'd think you were a complete moron for criticizing Whitney and liking others. He also likes Patti a lot who you don't, so what is the point of bringing up someone who neither completely agrees or disagrees with either of us? Not only that I already said I have my own trusted source to go to, not sure why you randomly bring him and Ahmin up. I don't need to agree with everything, never said I did and you only just now brought him up. Both Streisand and Lara would be criticized differently under pure classical/chest coordination standards but alright, whatever makes you feel better.

What I'm doing does not shift anything, I am still judging your singers by classic musical theater or traditional pop standards so what on earth are you on about? It's simply true that if I can show chest coordination, I can judge your singers by classic musical theater standards/traditional pop singers and whether what they do is advanced in chest coordination. It doesn't shift anything, but nice try. This isn't about me "looking better", this is about the singers you bring up. I've said it 100 times now, who cares if I'm "not very good"? I shall accept the label, even if it makes me look worse, because I have no pride issues on that and I'm only here to show that your singers are "not very good" so pitting them against advanced modern pop singers is not impressive of you. You've been wasting years on this, I haven't wasted my time. People use the info for their own content, especially on voice types. You're here talking about whatever you try to talk about because I beat it into your head before TiO. Your info is just...irrelevant to everyone. 

we didn't complete the argument on SCS whatsoever and you know that, we were arguing other stuff so I let it go but since you're wasting time now I'm gonna hound you on it until you prove it. The fact of the matter is your singers are not rare in what they technically do nor does it require advanced skill, but the pop singers you "demean" are rarer or much less common in their ability (Whitney, Beyoncé, Naul, etc).

Oh no I "demean others", such a funny thing coming from you of all people and if anything I'm sure everyone who bothered to read that got a chuckle out of it too. We really having a personality contest here? I'd be a hypocrite and look like a moron if I pretended to be the nicest type of person in vocal discussions so I'm not even gonna bother/pretend, you look like an idiot here though for seriously thinking you haven't demeaned anyone a million times over the years.

so again, show and prove to us how THIS GUY, from 2:12 singing A3/B3 like that, a G4 @ 2:27 like that, an Eb4 @ 2:39 like that, D4 @ 2:44 like that

has waaaaay less constriction/is healthier than this guy

and this guy

Go on, explain it. Tell us why you think your stupid claim that Song Changsik having waaay less constriction/better coordination than David/Naul/Kyuhyun is true

Edited by C.Y.
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22 hours ago, C.Y. said:

i''m watching sports/boxing right now too but responding to you is pretty easy. unfortunately for you most people won't see anything you're trying to say, because you've been on the front page/first post of this thread under "mistrusted users" for years and still are in the eyes of the community. Reality of my knowledge? I showed you chest coordination clips of 2-3 months into training from 2015 that is "not very good", just like the "not very good" singers you bring up who were at least a decade to decades older than me when I recorded those clips. Meanwhile, you're not anything...? 😂

That's my point with Kay...you CAN'T do "real work" in that short time, so what even is the point of you bringing her up and namedropping Mahalia Jackson? You just made yourself look dumber here, why mention her along with those singers then if you agree she didn't do anything significant? For what? To make her seem more important when she's a "not very good" singer, as you've always done with your legion of "not very good" singers?

Silver would never agree with what you say is advanced other than a tiny portion of singers like Streisand. He'd think you were a complete moron for criticizing Whitney and liking others. He also likes Patti a lot who you don't, so what is the point of bringing up someone who neither completely agrees or disagrees with either of us? Not only that I already said I have my own trusted source to go to, not sure why you randomly bring him and Ahmin up. I don't need to agree with everything, never said I did and you only just now brought him up. Both Streisand and Lara would be criticized differently under pure classical/chest coordination standards but alright, whatever makes you feel better.

What I'm doing does not shift anything, I am still judging your singers by classic musical theater or traditional pop standards so what on earth are you on about? It's simply true that if I can show chest coordination, I can judge your singers by classic musical theater standards/traditional pop singers and whether what they do is advanced in chest coordination. It doesn't shift anything, but nice try. This isn't about me "looking better", this is about the singers you bring up. I've said it 100 times now, who cares if I'm "not very good"? I shall accept the label, even if it makes me look worse, because I have no pride issues on that and I'm only here to show that your singers are "not very good" so pitting them against advanced modern pop singers is not impressive of you. You've been wasting years on this, I haven't wasted my time. People use the info for their own content, especially on voice types. You're here talking about whatever you try to talk about because I beat it into your head before TiO. Your info is just...irrelevant to everyone. 

we didn't complete the argument on SCS whatsoever and you know that, we were arguing other stuff so I let it go but since you're wasting time now I'm gonna hound you on it until you prove it. The fact of the matter is your singers are not rare in what they technically do nor does it require advanced skill, but the pop singers you "demean" are rarer or much less common in their ability (Whitney, Beyoncé, Naul, etc).

Oh no I "demean others", such a funny thing coming from you of all people and if anything I'm sure everyone who bothered to read that got a chuckle out of it too. We really having a personality contest here? I'd be a hypocrite and look like a moron if I pretended to be the nicest type of person in vocal discussions so I'm not even gonna bother/pretend, you look like an idiot here though for seriously thinking you haven't demeaned anyone a million times over the years.

so again, show and prove to us how THIS GUY, from 2:12 singing A3/B3 like that, a G4 @ 2:27 like that, an Eb4 @ 2:39 like that, D4 @ 2:44 like that

has waaaaay less constriction/is healthier than this guy

and this guy

Go on, explain it. Tell us why you think your stupid claim that Song Changsik having waaay less constriction/better coordination than David/Naul/Kyuhyun is true

What a great game that was--LSU dominated as I expected. Quite a thrill. The playoff games should be good. Clemson's a big question mark for me now because they're obviously good--but how good? I guess we'll see. 

Here in Georgia, college football is huge. I'm not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine how important football is here if you're not from the South. It requires 100% attention--but I'm glad you can't help but think of me even while doing other things. You're just very low on my priority list, but I get it. You obsessively monitor for me. 

This is probably my last reply. Really this time. You're dumber than a box of bricks, and you constantly missing the point is getting old. 

You're the only one suggesting that I said she did real work with Mahalia (after, of course, denying it, now saying that it's your point. But, again, you say whatever you want to make yourself seem better in the moment). I'm saying that Kay and Mahalia did meet and that Kay worked with her. That's true. That's why I separate that from "vocal coach for Judy, Frank, Liza, and even worked with ... " Because that's a fact. That's why I post anecdotes that obviously show that they didn't like each other. Again, as you failed to understand this in my last comment, Kay sought out Mahalia for the gala and provided instruction to her singing. I think that's worth noting--as did her biographer and Mahalia's. I'm simply stating facts, but you're looking for rabbit holes. You reading anything more into that is 100% on you and your own inability to comprehend what is being said. I won't talk about it again because if you were as smart as you want everyone to believe, you'd understand that by now. 

More narcissism and even the feigned humility I predicted. The problem is that I can read you like a book, and you know it. The game is up with me. You didn't draw the distinction. You know it. I know it, and you're hoping the people reading this don't. If you'll gladly accept the label as being "not very good," just stuff it and stop trying to defend yourself from it. Lol That should be the end of the discussion. The only thing you've beat into my head is how stupid, pathetic, and narcissistic you are, but I expect nothing more from a goon of Jeremy Silver. The thing is, you wanted to come across as so unique, but there are literally dozens of people just like you, parading around pretending to be experts while also not singing very well and being taught by teachers who can't even correctly type their voice. What a joke. 

I don't even know where you got that I don't like Patti? I've been a fan of Patti for years. But say whatever you want if it makes you feel better. That doesn't mean I think she's perfect, and I have questioned why someone who is so "masky" is used as an example by a channel that hates "the mask," but I've never said she was a bad singer. 

I brought up Ahmin when relevant to discuss his influence on my thinking at times. Duh. 

I've already told you I'm not getting into the SCS debate. I stand by my assessments of David, Naul, Beyonce ,Lara, Sohyang. I don't think they are very good (or good, in some cases) or well-rounded vocalists, and you wouldn't either if you couldn't pull the style card. [While clearly ignoring it for SCS right here. I hope everyone reading this can see that it's suddenly about degrees of constriction (but you made me do it!, you'll say) instead of about how well the technique is being used in his own style that you've already admitted he has. You just can't help but prove me right without realizing it. 50IQ]. But that's completely irrelevant. 

No, you're the idiot here because there's no pretending. I've already made it clear publicly I took down videos I felt were demeaning and of that nature. I'm demeaning to you because I don't respect you. I respectfully talk to others and have made several friends I disagree with on vocals, and anyone can see that I've made serious attempts to be kinder over the last few years. You never have because you seem both intellectually and emotionally stunted to somewhere around junior high-level thinking and behavior. I think you are vile, and you turned this into a debate about character. When I flipped the script on you and you got scared, you wanted to start to back pedal to old arguments and try to hurt my credibility (just as I predicted, by the way). What's bothering you is that I'm not budging on it, and I'm not letting you re-frame the parameters of this debate. I'm not going down any rabbit holes that can distract anyone from my main point which was this: the style argument is murky, not totally without merit, but an extremely difficult argument to pull off for anyone here because of the breadth of knowledge of different styles/intent it requires and how that renders this thread effectively useless, as well as how some people abuse it to make some people look better while making others look worse. That's my point--you responded to me about that point, and now you're trying to do everything in the book to distract from the fact that you're not even trustworthy/good in your style. I'm not going down any other rabbit hole, especially when they're ones that I predicted you would have. 

You getting mad that I'm not taking your bait for completely irrelevant arguments is actually kind of funny, but it is sad that others apparently fall for it.

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2 hours ago, KoreaxxLove said:

What a great game that was--LSU dominated as I expected. Quite a thrill. The playoff games should be good. Clemson's a big question mark for me now because they're obviously good--but how good? I guess we'll see. 

Here in Georgia, college football is huge. I'm not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine how important football is here if you're not from the South. It requires 100% attention--but I'm glad you can't help but think of me even while doing other things. You're just very low on my priority list, but I get it. You obsessively monitor for me. 

This is probably my last reply. Really this time. You're dumber than a box of bricks, and you constantly missing the point is getting old. 

…..What in the world do you mean I was taught by a teacher who mistyped my voice? My teacher figured out EXACTLY what type of baritone when I first consulted him just by hearing me for a minute, before I even started getting trained by him in 2015. The person who mistyped my voice was a professor at my college NOW who is a SINGER AT THE METROPOLITAN OPERA--your favorite place! singing at the Met means you automatically have credibility and are a great singer/expert /sarcasm 😂 She isn't my voice teacher. I take a performance class from her and I perform CONTEMPORARY MUSIC in it, yknow, because I'm a CONTEMPORARY SINGER, except for occasions where it is required of you to perform something classically (which I haven't practiced/developed since 2016). I can't even explain the silliness of insulting someone who was not even past their mid 20s in those 4 year old clips for not being "advanced" at opera. You realize advanced opera singers are in their 30s at the earliest unless you are Maria Callas in disguise or any of the other Michael Jordans of operatic singing, right? This isn't pop music or your fancy musical theater singers who have the highest human voice type yet can't and/or don't need to sing past a C5/D5 in a difficult tessitura (while being over 30 lol), this is opera. And what's up with the random football comment, anyway? LOL...I'm from NYC, fam--the place where your favorite place is, THE METROPOLITAN OPERA! That's why I've heard singers FROM. THE. MET! 😂 In PERSON 😂 You know, those singers you assume have credibility? I have friends from Georgia though, nice place except for the vultures I guess, I don't like those creepy birds. 😂

…I'm a goon of Silver? I literally just told you he's not even the person I trust the most from the TiO circle. My teacher knows Silver well because they come from the same lineage that started with Stanley and LoMonaco, who were both also from NYC 😂 Why are you even bringing up and insulting Silver that his students have no "real careers", have you looked at his channel? His students can sing. His personality isn't really my problem and I don't even know how he is relevant here.

Let me break it down for you why my criticism on your claims for singers like Yang Hee Eun and Song Changsik compared to modern pop singers is absolutely JUSTIFIED, and how it isn't some sort of "shifting style argument". If you cannot follow my reasoning here (which everyone will certainly agree on), then there is nothing left to say and I do hope you mean it when you say that was your last comment because I have finals to study for starting this week. EVERYONE agrees that you do not compare the resonance of a singer like Kyuhyun/Naul to Pavarotti, yes? People that like modern pop singers are not stupid enough to claim that the resonance is better, or that it is more coordinated, or that it is healthier than opera singing, etc. Another example, people don't claim that Sohyang has a bigger mid than Whitney (except for some stans I suppose). There is a line drawn where we don't bother comparing them (unless it is to inform about voice types or physiological differences in pop to opera technique). We don't compare their skill level. However, what happens if some guy who is as ignorant as he is arrogant comes along and says "Kyuhyun and Naul are waaay more coordinated than Pavarotti, look at these clips of Pavarotti hahaha so far away from advanced singing!" or "Sohyang's mid soooo much better than Whitney's, look how far Whitney's is from advanced!" If that happened, the whole style argument has gone out the window, and that person needs to be corrected for making false claims on singing physiology and resonance/acoustics--it is absolutely justified in that case.

see, that's you except you tried to shove YHE down people's throats here and comparing her to Sohyang/Beyoncé, and that's you just last week trying to tell us SCS is better than Kyuhyun/Naul. It is not "shifting" to correct someone on something they arrogantly claim something false on vocal physiology and acoustics, I did not sign some holy contract with the vocal gods that says I need to abide by style arguments even if someone comes along and claims absurdities about the voice. Do you understand why I sided with you on the Shirley vs Natalie video now? Because the last thing I am is "dishonest" and I let go of all my pride to side with a guy who tries to disrespect the pedagogy I come from--you have no idea what that takes. I did not HAVE to comment on your video, I could have silently agreed but no one likes you in your youtube comments section and all you had were pop people who were deluded on how resonance works, so I sided with you.

Sohyang's head voice is not better than Whitney's in terms of resonance BUT she gets credit up to the same notes that Whitney sang up to in head voice (C6/C#6/maybe D6) because lightened head voices are OK in modern pop. See, that is how the "style argument" works. But what happens if stans come along and arrogantly claim Sohyang's head voice is bigger and more resonant than Whitney? Criticizing that is justified, the style argument goes out the window when there is a physiological/functional/acoustic falsity in such an outlandish claim--hence my posts back then on Sohyang's head voice compared to Whitney's. See, it does not matter if it is YOU, or someone in the pop community, or a classical person--my shtick all these years has always been to correct something about resonance when it is wrong from a physiological and acoustic perspective. Even if it means making AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE of how we try to judge singers by style, because criticizing a twisting/distortion of singing physiology and resonance is always warranted, especially when it is made in pure arrogance. You should have seen the way you were talking to a 15 year old ZHR23 about Yang Hee Eun. I do not HAVE to abide by any style argument if you act the way you do on Yang Hee Eun, Song Changsik, etc. because it is absolutely justified to make an exception to any style standards when outlandish claims like that are made. I did the same thing when discussing on your video on Shirley vs Natalie by siding with you, because of the context of the situation. The youtube comment from Mario was claiming Natalie's resonance was bigger, but it wasn't. It is not about who is advanced for what they do, blah blah in that moment because when someone makes arrogant and false claims about the acoustic/physiological/functional aspect of producing resonance between two singers, then it should be corrected no matter who is saying it. Clearly I don't agree with most modern opera listeners as well for a reason, I am not "shifting" anything, the reality is that the internet is full of people from way too many different schools which requires me to talk in way too many different ways (hardly my fault), and a lot are wrong on resonance which HAS to be corrected. **Keep it mind again that correcting falsities between facts of singing physiology and acoustics/resonance is different than arguing skill levels and how people should be ranked*

Edited by C.Y.

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alright, this is truly the last post from me--I am really sorry to whoever who had to suffer through this argument (or hopefully you didn't read it lmao), I'm not proud of it myself but I think I had to do it. Also I've really become a "business only" kind of person here in recent years, especially after some mishaps with the older members I wasn't trying to make friends or be personable anymore so I haven't talked to or thanked people much. So I wanna say thanks especially to people who still put up with my posts for a long time like ParkHyoLee and recently Bassizzino, Indigo, etc. and to any lurkers who don't hate my guts. Good luck in life 👍 Hell I'll even congratulate Ahmin even though he's been inactive since forever (maybe a lurker will tell him) for being the only guy in my 6 years in the online vocal community who doesn't suck at voice typing male singers. Literally the only person I can honestly say figured a lot of it which is impressive, we didn't constantly agree and I could be a dick but I think we bounced ideas off each other in a way, because one of the big reasons I got tired of vocal discussions (not here but elsewhere) is because people overrate and misclassify male singers and it bugs me to no end. Nothing but tenor users who can't voice type pop singers claiming that certain tenor singers are "skilled baritones" or tenor users that claim to be great "baritones" themselves, and online voice teachers who claim that voice type doesn't matter while being tenors who claim that they're baritones that "trained" to sing tenor stuff. I see it enough in person so I don't need this shit online. I got sick of it.

On 12/8/2019 at 3:39 PM, KoreaxxLove said:

I've already told you I'm not getting into the SCS debate. I stand by my assessments of David, Naul, Beyonce ,Lara, Sohyang. I don't think they are very good (or good, in some cases) or well-rounded vocalists, and you wouldn't either if you couldn't pull the style card. [While clearly ignoring it for SCS right here. I hope everyone reading this can see that it's suddenly about degrees of constriction (but you made me do it!, you'll say) instead of about how well the technique is being used in his own style that you've already admitted he has. You just can't help but prove me right without realizing it. 50IQ]. But that's completely irrelevant. 

okay seeing as how this is my last comment, I had to just make a separate comment for this little part you wrote. You should "pull the style card" as long as you know whether the singer in said style is actually using their coordination of the vocal folds/breathing in a reasonable manner for their desired larynx position/vocal tract shape (bright or dark, etc). Contemporary singing is about many different forms of expression/timbre choices and it is necessary. I will give you credit that from a strict classical perspective, having strong chest coordination should be better than having less of it, even if it's in a lesser range, but the thing is I don't actually agree with this angle when determining contemporary vocals. I can't be impressed by only mid range chest coordination, I know how it feels and quite honestly it is not hard to execute and hard to screw up on once you train it. The passaggio and acoustic shifts are there for a reason, that's where many singers start screwing up when singing in chest coordination. But sustaining the upper tessitura feels like a tight-rope walk, it requires a certain focus and concentration while you're singing in it that is much different than the mid-range. So I don't look at it the same way you do, and we can agree to disagree.

Were you here when the user caipirinhas was around? She used to post here right before Ahmin left, and she knew how to sing in this traditional musical theater/chest coordinated style in the low to mid that you enjoy. Some of the singers you bring up you may think have a rare skillset but we've had our very own singer in this thread who could sing like the ones you enjoy. A thread that barely had anyone consistently posting their singing and we still managed to have our own traditional MT soprano with that coordination in the mid-range. Not because it's a small world, it's just not too uncommon to see. You cannot find a Sohyang, a David Phelps, or a Beyoncé so easily. They excel at what they do, and it takes a lot of skill anyhow. A lot of the singers you're bringing up aren't terribly uncommon. You can literally sit here on this site and still came a soprano user in this thread who could sing better than Ethel Merman--caipirinhas was not inconsistently spread like Merman (because of the NY accent), she could sing at least like Kay Thompson. If you surround yourself with singers in training then you will have heard a bunch of singers who can do the thing you like in the range that they do, it's not as advanced or rare as you think to stick to the mid range in chest coordination. 

There are valid points you make about TiO's behavior...but that's not what it was ever really about and here's why I think it's not. You went to Philip Castagner just because he was in opposition to TiO (and clearly because you associate TiO with me, but besides the pedagogy we are not responsible for each other), again Philip was the only person aside from Tristan Paredes to be banned from the singing subreddit for demeaning people (not a problem with him for you but with TiO/me apparently) and harassing actual users--including teenagers in some weird attempt to "expose" them for being "frauds". He went as far as to make fake accounts to DM with people to "expose" them. Besides saying he "makes a point" about TiO which I don't agree with, you calling out TiO's behavior as an excuse to insult them seems like a bit of a cover for the same issues you've always had in yourself. Castagner has done nothing but demean people too, going out of his way to attack users on reddit/youtube AND professional singers by making claims that he self-taught himself to be a better singer than everyone else in modern opera (he's not with his neck bulging, turning all red and pushing like that). Maybe to some degree it has to do with TiO's behavior but certainly not the brunt of it. Philip is worse if you ask me. You mainly started disrespecting TiO only after you started arguing with me on Merman and then insulting them just now because you associate them with me. And honestly, you know TiO are Silver's students and you've probably already checked how his long-term students sing, you can't seriously say they refuse to post or can't sing.

I can be a dick when it comes to vocal discussions, I will not lie or pretend I'm not. But I have not catfished this entire vocals thread and its users for years or something like that, lmao. I can't ever pretend I've been some nice, civil guy lately the way you said about yourself. I think we're all pieces of work in our own way and it requires a certain uhhh big personality to feel competitive on knowledge and obsess on vocal details the way we do. On your Sohyang video (I think it was that one) someone asked you about the blog's opinion and you left a comment about how the blog members have always been inaccurate and untrustworthy for pop vocals, something along those lines. Ahmin even left a comment himself and I'm paraphrasing but it was basically like "If you want to pick an argument go do it with someone else, it won't be me". Maybe from now on you might, but claiming that you've been turning over a new leaf for the "last few years" doesn't make sense when just recently you were not--and you admitted it with your videos. To be fair, I can't actually imagine what it's like to be you, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you on things. It probably hasn't been easy at all to deal with many people opposing you for years, and for that I am sorry. 

Goodbye and good luck to you as well, I'm sure we would have gotten along if we met normally outside of some online vocal discussions

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On 12/10/2019 at 1:29 AM, C.Y. said:

alright, this is truly the last post from me--I am really sorry to whoever who had to suffer through this argument (or hopefully you didn't read it lmao), I'm not proud of it myself but I think I had to do it. Also I've really become a "business only" kind of person here in recent years, especially after some mishaps with the older members I wasn't trying to make friends or be personable anymore so I haven't talked to or thanked people much. So I wanna say thanks especially to people who still put up with my posts for a long time like ParkHyoLee and recently Bassizzino, Indigo, etc. and to any lurkers who don't hate my guts. Good luck in life 👍 Hell I'll even congratulate Ahmin even though he's been inactive since forever (maybe a lurker will tell him) for being the only guy in my 6 years in the online vocal community who doesn't suck at voice typing male singers. Literally the only person I can honestly say figured a lot of it which is impressive, we didn't constantly agree and I could be a dick but I think we bounced ideas off each other in a way, because one of the big reasons I got tired of vocal discussions (not here but elsewhere) is because people overrate and misclassify male singers and it bugs me to no end. Nothing but tenor users who can't voice type pop singers claiming that certain tenor singers are "skilled baritones" or tenor users that claim to be great "baritones" themselves, and online voice teachers who claim that voice type doesn't matter while being tenors who claim that they're baritones that "trained" to sing tenor stuff. I see it enough in person so I don't need this shit online. I got sick of it.

okay seeing as how this is my last comment, I had to just make a separate comment for this little part you wrote. You should "pull the style card" as long as you know whether the singer in said style is actually using their coordination of the vocal folds/breathing in a reasonable manner for their desired larynx position/vocal tract shape (bright or dark, etc). Contemporary singing is about many different forms of expression/timbre choices and it is necessary. I will give you credit that from a strict classical perspective, having strong chest coordination should be better than having less of it, even if it's in a lesser range, but the thing is I don't actually agree with this angle when determining contemporary vocals. I can't be impressed by only mid range chest coordination, I know how it feels and quite honestly it is not hard to execute and hard to screw up on once you train it. The passaggio and acoustic shifts are there for a reason, that's where many singers start screwing up when singing in chest coordination. But sustaining the upper tessitura feels like a tight-rope walk, it requires a certain focus and concentration while you're singing in it that is much different than the mid-range. So I don't look at it the same way you do, and we can agree to disagree.

Were you here when the user caipirinhas was around? She used to post here right before Ahmin left, and she knew how to sing in this traditional musical theater/chest coordinated style in the low to mid that you enjoy. Some of the singers you bring up you may think have a rare skillset but we've had our very own singer in this thread who could sing like the ones you enjoy. A thread that barely had anyone consistently posting their singing and we still managed to have our own traditional MT soprano with that coordination in the mid-range. Not because it's a small world, it's just not too uncommon to see. You cannot find a Sohyang, a David Phelps, or a Beyoncé so easily. They excel at what they do, and it takes a lot of skill anyhow. A lot of the singers you're bringing up aren't terribly uncommon. You can literally sit here on this site and still came a soprano user in this thread who could sing better than Ethel Merman--caipirinhas was not inconsistently spread like Merman (because of the NY accent), she could sing at least like Kay Thompson. If you surround yourself with singers in training then you will have heard a bunch of singers who can do the thing you like in the range that they do, it's not as advanced or rare as you think to stick to the mid range in chest coordination. 

There are valid points you make about TiO's behavior...but that's not what it was ever really about and here's why I think it's not. You went to Philip Castagner just because he was in opposition to TiO (and clearly because you associate TiO with me, but besides the pedagogy we are not responsible for each other), again Philip was the only person aside from Tristan Paredes to be banned from the singing subreddit for demeaning people (not a problem with him for you but with TiO/me apparently) and harassing actual users--including teenagers in some weird attempt to "expose" them for being "frauds". He went as far as to make fake accounts to DM with people to "expose" them. Besides saying he "makes a point" about TiO which I don't agree with, you calling out TiO's behavior as an excuse to insult them seems like a bit of a cover for the same issues you've always had in yourself. Castagner has done nothing but demean people too, going out of his way to attack users on reddit/youtube AND professional singers by making claims that he self-taught himself to be a better singer than everyone else in modern opera (he's not with his neck bulging, turning all red and pushing like that). Maybe to some degree it has to do with TiO's behavior but certainly not the brunt of it. Philip is worse if you ask me. You mainly started disrespecting TiO only after you started arguing with me on Merman and then insulting them just now because you associate them with me. And honestly, you know TiO are Silver's students and you've probably already checked how his long-term students sing, you can't seriously say they refuse to post or can't sing.

I can be a dick when it comes to vocal discussions, I will not lie or pretend I'm not. But I have not catfished this entire vocals thread and its users for years or something like that, lmao. I can't ever pretend I've been some nice, civil guy lately the way you said about yourself. I think we're all pieces of work in our own way and it requires a certain uhhh big personality to feel competitive on knowledge and obsess on vocal details the way we do. On your Sohyang video (I think it was that one) someone asked you about the blog's opinion and you left a comment about how the blog members have always been inaccurate and untrustworthy for pop vocals, something along those lines. Ahmin even left a comment himself and I'm paraphrasing but it was basically like "If you want to pick an argument go do it with someone else, it won't be me". Maybe from now on you might, but claiming that you've been turning over a new leaf for the "last few years" doesn't make sense when just recently you were not--and you admitted it with your videos. To be fair, I can't actually imagine what it's like to be you, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you on things. It probably hasn't been easy at all to deal with many people opposing you for years, and for that I am sorry. 

Goodbye and good luck to you as well, I'm sure we would have gotten along if we met normally outside of some online vocal discussions

I ignored the first post, but this second one is more civil, and so I'm not writing to argue this time. 

I think you hit the nail on the head with the way I see it. I think it's clear I've never been a fan of people like Lara and Sohyang, etc. even if you don't find them often. Even before I knew why, I could hear trapped, small sounds and very deficient chest registers. Their tones never sounded clear or pleasant, and that was never a subjective issue for me. I would much rather listen to someone like Betty or Kay who can go in a more limited range because I don't find upper notes for almost anyone particularly that pleasing. I think that's fair to say, even if the notes are "like a tightrope." For singers like Sohyang, singing like Betty in the fourth is a very hard thing to do, as well. 

And I think we can agree on this, too. I've had various non-TiO-influenced criticisms of the same singers--Sohyang's pitch, for instance, or Lara's inability to phrase when singing lower. These are still valid criticisms. I've said for years they both don't have the dynamic ability of Streisand, and when I hear someone like Judy Garland and Mahalia Jackson hit at times better C5s than they do, well, I think you get the picture ... style or not. And, for the record, I don't believe most anyone in the pop community draws lines between different pop styles--whether they should or not. 

Just for the record, Philip was recommended for me, or I searched "Mr. Opera" or something and he popped up. The ideas caught my attention, and I asked him, mainly because hearing Patti in those videos was weird for me because she does so much they dislike. Honestly, I asked you about it, too. I didn't start hating on them until a young singer in the comments section got laughed at and ridiculed for suggesting to them that she didn't disagree with their information but suddenly felt very self-conscience because she had many of the same flaws. Believe it or not, I'm a kind person, and I really did not like that behavior. Aside from you, I can't remember taking any personal digs at anyone's singing, and I've explained my reasoning for that. I just really did not like that and began to wonder what kind of people ran the channel. I do believe that's fair. As I've said, I'm getting older, life's getting more complicated, and I simply don't take enjoyment out of the sass and flare and debates like I used to. 

I think you also misunderstand why I don't care for you. I forget who we were debating (maybe YHE?), and I had left a very civil reply and you responded in a very hateful manner. I actually respected you a lot before then. It wasn't until you came out of nowhere being unnecessarily rude and demeaning that I started to shift that. Even more so as I watched how you debated and the shifts I've seen you pull [we'll have to agree to disagree on that, as well]. 

Caprihanas was the one who introduced me to Betty, by the way. And for what it's worth, just because I've mentioned SCS, Betty, YHE, etc, it doesn't mean I think that they're all on the same level. I can praise Elaine Paige, but it doesn't mean I think she's Judy Garland, etc. etc. 

Have I been excessive in my praise for some vocalists? Sure, but who in this thread hasn't? And oftentimes, they still do something really well, they're just not as well-rounded as I believed. I honestly don't see the harm in that. 

Maybe we would have gotten along. I'm not sure. I'd like to think so. Anyway, I wish you the best. 

Edited by KoreaxxLove

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On 12/10/2019 at 1:29 AM, C.Y. said:

 like ParkHyoLee and recently Bassizzino, Indigo, etc. and to any lurkers who don't hate my guts. Good luck in life 👍

yasss me coming into this thread to get mentioned by C.Y.? we love to see it. Hope ur doing well too 😘

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