Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[indigo]

 

i'm really not sure I want to talk about it LOL...all I can say right now is the amount of baritones and tenors is somewhat closer than you think. There's a particular group with no actual tenors in it, they were popular some years back I think. One of the groups popular now has mostly baritones actually, not including the rappers...out of the three main singers people talk about in this thread, only one is a tenor. Honestly two would be rated well if they were rated as baritones. I can't talk about them though, there is actually evidence of it to show but I'm not confident I can convince people seeing as how Taeyang is already so hard. They also have bad sounding lower registers, like Taeyang initially seemed, so it makes me sound even crazier despite their passaggi clearly indicating otherwise. I mean, why are there no good high baritones for example? Everyone knows sopranos can be around good, mezzos, tenors, lower baritones...but the most common voice type, the higher baritones? None of them? LOL, one or two of them would be rated close to good but they're being called tenors. But yeah... all three of those guys, even Jay Park, are baritones.

 

I know what i'm saying is a bit crazy but think about this critically. To assume that there are like 98% tenors is to assume that people that sign these singers have ears to even discern that in the first place. Or to assume that everyone is a "light lyric" is to also assume that they can tell...they definitely cannot. Even the classical teachers that spend their lives learning classically cannot do this correctly, as I've shown. Pop record labels aren't gonna be like "okay well you're attractive and have appeal, naturally talented and can sing in most of the 4th octave or at least have what sounds to be a trainable voice, nice youthful sound...but I can tell you're a baritone and we don't like those fuckers, sorry". They really cannot tell. Baritones, ESPECIALLY the high ones, can mix throughout the entire 4th octave and even into the 5th. Most non-professionals cannot, even tenors here can attest to that, but professionals? professionals yeah, they may not be pretty "resonant" singers but one thing they make sure their singers can do is mix, regardless of being tenor or baritone.

 

first group, 2PM? And second... really sounds like Baekhyun and Kyungsoo  bad lower ranges, 2 of 3 main vocals.

 

Taeyang, with all your examples, I see what you mean. But yeah the idea of BaekSoo being baritones is really strange. Baekhyun, is a bit easier but Kyungsoo sounds so very boy-ish to me, I always thought that was a tenor thing, if not the tenor thing. But you're saying, that those are not honest indicators. 

 

So, for higher baritones, would contemporary training need to be different from tenors? 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Indigo

[Jstarfully]

Click here to view the Tweet

 

How do you guys think about their vocals?

 

It sounds like it's been either live corrected or post, or perhaps they re-recorded it later, not dancing. Their lips and mic movements don't quite match the audio at some parts. I'd be hard pressed to actually take this audio as live, non-processed vocals.

[Jstarfully]

It would be valid if k-pop agencies casted singers in their 20s with classic education (just as they do here), but i Korea they take in teenagers. Kids all want to debut, they all try to sing high. Some can't & are turned into rappers now (but prior, for older groups not so much).

But, as I mentioned above, all those potential baritones don't sing enough in their most comfortable range, some even can't, being trained as light lyric tenors.

 

I mean, if they were all trained like they did on ep 2 of P101S2 then I'd understand. The trainers just go 'why can't you sing high? you can't sing' but they don't actually teach them anything.

 

A bass probably wouldn't be able to sing in standard kpop range, but a baritone should be able to with a good teacher. The tutor I have right now has been able to train some crazy notes out of people you'd think wouldn't be able to go that high (or low for that matter). In contemporary you can train yourself to have a much wider 'comfortable' range than with classical. If everyone who sang was trained like that, it'd probably almost be better to be a baritone or a mezzo, because training yourself to sing lower is damn near impossible once you hit a certain note, but reinforcing your head voice and eventually making into a mix extends your voice pretty damn near as high as a soprano or tenor could sing.

[WDorn]

A bass probably wouldn't be able to sing in standard kpop range, but a baritone should be able to with a good teacher.

In contemporary you can train yourself to have a much wider 'comfortable' range than with classical. If everyone who sang was trained like that, it'd probably almost be better to be a baritone or a mezzo, because training yourself to sing lower is damn near impossible once you hit a certain note, but reinforcing your head voice and eventually making into a mix extends your voice pretty damn near as high as a soprano or tenor could sing.

That's the reason vocal range works perfectly fine with classic singing & chest voice but isn't really applicable to contemporary music, they say.

In fact, in k-pop they compare singers who all are supposed to sing in the same range, whatever techniques that takes.

 

But, yes, it's pretty interesting to analyze what voice would they have if they get to sing in their 'natural' voice without so much mix & falcetto.

It explains well enough how some of 'tenors' actually have more rich & colorful tone on lower range.

But, again, it's hard for not so professional singers to change techniques on the spot, so low note after the high ones migh not be so impressive, I think.

[Jstarfully]

That's the reason vocal range works perfectly fine with classic singing & chest voice but isn't really applicable to contemporary music, they say.

In fact, in k-pop they compare singers who all are supposed to sing in the same range, whatever techniques that takes.

 

But, yes, it's pretty interesting to analyze what voice would they have if they get to sing in their 'natural' voice without so much mix & falcetto.

It explains well enough how some of 'tenors' actually have more rich & colorful tone on lower range.

But, again, it's hard for not so professional singers to change techniques on the spot, so low note after the high ones migh not be so impressive, I think.

 

It can be hard for some people though. Like my issue right now is that if I start off on very high notes, ever E5 or smth, my mix and placement is easy to find. However if the song starts off low and goes mid-high, like D-Db5 ish, I don't transition into my head mix well and try to push my chest voice up instead. It's taking a lot of practice haha and I got a scholarship in singing years ago, and being self-taught back then, it's not like I wasn't already doing well. This one thing is just hell though 

 

I think it takes a lot of dedication, hard work, a good tutor, and tons of practice. It's muscle memory, but unlike breathing, which came naturally, and openness which came with a little work, transitioning throughout registers can be really difficult. At least, that's how I'm finding it.

 

Plus so many people go 'oh I'm a mezzo, I can't sing that high' or 'oh I'm a tenor I can't sing that low' which is frustrating because if you have that mindset you won't even try to develop your technique. Unless you're an alto or a bass, you can 95% of the time sing pop songs just as well as tenors and sopranos.

[칼릴�]

 

 

 

yeah I was purposely being a bit of a dick, I spent time writing that because I'm passionate about what I talk about, and I don't need some snarky comment for my efforts. I'm sitting here trying to give free info that people spend thousands and thousands of dollars in universities just to be tricked by some shitty classical teacher who will tell you you're a "light lyric tenor" or a "leggero", just like that spinto tenor who I posted on my soundcloud. Maybe not even that, they'll just train you as a "baritone" for your college years, especially if you are dramatic. This happens a lot.

 

I'm rather surprised you don't remember me telling you on kakao about a year and a few months ago that you're a tenor after 1 minute of listening to you. You showed me both a bit of your classical singing and a bit of your pop singing. I even gave you a bunch of operatic tenors to listen to because I was that sure. You were telling me your teacher was unsure of your voice type and I said...nah.

I wasn't trying to be snarky, just a bit funny. However I see how that could come off that way. I do appreciate the effort you are putting into explaining to everyone.

 

I know you did, but their main concern was that my voice would switch on me. They were thinking about me more in the future rather than me right now. Because that is also fairly dangerous, teaching and training like I am a tenor, but later on my voice shifts to Baritone and have to deal with all of that frustration or of course the other way around. Really, because even during lessons with her my voice could go through a gradual shift and change. So it was just them being cautious and making sure I am being taught effectively rather than calling me one thing and then end up being something else later on because of maturation. It has nothing to do with this competence

 

That being said, I am pretty sure I am not a lyric tenor, and my voice teacher has mentioned that I am probably more of a Dramatic Tenor, but even then she's not calling it for certain because I am just 18 and not like 30 something.

[Secre]

I mean, if they were all trained like they did on ep 2 of P101S2 then I'd understand. The trainers just go 'why can't you sing high? you can't sing' but they don't actually teach them anything.

 

A bass probably wouldn't be able to sing in standard kpop range, but a baritone should be able to with a good teacher. The tutor I have right now has been able to train some crazy notes out of people you'd think wouldn't be able to go that high (or low for that matter). In contemporary you can train yourself to have a much wider 'comfortable' range than with classical. If everyone who sang was trained like that, it'd probably almost be better to be a baritone or a mezzo, because training yourself to sing lower is damn near impossible once you hit a certain note, but reinforcing your head voice and eventually making into a mix extends your voice pretty damn near as high as a soprano or tenor could sing.

This annoyed me so much. Like the song is already unreasonably high for a bunch of boys who probably aren't training to be main vocals anyways, and you're just going to tell them "sing higher, do better". I understand they need a celebrity vocal coach for ratings who probably can't teach anyways but hire an actual coach on the side of that. The only other coach they brought was Twice and BTS's vocal coach and if those are her credentials then................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLdIUu_FqY

Like Ren literally just screamed and he said not not bad at 4:55.

[galhadineas]

my ears aren't well trained enough to do it with female voices, I don't think. Well I have not tried at all anyway, but it's not something I would feel confident at all with. Thing is sopranos are more common than mezzos, but baritones are more common than tenors. So it might not be untrue for mezzos but I wouldn't know right now. I'm not a pro with the male voices either, but I am a lot better than average. I'm good enough at this point to make educated guesses even with untrained singers. I took a listen to Dan's soundcloud just now and I can tell he is an actual tenor (congrats Dan your dream is a reality), there are more than enough notes of him singing down to C3 and from Eb4 - F4 to tell this. I can even tell he could potentially be a lower one, which sounds unbelievable but there are indicators in his voice, despite the stereotypical "lyric" sound he has because he has a bright timbre and is singing thin in the high notes. Freddie Mercury mixed a lot like he did, they even sound similar in a way if you listen their low notes and higher notes, and Freddie Mercury was a lower tenor as well (ignore the annotations on the video saying he is a "baritenor" pls LOL)

 

 

 

 

*goes back to the discussion like*

[Princess Yelena]

Is Luna trained singer?

She was scouted as a dancer, and she even said by herself that she doesn't have singing gene in her, but she is best active vocalist in SM??? She's faking right??

[AhMin]

Is Luna trained singer?

 

She was scouted as a dancer, and she even said by herself that she doesn't have singing gene in her, but she is best active vocalist in SM??? She's faking right??

She improved a lot after debuting. At first she wasn't really that strong of a vocalist.

[BAZISSINO]

This annoyed me so much. Like the song is already unreasonably high for a bunch of boys who probably aren't training to be main vocals anyways, and you're just going to tell them "sing higher, do better". I understand they need a celebrity vocal coach for ratings who probably can't teach anyways but hire an actual coach on the side of that. The only other coach they brought was Twice and BTS's vocal coach and if those are her credentials then................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLdIUu_FqY

Like Ren literally just screamed and he said not not bad at 4:55.

 PEOPLE need to hear her singing LOL 

 

[♥SNS-Shinomiya♥]

OMG I FOUND IT!!!

 

 

1:52

[ParkHyoLee]

 

 

*goes back to the discussion like*

 

you love that starbucks gif lol. Who is that again?

 

Also throwback to debut whitney. She was adorable here. Also @ 1:23 it's so strange to hear her sing in this way considering how her technique evolved more into her career 

 

[galhadineas]

OMG I FOUND IT!!!

 

 

1:52

 

omg when will taeyeon ever

[Gung]

I think she supports. Her mix is very heady though which is why her high notes sound smooth I guess. I'm not sure of the quality of those notes tbh, but I think they're pretty tight.

 

Thank you for the help 

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

i didnt think it was possible, but willemijn is improving on her F5s

 

 

performance from last week:

 

@1:08 i think a supported F5 (but it could be slightly throaty or pushed)

@1:25 her huge Eb5s and C#5s as always

(keep in mind that she's a mezzo soprano).

 

 

 

 

she has really, really healthy technique. she started her musical career when she was 19, and she's now 41.

she's maintained healthy technique for over 20 years... and not only that, but in total, she's apparently performed the role of elphaba in over 2000 shows to date.

and she resonates each and every single time... live..... 

 

 

disney mulan's reflection with a live orchestra. (even if you're annoyed with me talking about willemijn, it's a really beautiful listen).

@2:16 to 2:29.... a 13 second long phrase sung in one breath, supported all throughout. she's really perfected her breath control

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by MMHH

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

I mean, if they were all trained like they did on ep 2 of P101S2 then I'd understand. The trainers just go 'why can't you sing high? you can't sing' but they don't actually teach them anything.

 

A bass probably wouldn't be able to sing in standard kpop range, but a baritone should be able to with a good teacher. The tutor I have right now has been able to train some crazy notes out of people you'd think wouldn't be able to go that high (or low for that matter). In contemporary you can train yourself to have a much wider 'comfortable' range than with classical. If everyone who sang was trained like that, it'd probably almost be better to be a baritone or a mezzo, because training yourself to sing lower is damn near impossible once you hit a certain note, but reinforcing your head voice and eventually making into a mix extends your voice pretty damn near as high as a soprano or tenor could sing.

 

^ i need a vocal coach that can help me do this LOL

 

 

This annoyed me so much. Like the song is already unreasonably high for a bunch of boys who probably aren't training to be main vocals anyways, and you're just going to tell them "sing higher, do better". I understand they need a celebrity vocal coach for ratings who probably can't teach anyways but hire an actual coach on the side of that. The only other coach they brought was Twice and BTS's vocal coach and if those are her credentials then................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLdIUu_FqY

Like Ren literally just screamed and he said not not bad at 4:55.

 

 

same. it's so annoying how they rate the vocals on that show :x sometimes they're like "great job!" but the guy that's singing is 100% in his throat

ive been following produce101 closely and i think even i sing better than most of the guys on that show :x and i have no professional training :x

Edited April 24, 2017 by MMHH

[칼릴�]

i didnt think it was possible, but willemijn is improving on her F5s

 

 

performance from last week:

 

@1:08 i think a supported F5 (but it could be slightly throaty or pushed)

@1:25 her huge Eb5s and C#5s as always

 

 

 

 

she has really, really healthy technique. she started her musical career when she was 19, and she's now 41.

she's maintained healthy technique for over 20 years... and not only that, but in total, she's apparently performed the role of elphaba in over 2000 shows to date.

and she resonates each and every single time... live..... 

Yeah, that F5 really isn't what I would consider supported; her larynx is pretty high and the support just isn't that engaged. 

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

Yeah, that F5 really isn't what I would consider supported; her larynx is pretty high and the support just isn't that engaged. 

 

oh okay, thanks - good to know! i guess my suspicions were right then LOL

so i guess this brings her supported mix range down to Eb5/E5, with some rare instances of supporting F5.

[칼릴�]

oh okay, thanks - good to know! i guess my suspicions were right then LOL

so i guess this brings her supported mix range down to Eb5/E5, with some rare instances of supporting F5.

See I am not even sure if I liked her Eb5s in that video. I honestly don't think she is as good as you think she is. Not saying she is bad because she seems to have C#5s, but just not as skilled as you would like her to be.

 

Do you have her singing anything else? Because you seem to only post her singing that exact same song, and I just need to hear variety from her to be sure.

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

See I am not even sure if I liked her Eb5s in that video. I honestly don't think she is as good as you think she is. Not saying she is bad because she seems to have C#5s, but just not as skilled as you would like her to be.

 

Do you have her singing anything else? Because you seem to only post her singing that exact same song, and I just need to hear variety from her to be sure.

 

really? it's not just because i like her, but i genuinely thought her Eb5s were nice LOL but i mean you're more experienced than i am, so if you don't think she supported Eb5, then I'll believe you and I'll change my thinking.

 

ummmmm lemme see what else

 

the first thing that comes to mind is let it go from frozen. the Eb5 is @3:20

but now that you mention it, it does sound a bit throaty.

 

[칼릴�]

really? it's not just because i like her, but i genuinely thought her Eb5s were nice LOL but i mean you're more experienced than i am, so if you don't think she supported Eb5, then I'll believe you and I'll change my thinking.

 

ummmmm lemme see what else

 

the first thing that comes to mind is let it go from frozen. the Eb5 is @3:20

but now that you mention it, it does sound a bit throaty.

 

In the chorus there are phrased Eb5s as well on the I(Eb5) don't care what they're (Eb5) and those already aren't very supported..and yeah the big Eb5 at the end was tight.

[holahuz]

Is Luna trained singer?

 

She was scouted as a dancer, and she even said by herself that she doesn't have singing gene in her, but she is best active vocalist in SM??? She's faking right??

 

she did get scouted for dancing. She said her training was more intensive than any other trainees in SM and for vocals, she improved after debuting. I'm not sure why you say she's faking it but she came from a musically inclined family. She admitted that her family monitor her and usually criticized her singing because she singing in wrong technique so she kept practicing and done musicals.

[SixSevenHate]

This annoyed me so much. Like the song is already unreasonably high for a bunch of boys who probably aren't training to be main vocals anyways, and you're just going to tell them "sing higher, do better". I understand they need a celebrity vocal coach for ratings who probably can't teach anyways but hire an actual coach on the side of that. The only other coach they brought was Twice and BTS's vocal coach and if those are her credentials then................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLdIUu_FqY

Like Ren literally just screamed and he said not not bad at 4:55.

PEOPLE need to hear her singing LOL

 

Nobody actually knows who BTS vocal coach is the only thing we know is that their coach belong to the same trainer agency than the guy currently teaching Somi in the Unnies. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kim Sung Eun who was training BTS Jin and TWICE is not part of the season 2 of produce 101.

 

Those coach are new and that guy was doing a really bad job literally telling the boys to hit the high notes even if it didn't fit their range and even scolding them for not hitting the right note as if they all became main vocals of their agency.

 

The girl is a vocal trainer under JYP but I don't think she trained TWICE since Kim Sung Eun was in charge. They didn't really show much of her teaching in the second episode tbh

 

She is throaty here and there in the performance but overall she seems to be good imo.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by SixSevenHate

[AhMin]

OMG I FOUND IT!!!

 

 

1:52

Yes it's been found! But I don't even think I'd call that supported.