Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[jeong jaehyuns boyfriend]

Yeah, not even Sohyang does..what is why her supported range is G3/G#3-C6/C#6-F6/F#6....and she has been extremely consistent with her C6/C#6 belting...sooo...

 

Yeah, not even Sohyang does..what is why her supported range is G3/G#3-C6/C#6-F6/F#6....and she has been extremely consistent with her C6/C#6 belting...sooo...

 

lol my point is, to have a certain note, i think we expect singers to be consistent, not perfect

 

my suggestion might have been too premature, but lets see how taeyeon does in the live performances for this promotion cycle.

im confident that she'll be consistent with her D5s more often than not and has a good chance to push her supported range up to just D5 :o but we'll see xD

[칼릴�]

lol my point is, to have a certain note, i think we expect singers to be consistent, not perfect

 

my suggestion might have been too premature, but lets see how taeyeon does in the live performances for this promotion cycle.

im confident that she'll be consistent with her D5s more often than not and has a good chance to push her supported range up to just D5 :o but we'll see xD

I am not changing the way her supported range is written until she supports Eb5 consistently. Then I will change it to D5/Eb5...for now it will stay and be "C#5/D5"

 

Again having it C#5/D5 is the same as it just saying "D5" for the most part....it has been explained before why the supported ranges are written like that...

Edited February 28, 2017 by 칼릴�

[칼릴�]

Im a flop, If I Leave is my fav ost too.

Loolool I was expecting Fate, but then I saw "If I Leave" and was like "Oh..okay" lol

[Messica]

I am not changing the way her supported range is written until she supports Eb5 consistently. Then I will change it to D5/Eb5...for now it will stay and be "C#5/D5"

 

Again having it C#5/D5 is the same as it just saying "D5" for the most part....it has been explained before why the supported ranges are written like that...

what you think of her Eb5s

at 0:41, 0:51, 1:45, 1:55, 2:23, 2:33

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnLJLvSNtZY

[Messica]

Im feeling taeyeon's D5s in Fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLWnc8O75w

 

theyre everywhere btw so no need for timestamps

[galhadineas]

That's Irene head voice that G5 lol..god I hate Heechul.......

 

Also..that song is "If I leave" not Fate lol.

 

Also omg...Seulgi really needs to relax and open up..she's really squeezing and singing through her nose..like literally projecting through her nose..she's really nasal....

 

in that last song it was even more noticeable lol It'd be so cool if she could resonate 

 

 

 

y'all praying for taeyeon to start supporting Eb5 while I'm praying for Uji to start relaxing and being less tight and more opened so she could resonante more 

Edited February 28, 2017 by DanReborn

[HARAM]

what do you think of seola from wjsn as a vocalist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcn15Eq6DAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siT4FVAO5hs

she's the one with darker hair here

[Secre]

what do you think of seola from wjsn as a vocalist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcn15Eq6DAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siT4FVAO5hs

she's the one with darker hair here

Take what I say with a grain of salt but I love WJSN if you haven't noticed lol so i'm pretty familiar with all of them vocally. From what I noticed she's that typical "girly" style of singing, weak support, nasal, airy, she actually lets way too much air pass, and doesn't connect her vocal chords much soft, and lacking projection. Like in the Say Something cover contrast her singing with Dawon she's singing with airiness for the dynamics of the song, but you can hear the support, and fullness in her voice. Idk the specifics like how high she can remain relaxed, where she can keep tone in her lower range but if she's unable to support then she's probably in that weak or weak to average range. But i've never asked about her before it's just what I noticed so I may be wrong

Edited February 28, 2017 by Secret

[galhadineas]

Take what I say with a grain of salt but I love WJSN if you haven't noticed lol so i'm pretty familiar with all of them vocally. From what I noticed she's that typical "girly" style of singing, weak support, nasal, airy, she actually lets way too much air pass, and doesn't connect her vocal chords much soft, and lacking projection. Like in the Say Something cover contrast her singing with Dawon she's singing with airiness for the dynamics of the song, but you can hear the support, and fullness in her voice. Idk the specifics like how high she can remain relaxed, where she can keep tone in her lower range but if she's unable to support then she's probably in that weak or weak to average range. But i've never asked about her before it's just what I noticed so I may be wrong

 

she uses her throat a lot too like at 2:58 in the say something video

 

 

talking about throatiness I hate so much when Taeyeon gets throaty because it sounds so painful @ 2:41

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by DanReborn

[lepidoptery]

and this No Doubt sounding song 

 

 

Huh, I think Sonamoo's Minjae covered this on Girl Spirit.

[칼릴�]

what you think of her Eb5s

at 0:41, 0:51, 1:45, 1:55, 2:23, 2:33

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnLJLvSNtZY

I love this song, I think it is my favorite B-side~

 

Honestly, I don't dislike these Eb5s..like at all. They're well placed and seem supported, however there is quite a bit of editing on it for effect. So I am hesitant to be like "oh yeah, supported and part of supported range" hopefully she preforms it live so I can accurately judge the Eb5s...but really those were nice.

[Avatarkyungsoo]

she uses her throat a lot too like at 2:58 in the say something video

 

 

talking about throatiness I hate so much when Taeyeon gets throaty because it sounds so painful @ 2:41

 

3:30 here sounds painful haha although i don't think she actually felt pain. the dark days haha! I'm so happy she improved

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Kevin92

[Avatarkyungsoo]

I love this song, I think it is my favorite B-side~

 

Honestly, I don't dislike these Eb5s..like at all. They're well placed and seem supported, however there is quite a bit of editing on it for effect. So I am hesitant to be like "oh yeah, supported and part of supported range" hopefully she preforms it live so I can accurately judge the Eb5s...but really those were nice.

omg! *sacrifices a goat*

Edited March 1, 2017 by Kevin92

[AhMin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJCA8EcxoFc

 

I don't want to name every single high notes in the song cuz they're everywhere but how were her high notes at 2:38, 2:40, 2:44, 2:49, 2:52, and 2:55? 

2:38 not a bad C5, could've been more opened 2:40 pushed D5 and C5 2:44 supported A4 a bit too pushed from the chest 2:49 well placed C5 a bit pushed 2:52 closed D5 2:55 closed kind of shrill C5

[Messica]

I love this song, I think it is my favorite B-side~

 

Honestly, I don't dislike these Eb5s..like at all. They're well placed and seem supported, however there is quite a bit of editing on it for effect. So I am hesitant to be like "oh yeah, supported and part of supported range" hopefully she preforms it live so I can accurately judge the Eb5s...but really those were nice.

her F5s arent too bad either,just a bit shrill/pushed.

[C.Y.]

PHS aside, I'm interested in what about placement (or mask placement specifically?) has been proven false, if you feel like expanding on it!

it just doesn't exist. Resonance is produced mainly in the pharynx, or the "throat space" I'll call it, I don't like to use too many difficult anatomical terms. It says this everywhere, even on the front page, or any other source that has ever been called good here, like the singwise website or even a video on the science of singing posted in the blog. People start misinterpreting this "mask" stuff cuz some French opera dude decided to call it that because he felt stuff in his face. It was probably nasality, the French were mmm "stylistic", let's say, with their opera singing at times. That's why there are made-up voice types from the French like Falcon Soprano and Baryton-Martin. See the Italians did not use these voice types, and would have immediately been able to tell that a so-called "falcon soprano" was just a poorly trained heavy soprano voice.

 

But then this "mask" thing started catching on and people started trying to explain things scientifically with it. Then you have "placement" and "chest voice and "head voice" and people start taking this literally. resonance does not happen from your chest, or the top of your head, or the front of your face. There's a bunch of bone, flesh, etc etc etc. It's also quite silly when you think about it because the vibrations apparently travels downwards to the chest or upwards to the head and is resonated there, and then what? Travels back through the mouth which is the only place you see pop singers holding their mics in front of? Nope, resonance happens in the pharynx, which is above your larynx where your vocal folds are. They already tested blocking off the sinus cavities of singers and found that the sound was unchanged because resonance does not happen there.

 

But a very bad thing about trying to force sensations in front of your face is that a lot of singers that are trying to learn to sing end up with nasality and their "throat space" becoming too shortened. Generally what you hear in singing is a combination of having different muscle coordination of the thyroarytenoid (chest) and cricothyroid (falsetto) muscles, different larynx positions (or in other words, different space in the throat), what the amount of constriction is, which can be from anywhere like your face, neck, throat, upper torso, and the voice type of the singer. That's why opera singers are darker, they lower the larynx which enlarges this pharyngeal space. The maximum amount of thyroarytenoid (chest) can only be engaged in a low larynx position, not a neutral larynx, which is also why pop singers not only sound brighter but thinner as well. It has absolutely nothing to do with pop singers being more front face-y cheek bone-y and opera singers being more soft palate-y or low placement-y, it is just a matter of different throat space and chest voice coordination.

 

Anyway, this is all very old news. This forum is one of the few places I still see the terms being used literally by people. 

 

 

 

Honestly, I always had this impression that some people were too optimistic about technically correct singing.  If your voice is "ugly" to people, singing in a technically-correct fashion won't necessarily make it sound attractive (even if it presumably wouldn't sound painful, at least (but lots of listeners don't hear strain when it's there anyway), and would extend your singing life).  That's why it's totally understandable that people do all sorts of improper things to achieve the sound they actually want from themselves.

 

 

lemme clarify what I meant about what singers can get away with depending on voice type. I need to show some examples because it's not very clear just reading it in words

 

listen to 0:24 and 0:31, the C#4 and F#4, and to the head voice notes at 0:55 - 0:57

 

 

 

now listen to this operatic spinto soprano from 2:49 - 2:54, listen especially to the C#4s around 2:49 and the F#4 at 2:54, and to the head voice at 3:11 to 3:16

 

 

 

Whitney's larynx is lower than people think.

 

the reason why some women can still sing like this today is because it just sounds to people like it is "neutral". This is a matter of timbre, her voice produces very high frequencies which are perceived as being more mask-y front face-y cheekbone-y hard palate-y whatever kind of description that is typically used. Even these women don't do this 100% of the time though, Whitney sings more neutral and softer when she is singing lower in her songs, just like Patti Labelle always does, but their belting and head voice is with more depth/throat space, and it is doing exactly this that creates the timbre characteristics like sounding more "metallic" or "steely", what I call penetrating.

 

this is also the reason all men are believed to be "lyric". Because of the much larger size of our musculature, especially lower male voices, you could not get away with using this amount of throat space and chest voice lmao. Baritones like me ALREADY sound deep even when talking in neutral, the freedom to alter the timbre is much less. The sound becomes so much deeper and heavier than people realize, they are just used to hearing dudes singing in neutral and sounding relatively deep and so they think all women are "neutral". The lower frequencies that make a man's voice sound rounder and deeper get perceived as less mask-y. That's why I had that long-ass post about Avi Kaplan, see he does the opposite that the women do; he lowers the larynx in the low notes and raises it for the high notes. Because people do not think someone of his voice type would sound pretty or acceptable if he sang with that technique with his timbre becoming so much deeper than what people are used to hearing. There are plenty of larger voice types in men. A lot of the lower baritone voices would end up on the larger side, even if they are not dramatic. And tenors like PHS, Lee hyun, etc, they are at least spinto tenors in reality. PHS gets away with poorly lowering his larynx because of the existence of lower male voices like Hwanhee, Hwang Chi Yeol etc, who sound deep even when singing in neutral because they are baritones. When PHS does it, people think he just sounds like a "richer" tenor, since his voice does not sound deeper than the lower baritones even while doing it. As long as you can imitate a richer sound and do it in a stylistically appropriate manner, then congrats you are "natural", and "natural" is "neutral" to pop folk.

 

 

 

this is a dramatic baritone singing with a spinto tenor. listen to 4:49 to 5:09. The spinto tenor starts there and they harmonize on some notes, the spinto gets drowned out here but you can hear him hitting a C5 by himself at the end. Even if you think about this relatively speaking, the tenor has this higher voice that just sounds as if it is more pop-y, more mask-y front face-y cheekbone-y hard palate-y whatever kind of description you will generally hear about this sort of sound. The baritone would sound to pop people like he is doing this more low larynx-y low place-y chest voice-y whatever kind of sound. But the reality is they sound different because one person simply has bigass baritone vocal folds and the other has smallass tenor vocal folds, they are both doing the ***same*** thing technically. So even in pop, when the tenor lowers the larynx (like PHS), and it could be to any degree depending on the individual, it could pass more easily for "neutral" than a baritone doing the same thing, simply because of bias towards certain timbre characteristics of certain voice types. You can also hear from this video, I'm sure, why men cannot sing close to their true sub-types lyric, spinto, dramatic etc as easily as women, especially not the baritone.

 

anyway this is all quite complicated i'm sure. A lot of these misconceptions are the reason you don't see me talking about pop singers often. I listen to contemporary music as much as the next person, but actually discussing it is a real pain in my ass and I'm too lazy to try to argue things with all the misconceptions around. That's why I only talk about classical here, there is no bias against voice types singing powerfully, which is why they discovered all these sub-types that pop people so love to use in the first place.

Edited March 1, 2017 by C.Y.

[indigo]

lemme clarify what I meant about what singers can get away with depending on voice type. I need to show some examples because it's not very clear just reading it in words

 

Whitney's larynx is lower than people think.

 

the reason why some women can still sing like this today is because it just sounds to people like it is "neutral". This is a matter of timbre, her voice produces very high frequencies which are perceived as being more mask-y front face-y cheekbone-y hard palate-y whatever kind of description that is typically used. Even these women don't do this 100% of the time though, Whitney sings more neutral and softer when she is singing lower in her songs, just like Patti Labelle always does, but their belting and head voice is with more depth/throat space.

 

this is also the reason all men are believed to be "lyric". Because of the much larger size of our musculature, especially lower male voices, you could not get away with using this amount of throat space and chest voice lmao. Baritones like me ALREADY sound deep even when talking in neutral, the freedom to alter the timbre is much less. The sound becomes so much deeper and heavier than people realize, they are just used to hearing dudes singing in neutral and sounding relatively deep and so they think all women are "neutral". The lower frequencies that make a man's voice sound rounder and deeper get perceived as less mask-y. That's why I had that long-ass post about Avi Kaplan, see he does the opposite that the women do; he lowers the larynx in the low notes and raises it for the high notes. Because people do not think someone of his voice type would sound pretty or acceptable if he sang with that technique with his timbre becoming so much deeper than what people are used to hearing. There are plenty of larger voice types in men. A lot of the lower baritone voices would end up on the larger side, even if they are not dramatic. And tenors like PHS, Lee hyun, etc, they are at least spinto tenors in reality. PHS gets away with poorly lowering his larynx because of the existence of lower male voices like Hwanhee, Hwang Chi Yeol etc, who sound deep even when singing in neutral because they are baritones. When PHS does it, people think he just sounds like a "richer" tenor, since his voice does not sound deeper than the lower baritones even while doing it. As long as you can imitate a richer sound and do it in a stylistically appropriate manner, then congrats you are "natural", and "natural" is "neutral" to pop folk.

 

 

 

this is a dramatic baritone singing with a spinto tenor. listen to 4:49 to 5:09. The spinto tenor starts there and they harmonize on some notes, the spinto gets drowned out here but you can hear him hitting a C5 by himself at the end. Even if you think about this relatively speaking, the tenor has this higher voice that just sounds as if it is more pop-y, more mask-y front face-y cheekbone-y hard palate-y whatever kind of description you will generally hear about this sort of sound. The baritone would sound to pop people like he is doing this more low larynx-y low place-y chest voice-y whatever kind of sound. But the reality is they sound different because one person simply has bigass baritone vocal folds and the other has smallass tenor vocal folds, they are both doing the ***same*** thing technically. So even in pop, when the tenor lowers the larynx (like PHS), and it could be to any degree depending on the individual, it could pass more easily for "neutral" than a baritone doing the same thing, simply because of bias towards certain timbre characteristics of certain voice types. You can also hear from this video, I'm sure, why men cannot sing close to their true sub-types lyric, spinto, dramatic etc as easily as women, especially not the baritone.

 

anyway this is all quite complicated i'm sure. A lot of these misconceptions are the reason you don't see me talking about pop singers often. I listen to contemporary music as much as the next person, but actually discussing it is a real pain in my ass and I'm too lazy to try to argue things with all the misconceptions around. That's why I only talk about classical here, there is no bias against voice types singing powerfully, which is why they discovered all these sub-types that pop people so love to use in the first place.

 

Would this be a lower voice type (wiki says he was an operatic bass) singing contemporary, while employing a lower larynx?

 

 

 

This sound all but disappeared from contemporary sound post-war era. 

 

And kinda related but in general: Gaston or Richard White, his VA. I'm not sure if he's a good example, but I always loved his voice and how rounded it was.

 

But look what they did. I didn't need another reason to dislike this new BaTB but, the new Gaston's voice.... no!

 

 

 

0:37

[Avatarkyungsoo]

Taeyeon's vocal range video for her album! (by MrSkinnyJeanz3)

 

[HARAM]

Take what I say with a grain of salt but I love WJSN if you haven't noticed lol so i'm pretty familiar with all of them vocally. From what I noticed she's that typical "girly" style of singing, weak support, nasal, airy, she actually lets way too much air pass, and doesn't connect her vocal chords much soft, and lacking projection. Like in the Say Something cover contrast her singing with Dawon she's singing with airiness for the dynamics of the song, but you can hear the support, and fullness in her voice. Idk the specifics like how high she can remain relaxed, where she can keep tone in her lower range but if she's unable to support then she's probably in that weak or weak to average range. But i've never asked about her before it's just what I noticed so I may be wrong

 

she uses her throat a lot too like at 2:58 in the say something video

 

 

talking about throatiness I hate so much when Taeyeon gets throaty because it sounds so painful @ 2:41

 

thanks for replying!

[OldCottonAccount]

Just out of curiosity when Taeyeon first debuted how was her vocal technique and what she would rank as? She was only 16 or 17 iirc.

[Avatarkyungsoo]

Just out of curiosity when Taeyeon first debuted how was her vocal technique and what she would rank as? She was only 16 or 17 iirc.

they've mentioned that Taeyeon was some level of Above Average when she debuted  

[puellarum generatio]

 

 

Shouldn't it be tiring and painful to sing like that ?

[indigo]

 

 

Shouldn't it be tiring and painful to sing like that ?

 

its painful to listen to :/ 

[puellarum generatio]

its painful to listen to :/ 

 

idg how she can handle that.

[abra]

 

 

the reason why some women can still sing like this today is because it just sounds to people like it is "neutral". This is a matter of timbre, her voice produces very high frequencies which are perceived as being more mask-y front face-y cheekbone-y hard palate-y whatever kind of description that is typically used. Even these women don't do this 100% of the time though, Whitney sings more neutral and softer when she is singing lower in her songs, just like Patti Labelle always does, but their belting and head voice is with more depth/throat space, and it is doing exactly this that creates the timbre characteristics like sounding more "metallic" or "steely", what I call penetrating.

 

Wouldn't a voice producing higher frequencies just mean hitting higher notes?