Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[fire_dagwon]

Hey guys! I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before (I couldn't find any relevant posts even after I searched for them) but I just wanted to ask who are the true baritones in k-pop and Korean music as a whole right now? I of course used to think the usual suspects (V, Jaehyun, Sungjae, Seungyoon, Hwanhee, Hyunmin, Youngjae) were baritones, but they've gotten re-examined in recent years and I believe the current consensus is that most if not all of the previously thought baritones are actually tenors. 

I guess that leaves John Park, Roy Kim, Hwang Chi Yeul, Han Dong Geun, and maybe Ko Woo Rim of Forestella...? Ko Woo Rim is definitely more debatable and honestly I don't think Han Dong Geun is a baritone, so that just leaves John Park, Roy Kim, and Hwang Chi Yeul?

Edited September 18, 2022 by fire_dagwon
Conciseness

[fire_dagwon]

2 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Uhh, I haven’t really been searching out for baritones per se, but the most certain one would definitely be John Park. Which is a shame, cuz he’s not that impressive vocally lmao, so turns out there’s no belter baritones. 

First of all thanks for the quick reply!

Yeah John Park is indisputably a baritone, but I thought he was considered at least Proficient? Did he regress or something?

If Hwanhee is still considered a baritone he would probably be the best contemporary baritone today, at least by belting standards. It's either him or Scott Hoying but I honestly don't think Scott Hoying is a baritone either lol.

2 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Hwang Chi Yeul ,on the other hand, is weightier and often adds some artificial darkness/muddy quality to his voice (a lot of tongue issues follow). But the way he sings in the 4th octave is still very tenor. 
 

@2:18, singing a lot of G4s and G#4s in this performance. As tense and gritty as it is, the way he sings those shows that he’s a tenor regardless. A baritone would have a field trip singing in that range with that kind of intensity. Basically, Chi Yeul is like a rougher, messier K-Will.

Wow it's honestly surprising to hear that both of them but especially Hwang Chi Yeul are tenors! I thought for sure that Hwang Chi Yeul at least would be a true baritone. But yes I do agree with you, his voice is incredibly gritty and throaty, and at times I really can't tell if it's supposed to be stylistic or unintentional. I thought his technique was decent, but hearing you say he's a rougher, messier K-Will when K-Will already has plenty of technique problems of his own is very worrying lol ...  do you know his supported range? He supports up to F#4/G4 right?

Also, would a baritone really have trouble belting up to G4/G#4 with intensity like you said? I thought that A4 was around the maximum a baritone could belt with intensity before completely fizzling out, so it would be very high for them yes but not unreachable right? 

Actually Hwang Chi Yeul actually does belt a Bb4 here at 2:28 and while it's incredibly strained it does somewhat sound "intense" so I guess that's more proof he's a tenor lol.

Also quick side note but Kim Chang Yeon, the tenor Hwang Chi Yeul is singing with, also sounds very good. I've never heard of him before but his Bb4's sound supported and resonant, at least to my untrained ears lol. I don't know about that B4 at 4:19, but everything lower than that sounds very nice.

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Han Dong Geun is a tenor yep.

I knew it. Do you know his supported range?

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Woorim is arguably a tenor too, but he kinda overdoes his whole ‘baritone’ role thing so I haven’t even heard him sing above Eb4s (or even talk without that low larynx) but I’d say he’s a tenor too. There can be tenors with strong lows, especially the ones who are more into classical.  

He's a tenor? I don't know about that tbh. While yes he does sound very light here, his lows are way too developed, weighty, and full to be a tenor methinks. Ha Hyun Woo is a tenor with phenomenal lows as well, but you can hear how even that is relatively light and breathy compared to the natural weight of a baritone.

Although I do think Ko Woo Rim is also lowering his larynx quite a lot to achieve that sort of sound, but again I'm untrained so I can't detect that kind of stuff easily lol.

3 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I still think Chanyeol is a baritone but yeah that’s it. There might be some others in K-pop groups but I doubt they sing much. 

Do people still think BTS' rap line are baritones? There's also two solo artists named Jung Joon Il and Jung Joon Young, but Jung Joon Il is most definitely a tenor and Jung Joon Young might be a true baritone but he's no longer active in the music industry anymore cuz he was involved in the biggest k-pop scandal of all time lmao.

[fire_dagwon]

1 minute ago, Tsabar said:

More debatable as in you think he is a tenor ?? He is a lot safer than some other names you wrote there.

No no more debatable as in he's more likely to be a baritone than tenor.

Although I'm like 99% sure he's not a bass which is his official position in Forestella.

[fire_dagwon]

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

John Park didn’t regress, he’s just not as impressive as we initially thought . Not sure bout his ranking just yet, I just listen to him generally and he barely puts in effort in his mixed. Like, very barely. I don’t remember the last time he even tried to ‘belt’ something out, he mostly just goes for some lazy phrases around D4s - E4s, which isn’t exactly Proficient worthy when you’ve got tenors like Hongki or Junsu resonating consistently lol. He does have well rounded registers, but overall, he just doesn’t seem to have the capacity in his mixed range. It’s can be quite raw and unrefined too. 

Oh wow I didn't know that lol I was just going off of his KVA profile and I think before Ahmin got rid of the ranking system John Park was rated as Proficient.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, Hwanhee isn’t a baritone. He’s just a heavier tenor who sings darker and sort of neglects anything beyond G#4. I think Scott Hoying is indeed a baritone. He was never on the same level as belts as Hwanhee (it’s not like he regularly sustained G#4s lol) and plus, he’s much brighter in coordination, which makes sense and is still comfortably within the expected sound for a baritone. 

I don't know... both Hwanhee and Scott Hoying belt past G#4 quite a bit from what I've seen at least? But you're obviously more knowledgeable than me so I'll take your word for it lol. If Scott is a true baritone then he's also the lightest baritone I've ever heard, his notes have practically no weight to them from what I hear lmao.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

John Legend is also a chestier baritone who’s alright in his mixed, though he has some stylistic tendencies according to his genre. He mixes around and above G4 range often, but the sound is definitely different. 

Chris Martin of Coldplay is also a true baritone right?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Baritones belting around G4/G#4 would be quite a different sound compared to tenors. The easiest way for me to explain it is by just imagining tenors struggling on C5s. They’ll have to adjust their vowels, more often than not, and their vocal tract also has to shaped to be more narrow. It’ll result in a more thinned out, pinched sound that obviously would take up a lot of effort and big adjustments to how they approach the notes. Think of the usual K-pop tenor navigating through a passage in the 5th octave. At best, maybe the advanced ones like Park Hyo Shin can manage the passages at C5 with more fullness but there’s still gonna be a degree of compression because of how much you have to adjust your tract. It’s possibly for tenors to land a more ‘free’ sound on C5s, but usually it’s a pushed, bright open vowel climax note kinda thing. You don’t hear them approaching back-to-back C5s with full on belting. 
 

That’s what baritones would most likely have to do when singing G4/G#4s lol. It’s possible of course, but not with the kind of intensity/approach that Chi Yeul did. He was just passing through the G4s just fine, except for his own issues, but he didn’t struggle with having to compress it or adjust his tract. Baritones don’t fizz out on or after A4 specifically, but it’s a very high note to be ‘belting’ on. I haven’t really heard a tenor ‘belting’ on C#5s without some obvious brightness and compression. 

Ah, so you're saying that a baritone belting up to G#4/A4 would sound incredibly thin, just like a tenor belting up to C5, but some more advanced and better trained baritones can still sound relatively full, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Then a baritone's "C5" is A4, right? Or would it be G#4?

A4 is a really tough note to hit for baritones. Even Park Hyo Shin as good as he is isn't 100% consistent on his C5's, hence why his KVA profile lists his supported range as B4/C5. Which is funny because he has supported and even resonated C#5's before lol.

Is there any contemporary tenor alive today who can fully, consistently support and resonate in the lower fifth octave? David Phelps maybe?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

About Changyeon, unfortunately no, he’s not really resonating anywhere in the performance. He’s just quite bright. @3:46, that’s thin and pushed, but it’s bright so it doesn’t sound too ugly. @3:52, again, thin and kinda more in the throat imo, even the G4 after isn’t that strong tbh. The G4 carries support, I meant that he doesn’t have the coordination to make it ‘resonant’ and it’s nothing much. @4:19, bright and high larynx. He’s an AA as far as I’ve heard. 

Meh, I don't really care about him because I don't know him or listen to him tbh. I just thought he sounded really open is all haha.

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Han Dong Geun also has some quirks that’s got to do with his larynx position (most prominently) but I think it mostly translates to messy tongue lol. He gets rather pushy, but I’ve heard some quite nice belts up to G#4s, with some nice vowels and passable resonance imo. His A4s get a bit too pushed for me though. There could be some better moments. He’s got a nice lower range too, at least around C3, and most probably carries it down in 2nd octave too. 

I agree. A4 is just about his limit and where he starts to get rather inconsistent. This A4 in Downpour at 3:20 is probably his best and most well-placed. It has some slight throatiness though.

His A4's in his busking performance of Amazing You starting at 3:43 and especially the one at 3:48 all sound very nice to me despite the major pushing.

If he's consistent up to G#4, then his rating would be at least AA right? Maybe AA to P? And what his voice type be? I know he can sound either very light or dark depending on the song, so for me it's really hard to judge. My best guess is he's a Full-Lyric Tenor?

18 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Low notes are one of the aspects to listen to when identifying tenor or baritones, sure, but we gotta take into account on how Woorim sings. It’s not a really solid comparison between him and other pop tenors. Woorim is straight up ‘classical’ and he’s singing with a lowered larynx 90% of the time. This isn’t necessarily bad (though it’s not exactly proper by opera standards) but it does change the sound of his lows. There are some operatic tenors who can sound strong down to F2-Eb2 areas still. And personally, I do hear some tenor quality even in the low notes. 

Like in that first video, I’d expect a baritone of that coordination to be way fuller, and passing through that passage with less intensity spikes. Even with just normal pop larynx, I can phrase around A2/G#2 in just speaking sort of tone and effort, without the added ‘dips’ into the notes like what he’s doing. And he’s at his limit around F2/E2 (almost fry), which is low even for baritones, but I think if a baritone with that coordination were to sing it, it would’ve been way more present and less muddy. 

Hm, I know he lowers his larynx quite a bit, but I didn't know that he had a classical background which caused him to do that. He's either an extremely low tenor or a true baritone, and I honestly think he's a baritone.

Oh and I didn't know you were a baritone either lol. Are you trained? I'm completely untrained lmao. I think I'm also a baritone or a very shitty tenor, I really have no idea because my lowest note is D2 (C#2 on a good day and idk about my fry) and my maximum comfortable belt is G#4. My A4 is inconsistent but improved a lot from my earlier years. Bb4 I can do once in a blue moon in my absolute best condition lol. I can falsetto up to C6 and maybe D6 on a good day.

5 hours ago, WWW3 said:

Are you guys sure that Seungyoon is a tenor? I have seen him used headvoice on F4 and I honesty don't think tenors can use the upper register that low.

I doubt it myself honestly, but apparently he is. In that tweet RATY posted he managed to squawk out a Bb4. With some decent training he could probably join the ranks of the prestigious Full-Lyric/Spinto Tenor squad in k-pop lol. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by fire_dagwon
Formatting

[fire_dagwon]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:35 PM, BabyKBK said:

While specifically labelling pop and kpop singers with sub-typing a isn't necessary at all,

Han Dong geun is heavier than a full lyric from that video. The "Full-lyric" label has been used as an umbrella term to generalise any voice that sounds bigger and mature in kpop and pop. A lot of these supposed Full-Lyrics would arguably be Spinto and Dramatics if classically trained. Meanwhile some "full-lyrics" like Celine Dion, Hyena Park, Lara Fabian and Sonnet Son are actually developed standard sopranos. Their voices carry very little weight and is actually light in timbre despite sounding matured.

I don't want to debate much but let's just say spinto and dramatic voice types have been under-identified. 

Super interesting take. I didn't think of it that way but it actually makes so much sense. A lot of supposed baritones who have been re-evaluated to be tenors may actually be a very low type of tenor like spinto and dramatic, since they're honestly too dark to be regular full-lyrics but not quite heavy enough to be true baritones.

Hopefully, I (and everyone else) can develop the ear and experience to pick them out someday!

On 9/18/2022 at 11:57 PM, Tsukimono said:

A4 is a tough note for both tenors and baritones, especially untrained ones. I'm an untrained tenor that started singing a few months ago, and I just started attempting recently to sing G4 and above since my second passaggio ends around F4/F#4. 

I sing very thin throughout, but after some warming up highest belt is G5. Anything from G4/G#4-G5 is extra thin for me personally. 

True, A4 is tough for tenors as well, me as an untrained tenor should know that very, very well lmfao. Although tbh, from my experience some of my tenor friends can hit the note relatively easily, hence why I initially thought I was a baritone.

And I have no idea what my passaggio are, how can I find out?

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

The same goes for Jamie actually, who was alos given top P rank but look how that turned out lol.

I actually don't lol, what happened with Jamie?

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I don't think he actively belts there afaik.

I mean he did do a cover of Waving Through A Wndow where he belts a Bb4 in the climax, but yeah besides that I can't think of any other examples 

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

@0:44, he was singing less bright here and not very refined mixing wise tbh (trying for that growly, chesty sound) but that's an F#4 and I haven' heard a tenor having to sing that note with that kind of stretch before. @1:05, same for this F#4. @1:52, F4, this time cleaner and brighter, it's still quite belty for him.  He's singing with that kind of intensity in range of like D4 - F#4.  @2:18, F#4s are squeezed and I think it's more of a high larynx kinda feel here (I'm not sure if this is old or he's just not that consistent here). See, it is possible for tenors to sound rough or overly pushed on F#4s if they're darkening their voice too much and all that, but I've never heard them have a high larynx on simple F#4s lol. @2:27, this attempt is better, he's struggling with the vowel/tract shaping(also not something i've found in tenors). @3:13, this sounds like a baritone belting in the middle to low 4th octave. Even tenors who put in effort to round their vowels on Eb4s don't have this intensity down there. To me, it's just like when tenors go for F#4- A4. @5:56, G#4 was his limit back then, you hear the comparison compared to Seungyoon blasting out a G4 randomly lol.

Yeah I guess I see what you're talking about... although a lot of that is Scott in his earlier years when his technique was less refined. Nowadays he sounds so much lighter and brighter, regularly phrasing into the middle-upper fourth octave, and sometimes even sustaining belts there. Perhaps he was a baritone back then and he's finally grown into his tenor self?

Also, and maybe this is just my inexperience and untrained ears talking, but I don't hear that much of a difference in intensity between Seungyoon's D4-F#4 range and Scott's. Hell if anything Seungyoon honestly sounds darker and more mature to my ears lol.

Watch everything in this video from 12:01 to 13:59, which cover's Scott's (and Matt's) belting range from A4 to B4. This video played a very large part of convincing me that perhaps Scott is an underexplored tenor.

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Meanwhile for Hwanhee: @4:40, it's not nearly as intense as Scott's. And he doesn't have to adjust much for it either. Tenors already start belting at F#4 of course, but it doesn't sound or feel particularly high from them, even with Hwanhee's more narrow vowel shaping sometimes. @4:47, a relatively brighter G4 from Hwanhee and it doesn't carry the sense of struggle that Scott does on F#4s. I also never heard Scott approach G4s head on like that before (there may be some moments that I dont know bout tho). 

Alos, yes, Hwanhee's A4 and above sounds hella compressed like what I mentioned to be what's expected of tenors by C5s or so. Well... that's just his doing lol. He just never really figured how to belt fully past G#4 and resorts to doing adjustments earlier than where he's supposed to. It's quite weird for a tenor but yeah. Before he went into this journey of his very heavy approach, Hwanhee was kinda bright in his early days. 

Ah the infamous Hwanhee vocal range video lol. And yeah, that makes sense, his voice becomes really thin starting at A4, but again, perhaps that's just because he never fully learned how to belt past that, and not necessarily because he's a baritone. I still think that an F#4 from Hwanhee and from current Scott would sound indistinguishable lol. Back then Scott was really pushing a lot but seems like his ease in the middle-upper fourth octave has improved a lot.

I will say though that that video of a very early Hwanhee when he was an actual idol who is singing and dacning is very convincing in terms of him actually being a tenor and dropping his larynx down to sound more "mature". It's like he and Scott are the inverse: Hwanhee got darker but Scott got lighter lmao.

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I wouldn't say Scott carries no weight per se, but I think we're used to expecting baritones to sound like heavy tenors lol. Not really. Lyric baritones like Scott will probably just sound like a pop tenor, just a few semitones lower. Not everyone will sound like Frank Sinatra, there's a very obvious, distinct coordination there that makes that sound. Pop baritones will sound poppy. 

Oh of course, which is why I thought and maybe still think that a lot of the heavier sounding male idols are baritones and not a lower type of tenor. Because honestly, more baritones in pop music is always a good thing because it's just so utterly dominated by tenors. Although just because someone sounds "heavier" doesn't necessarily mean they're automatically a baritone, obviously.

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Not necessarily incredibly thin, but it'll be rather obvious if they're going to try constant G#4s like Hwanhee does lmao. They might also be able to mix brightly like tenors in the 5th octave but there's limited examples for baritones.

Honestly what I'm more interested in are baritones who have a darker mix past G#4. Probably super rare but it would sound like sex on the ears.

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, David Phelps is one, and also someone who incorporates that more lowered larynx into his belts. There are probably others but I don't have anyone in mind so far. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone who can go brightly into those C5/C#5 area, we already have a few in Korean music who can maintain that at B4s so.. 

David Phelps is honestly an inhuman monster and indisputedly the best contemporary male singer alive. That man consistently resonates up until C#5, and he can even resonate a D5 here and there. I don't think his support extends up till Eb5, but I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to do it once or twice. He's probably he closest thing to a male Sohyang we have and no man today matches his skill level. Like I said earlier, Park Hyo Shin comes close despite his inconsistency around the C5 area, and in fact is probably the second best contemporary male singer in the world (I have no idea what Dimash's supported range is but I've heard it's actually not very good). Honestly most of those C5 inconsistencies come from performances of Wildflower where he got overly emotional and cried, so of course his singing was impacted. Plus, the man has resonated C#5's before, so I have no qualms giving him the crown of second best contemporary male vocalist alive kek.

Third is probably Naul and fourth is probably Jung Dong Ha, if I missed any other technically stellar male singers (western or Korean) let me know lmao.

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

A bit too pushed for me on that A4. The phrased ones maybeee I can give a pass but it's still meh for me personally. Yeah, he'd be at least AA. He doesn't sound as naturally weighty as K-Will/Chi Yeul to me even when he lowers his larynx a bit. 

Fair enough! I just love Han Dong Geun so much, I find his voice absolutely sublime to listen to and he's a major influence on how I personally sing lol. 

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah, I'm a baritone lol. No, I'm not trained, but I did practice a bit of the basics.

Man I'd honestly love to hear some of you guys sing! Is there a fancover/karaoke thread on this site anywhere?

23 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

If you're completely untrained and can have a comfortable belt at G#4, you sound like a straight up tenor to me lol.

Ehhh I have this clinching feeling you may be right. I thought my voice carried a lot of weight, but listening to recordings of myself I don't even sound as dark as Jung Seung Hwan lmao. My substandard ass just couldn't sing any high notes so I thought I was a baritone lol.

Honestly that tweet of Seungyoon doing scales with Sumi Jo is scarily similar to how I sound and what I'm capable of ? F4-G#4 is easy, A4 is doable but clearly uncomfortable and ever so slighty unstable, and Bb4 is currently incredibly inconsistent.

I'd love to have a proper vocal teacher really help me develop my instrument but with just how wide and varied teaching styles and techniques are I quite frankly don't trust anyone to give me the exact type of voice I want lol. CVT is the dominant teaching style in the western world and I'm not a huge fan of it so I'm kinda outta luck.

Edit: aight who gave me the clown emoji come on show yourself

Edited September 20, 2022 by fire_dagwon

[fire_dagwon]

53 minutes ago, BabyKBK said:

It made no sense that every single vocalist was put as either Light Lyric soprano/tenor, Full lyric soprano/tenor or Lyric Mezzo/Baritone.

Of course people find the spinto/dramatic label very intimidating because of descriptions like "extremely powerful and cuts through an entire orchestra" but the thing is we're listening to contemporary singers who do not sing in a way that's efficient in revealing their vocal weight.

From discussions with several people here there's actually a number of heavier (non-lyric) sopranos in kpop: Seo Moontak, Kim Yeonji, Ock Joohyun, Solji, Lee Younghyun, Eunji, SPICA BoA, Ann One etc. (You can put them next to SSY and Celine Dion, they are very much heavier and darker)

Most claimed mezzos like Hani, Yuqi and Lee Hi are just standard sopranos that place their voice low. I don't even think they're heavier soprano personally.

 

 

Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head. People are just afraid to use opera terms and voice types outside of a classical setting, but like you said, these are pop singers and quite frankly we may never know what their "true" vocal color and weight may be like. We have to make do with what we have and give our best educated guess even if we may be hesitant of the conclusion we come to.

I also agree that people like Moontak, Yeonji, and Solji probably are a very dark type of soprano, like borderline falcon quality. 

And yeah STAYC J is another idol commonly mislabeled as a mezzo. Nah, she's just another soprano that forces a dark, chesty quality.

Edited September 20, 2022 by fire_dagwon

[fire_dagwon]

23 hours ago, Tsukimono said:

This is how I felt as well. I was looking online through some singing websites and the old KVA blog and was really trying to figure out what type of voice I had(which is evident by some of my earlier posts on this forum), I saw some baritones maxing out their support and having a hard time on D4-E4 range and I sang those easily without any effort. Then seeing tenors sing G4 and above made me think I'm not a tenor, but I felt like I had to be one cause my first day of singing I sang F4-F#4's relatively easily. G4 is where my issues lied. After a few months I can kind of feel when my voice can go higher, and I've been able to push belts to 5th octave after some warmup(or drinking). 

Exact same boat, fam. I remember when G4 used to be the highest note in the world to me but after a while and loads and loads of karaoke sessions I can hit it in my mix with no issues whatsoever. I've yet to belt anything in the fifth octave at all though, I mean I have managed to squawk out a D5 exactly once in my life but I honestly think I was drunk when I did it so it was more so a heady scream than an actual belt. How do I know it was a D5? My friend was recording me and I identified the pitch afterwards lmao.

23 hours ago, Tsukimono said:

With passaggio, the way I sort of found mine out(aside from asking people here) was by singing various vowels through an app and hearing/feeling where my voice slightly changed the higher I went. Around C4/C#4 is where I started to stop taking full chest voice and had to lighten it just a bit, and above F4/F#4 is where I would thin out and assume that was my falsetto/end of my passaggio. When I started singing I couldn't sing G4's and I've been slowly working on it(mind you I have no training whatsoever, not even the basics).

That's really interesting, thanks. What app did you use? Maybe I can try the same...

23 hours ago, Tsukimono said:

I posted some short vids maybe like a month or two ago while I was trying to figure out my voice type. I put them on private since then, but I got some pretty good feedback. 

I am nowhere near brave enough to post myself singing  but it's nice to know that people here aren't judgemental and rather helpful!

22 hours ago, BabyKBK said:

In both examples they're singing in similar range yet it's very obvious Joohyun and Solji are on another level of weight compared to Celine and Sonnet. It doesn't make sense that they were all "full lyrics" 

Yeah it's super obvious in those examples. I actually thought Son Seung Yeon was a heavy soprano for the longest time until a YouTuber pointed out she's actually quite light; she's just very good at rounding out her vowels and employing a more neutral (or slightly lowered) larynx throughout her mix, especially in the fourth octave.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

For the males, we have 2 pretty close passagi. Tenors’ would be around C#4/D4 at their first one, then E4/F4 at their second one. Give or take one semitone depending on the weight of the tenor’s voice. 
 

For baritones, the passagi would be Bb3/B3 and C#4/D4, more or less. If anybody here knows better, do correct me but I do think this is the general rule. But depending on how you sing, you might not hear that much of a difference even as you climb up. You’d need to know what you’re looking for to hear properly. That’s why for these heavier tenors, the best way to determine their voice types isn’t how they sound at the baritones’ passagio (C#4/D4) but rather, at the tenors’ passagio (F4ish). Because these tenors can still have some respectable amount of output at C#4 area cuz it’s their first passagio anyways, if they go full chest then they’d still sound pretty heavy. But baritones singing at F4/F#4 would be rather distinct. 

I've heard that the passaggi for men are like a fourth apart so that lines up with what I've read. And that point about using the tenor's passagio to determine if a male singer is truly a baritone or not is really clever since a baritone's sound around that area would definitely be distinctly lighter than a tenor's.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

She was sort of misanalysed. Jamie doesn’t really have full resonance A4 - C#5, it’s just bright and quite lacking compared to the others. Plus, she’s got some quirks around A4 - B4 over the years. 

Ah that sucks. What would be her adjusted rating then?

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Nah, you don’t really ‘grow’ into another voice type at that age lol. Usually most singers have already settled into their fachs by their teenage years. Maybe the weight and all that may change (possibly, not sure) but it won’t drop until a few semitones down or even less likely, rise up lmao. 

Oh of course not lmao, that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if my previous comment was unclear, I was definitely not implying that a grown ass man is still "growing" into his voice lol.

I was moreso saying he was taking a "lighter approach" nowadays I guess? Easing off the low larynx (not that he really had one to begin with), and letting his "natural" brightness shine? Idk man I don't know how to explain it but I swear Scott's been sounding a lot lighter and brighter than he used to in his debut and early PTX days.

I guess just because he's belting and phrasing higher notes than what he usually does isn't definitive proof he's actually been a tenor all along, but something about him and the repertoire he sings now just doesn't seem like something he would have done years ago or even be comfortable attempting.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

The notes that Scott sang in the G#4 - B4 area didn’t really scream tenor to me. He doesn’t have a lot of presence there even though he was being quite bright. And it’s not like he wasn’t trying, some of those notes he was obviously pushing out but it just does not have the same feel as a tenor’s. Sure, there are cases where darker tenors struggle up there but that’s mostly cuz they’re not good at tenor-ing, and yet they still carry some better amount of strength up there cuz that’s where their voices mainly shine. Even Hwanhee has way larger better presence at G4/G#4 than Scott ever showed though he struggles a lot above that.

Hm, good points. I mean Scott is obviously struggling above like G#4, but honestly I don't know if I hear that much of a difference him and Hwanhee. They're both quite thin and bright, and going back to hear clips of them I couldn't tell you if one was a different voice type than the other.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Listen to that G4 and B4. Seungyoon has a pretty heavy texture to his voice, and less bright than Scott, but his presence and sound on those G4 and B4 are way more better even on the spot. Mind you, Seungyoon doesn’t have the best mixing either. Scott’s Bb4/B4 or even G4 is nowhere near this kind of sound, which is understandable considering he’s a baritone. Scott instead has to compress his vowels, narrow his vocal tract and go into slightly twangier/whiny mode to hit those notes like the B4 at @13:55. Those Bb4s in the Dear Evan Hansen song are pretty small too. Seriously, 90% of the pop tenors can shout/push/squeeze/strain out A4 - B4 with more presence even if they’re not advanced. Even the Bangtan gang regularly do it way easier and louder, it’s just a tenor thing. 

Please don't crucify me but I honest to God still don't hear much of a difference between even Seungyoon and Scott....lol. Hell, if anything, Scott seems to be the one with a fuller sound?

Again, this is probably just my inexperienced ears talking and I actually have no idea what I'm listening for, or maybe it's the sheer skill gap between Seungyoon and Scott hence why I perceive Scott to sound more full. I guess I'm just not used to baritones being able to belt or phrase that high, even a relatively light or pop-y one like Scott. I think at this point in time I'll tentatively accept that Scott's a true baritone, albeit the most tenor-like one I've ever heard. I absolutely loathe the term "baritenor" but Scott would probably be the one who fits the bill closest imo.

Also lmfao @ Seungyoon managing to scream out a G5. Honestly that was barely even a scream, it was like 95% air lol. Still, for someone as heavy and chesty as him, an impressive showing nonetheless.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Yeah but being a baritone in pop is harder really. Most songs are written in a high key. You’d have to be quite in tune with the foundations of vocal technique to even stand a chance at covering normal songs lol. Even for songs that seem low in range, like Jung Joon Il’s Hug Me with only E4s for the majority of the song, that’s a whole ass workout for baritones. It’s just written in a way that it’s consistently above your passagio constantly and it gets tiring fast, that’s why the baritones you can identify in pop so far are either skilled or have gone into rapping. It’s just been that way for a while. 

AHAHAHA yoooo you guys found Hug Me hard too??? I thought I was the only one  In Korea it's pretty much considered a "warm-up" song that guys sing to get their throats loosened up for the karaoke session, and since I found it hard to sing while my friends didn't, I was sure I was a baritone. It was honestly really humiliating that I was like the only one who couldn't do it while the rest of my friends could with ease, and we were the farthest thing from a trained singer there was lol.

Turns out, once again, it was just my substandard ass that couldn't belt in a tenor range at the time. After practicing it for months on end, I can safely say that I now also consider it my "warm-up song", and it has been for a few years now. Like really the song is structured very nicely to loosen up your voice, as it starts low and slow and gradually builds up for a climactic G4 belt.

The good thing about pop music though is that it's easily transcribable and you can either lower or raise the key to suit your voice better. There's absolutely no shame in changing the key of a song to suit your voice, and in fact that's what you should be doing. There are many songs that I couldn't even attempt in the original key years ago that I can now sing in a higher or even the original key now. But I get your point, changing the key of a song is a useful thing to do, but having more songs written in a key that's singable for your voice type in the first place would be even better. I absolutely agree with this sentiment, and I wholeheartedly hope it happens too.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Darker mix past G#4?? I’ve rarely ever heard of tenors applying lowered larynx all the way into 5th octave except for people like David Phelps (who isn’t exactly mainstream music lol) so I’d doubt you’d find a lot of those unless you want to listen to opera. That’s just a high expectation. And ngl, I think they’d sound a bit whiny rather than sexy . 

Lol I just have this expectation/fantasy that baritones belting in the upper fourth octave to sound intense and commanding as fuck.

But yeah you're right I probably can't find this outside of opera rip.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Ngeh, I’d be careful of saying someone is indisputably the best vocalist etc and whatnot. There might just be someone out there that we in a small community don’t know about lol. And David Phleps isn’t perfect either overall. I wouldn’t really compare him to Sohyang either, they’re mixed aren’t even that similar aside from how they both use lowered larynx even as they climb up.

Sorry, I should have specified that they are the best vocalists alive, that we currently know of. That's my bad, I guess that much would have been obvious but I guess not .

And yes, of course nobody is perfect, because at the end of the day even David Phelps and Sohyang are just humans. Also, I was not directly comparing those two at all, just saying that they're similar in the sense that they can belt and resonate well past what's typically expected of contemporary singers of their gender.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Sure, there’s probably not a lot of candidates but I’d personally not call any of these people inarguably the best male vocalists alive . 

Eh, I don't see why not honestly. In terms of contemporary music, men being able to resonate into the fifth octave is the top percentile of all singers. It's incredibly hard to even have a passable belt in that kind of range, but to be so in control of your voice that you've mastered it enough to not only support but resonate up there is god-tier levels of good.

So far, only a handful of (known) men can do it well/consistently, and they happen to be David Phelps and some Koreans. Objectively, these men are the best contemporary singers in the world. If there are any others out there (and believe me I really do want more to be out there) I'd love to hear about and geek out over them as well.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

I don’t know bout any karaoke thread around here. Some people post covers here and whatnot but usually to ask for feedback. I did that a long time ago but I was a newbie here so , got somewhat better since then.

That's crazy lol how does a forum dedicated to k-pop (and arguably the biggest/most well-known in the western hemisphere) not have one single karaoke/fancover thread yet? That's honestly really surprising.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Jung Seunghwan is also a tenor who uses heavier approach, a slightly lowered larynx than the bright tenors. Plus, he’s quite consistent with it and doesn’t have any occurring tongue problems as well. Even with that though, he’s not as weighty as K-Will gang so I don’t think he’s into that dramatic subtype personally. 

Oh yeah of course, I wasn't implying he was a baritone or anything. I'm just saying that I happen to sing even lighter than him and yet I still thought I was a baritone lol.

But it's nice to know he's pretty good amongst his peers! He's also one of my favorites and biggest singing inspirations as well. The only glaring issue I've found with him is some very apparent nasality, which seems to be a recent development unfortunately. Do you know his supported range? I'm assuming F#4/G4?

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

For untrained singers, it’s easy to underestimate how much work these vocalists put into their voices. Even the Average vocalists. Honestly, it’s a lot . Not trying to make this about me, but yeah from my experience, it takes quite a bit of work to get those cords working and strengthen up. Even ‘supporting’ or just sounding decent when sustaining takes a lot of time. It works semitone by semitone, and that takes a longgg while. Even with proper guidance, some takes years to really polish themselves and even then it’s not the peak. It takes considerable talent to reach the likes of Good tier and whatnot imo. 

Exactly. People underestimate the amount of skill some vocalists have, even amongst the A/A-AA tier. Hell, once you get to AA, you start producing consistent resonance, which is already a huge accomplishment and something many singers go through their entire life without ever doing.

21 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

It depends on what kind of voice you want to train yourself to have. If it’s just the usual bright pop coordination like 80% of K-pop tenors, then that’s honestly doable if you self train, provided that you know what you’re doing lol. It’s not too complicated imo. For the more advanced stuff like applying lowered larynx coordination though, that will need a lot of time and good guidance. 

I figured. I kinda just want to sound decent and consistently support with the occasional resonance, so maybe around A-AA or maybe AA if I really wanted to push myself. I don't even have any plans of performing or going pro either, I just really like singing and want to sound the best I can.

Edit: Also, Jesus H. Christ, I seem to have started a war in this thread regarding passaggi... I'm so sorry guys that was absolutely not my intention I just wanted to know how to find mine ;-; 

Edited September 21, 2022 by fire_dagwon

[fire_dagwon]

20 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Oh yeah, I know you didn’t think he’s a baritone, it’s just a fun fact bout him lol. 
F#4/G4?? Nope lmao. Right now, I’d give him G#4/A4 or just A4. He does get into his nose a bit (plenty of singers do) but he knows when to open up and his resonance can be quite sizeable. Plus, he’s one of the ones with darker vowels too even though there’s some issue with him being tense.

Wait what???? He's that good?

That puts him in AA to P tier at least then, doesn't it? Holy shit that makes me so happy to know one of my favorite artists is that good! I thought he was quite tense past G4, but it was again my inexperience making me believe things that aren't there lol. How are his lows like then?

20 hours ago, ZRH23 said:

Also I think I remember commenting on that Son Seungyeon thing on YouTube but not sure if that was in reply to you or another user lmao 

If it was a SoulVelvet video that was me lol

2 hours ago, NoelVys said:

There are a lot of tenor-like baritones actually, one of the users here that popularized the baritone-tenor discussion has a list of that in the thread. Just so you can make a comparison, Troye Sivan is probably the most tenor-like baritone I've ever heard. 

 

Another one is Chris Martin, Coldplay's lead singer, who I think a lot of folks agree is a baritone. Ahmin himself also sounds very tenorish with how light he goes, but he's a baritone.

These guys are really tenor-like to the point I doubt their baritone status, but they're included in that list of light baritones: Liam Payne, Justin Bieber, Shawn Mendez, Charlie Puth. 

Out of everyone you listed I think only Chris Martin is a true baritone.

Do people actually think Troye Sivan is a baritone? That's a first.

When thinking of pop baritones the names that come into my head are Michael Buble, John Legend, Seth MacFarlane...

2 hours ago, DoraemoNobita said:

Voice type aside, does Chris Martin support?

Also wondering this!

1 hour ago, Tsukimono said:

Is she producing resonance? Some of her B4's sound really good(resonant maybe?) but I'm imagining Nayul as the competition for Proficient... I'm not sure if I hear the same midrange resonance as Nayul in the B4-C#5 area but she still sounds good to me, yeah 

That being said I really like that Eb5 @1:16 

1 hour ago, BabyKBK said:

She's more of an all-rounder, her head voice and lows are much better so I'd place her above Nayul. 

I agree she sounds very good and healthy all-around. She'd get a huge boost in popularity if she came on Immortal Song or something.

Also, apologies if this was discussed already before (I couldn't seem to find it even after trying to dig through this thread), but what are the supported ranges of Kim Bum Soo, Lim Chang Jung, Ha Hyun Woo, Kim Tae Woo (g.o.d), and Shin Yong Jae?

[fire_dagwon]

1 hour ago, BAZISSINO said:

Kim bumsoo can support : Bb2 - Bb4/B4 at his best (I didn't have enough time to analyze his consistency on the lows)

Lim chan jung : I only know he can handle At least F#4 (at least average)

Ha hyungwoo : Bb2/B2 or B2/C3ish - A4/Bb4

Kim taewoo : can support down Bb2 too (again not sure about his consistency here) he has troubles above G#4 imo ( he was given Bb4 back then but some are high larynx so )

Shin yongjae : Eb3 - G#/A4 

Ps : all those are only approximative i would make more relisten sections when I make my male vocal chart/ranking 

 

Wow thanks Baz! Honestly if anyone here knew it was probably you lol. 

Yeah they're all about what I expected, perhaps except for maybe Kim Tae Woo who I thought would have had consistent A4's. Ha Hyun Woo is also maybe a little lower than I expected since I thought he'd at least be able to match Kim Bum Soo's peak. 

I'm really looking forward to the full male vocalist ranking chart Baz! When are you expecting to release it? 

[fire_dagwon]

22 hours ago, NoelVys said:

Isn't that dude a tenor? I remember his E4s and F4s sounded less intense that what I'd expect a baritone to pull out. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he was, Michael Buble might be a tenor who sings in a baritone range.

14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

Woorim is a tenor. There's absolutely no way anyone can be accurately detecting vocal flaws in classical technique, much less voice typing a very badly trained classical singer if they haven't studied or listened extensively with any classical background, and no one here has. Especially on this topic of classical baritones, unless you are a classically trained baritone or learned from someone who is. There's a bazillion Woorim-sounding tenorbois out there right now in the classical world faking as "baritones" whether it's in the professional opera world or graduate students of opera in prestigious universities like Juilliard. Anytime you see a currently famous classical singer today call themself a "baritone" or clearly even a "bass" in Woorim's case, they're probably a tenor, and so are 95% of male voice teachers in music schools, professors in universities, online youtube coaches, etc.

first off, Woorim is ridiculously muddy sounding and artificially thick with tongue tension. So really the biggest thing to even bring up first is that his technique is really, really bad, not whether this guy is a baritone or a tenor. 

14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

^E4s and F4s from 6:20 - 8:00. It's not simply about "dark and heavy" which some amateur tenor can artificially create, it is balancing the darkness with a very clear, piercing ring/squillo. Compared to Woorim he sounds like he's belting in a low larynx position

14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

This is Woorim's duet partner in that masked singer video by the way, if you want to hear what Woorim would similar to with less T O N G U E T E N S I O N @2:58 he is lowering his larynx, just not completely forcing/depressing it the way he and Woorim did in their oatmeal commercial of a masked singer performance. @4:28 he starts singing with a depressed larynx again

That's quite convincing, I'll give you that. And I'll be completely honest, I think that the idea that baritones are the most common male voice type is a myth or something. To me, it seems clear that tenors are by far and away the most common male voice type.

14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

So we have to hear what a real baritone sounds like, one who sings correctly in a low larynx position

See that's the kind of dark sexiness I was talking about before. Something about a true baritone belting in that G#4/A4 range just hits different.

14 hours ago, C.Y. said:

^more of woorim's heavily tongue tensed, fake "baritone" sound. I want to throw a pokeball at him, total muk timbre.

Convincing and hilarious. I think I love you.

15 hours ago, C.Y. said:

ok let's not give Sumi Jo too much credit lol, she praised V for being a "baritone" and singing Nessun Dorma, and V is a tenor. She's not some sort of knowledgeable baritone expert. Idk Korean so it's hard to even tell if she was calling Seungyoon a tenor @0:39 (which he obviously is) or whether she was simply surprised he could do "tenor things" since she praised V for doing "tenor things" as a "baritone". Maybe someone can clarify.

Montserrat Caballe was an actual world class opera singer and a far greater singer than Sumi Jo, yet she incorrectly believed that Freddie Mercury was a baritone even though Freddie was a very obvious tenor. So even being a great singer doesn't mean you have holistic knowledge on voices.

Thank you. Just because someone is an opera singer doesn't mean their word is gospel. I'm not claiming to know better than them, but most of the time they're very clearly wrong.

15 hours ago, C.Y. said:

The greatest operatic baritones in history were unsurprisingly taught by baritone teachers, they did not come from soprano teachers and a very small minority of them had tenor teachers. Imitation is the greatest tool in learning to sing (that's how we learned to speak as babies), and baritone students needed baritone teachers who obviously have experience singing as baritones to demonstrate to them "covering" on the passaggio onwards. 

A-fucking-men.

8 hours ago, BAZISSINO said:

It really depends on my Mood and how hard Life swing me we will see ,so far with my back issue it not anyttime soon unfortunately 

Aw man that sucks to hear but your health comes first of course. I hope you get well soon!

[fire_dagwon]

2 hours ago, Lovelinuz said:

Is the E5 at 3:11 supported?

 

Unfortunately no, but I think the Eb5 at the end may have been.

[fire_dagwon]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:11 PM, Lovelinuz said:

At what point is a note considered an upper belt? Is it D5 for soprano/A4 for tenor? or a semitone above that?

It's debatable but I think Eb5 for sopranos and Bb4 for tenors.