Official Vocals thread (READ OP FIRST)

[Secre]

I tried to find any answer I've given to this question cause I didn't want to type out a lot but I couldn't...so the thing is liking his voice more or not, that's your personal opinion and you're entitled to it but other people have theirs too. The difference between other people's opinions and what I can tell you is that what I'm telling you is an educated opinion based on technique not my personal preference.

 

The gap between DK and Seungkwan is pretty noticeable. They both have support, they both have clean clear support in their voices, which already sets them apart from every other vocalist in Seventeen. None of the other ones can support almost at all, only DK and Seungkwan have that managed and learned. The difference between them is that DK sings within a narrower range and doesn't usually mix very high. He stays within a pretty narrow range and tends not to strain too much because the higher notes are given to Seungkwan but in the following examples I'll show you, you'll hear the difference. The difference is DK seems to have a slightly better lower range than DK, with a bit more support but his support is indeed limited only up to F#4, above that he becomes tight, shouty and strained. Whereas Seungkwan maintains a lot more support and a better more opened approach up to F#4 and even above, up to G#4. Now that is also enhanced by the fact that DK is unable to produce resonance whereas Seungkwan produces it quite consistently. So the gap between them is pretty clear, Seungkwan has better technique than DK without a doubt. Now whomever you like more, that's up to you and entirely up to you. People have some sort of problem with objectively saying someone is better than someone else and confusing that with liking someone more than someone else. If the other people you know like DK more, that's fine. That's a preference, not an objective acknowledgment of vocal skill and I hope you all know this.

 

 

"I remember Ryeowook mentioned something about DK singing a part of the song correctly in pitch that Ryeowook couldn’t get right in studio. 0:40 that was a loud breath into the microphone lol It startled me a bit. 0:51 quick Bb2, not good but just noting. The rest is above F3, he sounds comfortable aside from some nasality. I hear some more airiness than before but it’s just for the sake of the song. 1:23 quick G4, tight. 1:27 that F4 was tighter than it needed to be. 1:30 his mouth is not opened enough, his jaw is locked and he’s not allowing it to drop to open up his singing more. His falsetto transitions aren’t bad, but there’s a noticeable drop in tone quality. His G4’s all sound tight throughout the choruses, which again isn’t news to me. 1:50 I hear more support here on those F4’s, 1:53 shouted but better jaw position. His pitch is more or less correct throughout. 2:41 2:43 2:44 he tries WAY too hard for those G4’s, they shouldn’t be as hard as he makes them sound like they are for him. He needs to relax and open up, those are just G4’s for him, that’s not supposed to be that difficult. This song has too many G4’s for him, that’s not song I’d like to hear from him. I’d rather hear Seungkwan singing this cause he could handle the G4’s. 3:45 That was really strained, he just shouted that Bb4. He knew though, that it wasn’t comfortable for him. The rest of the song he sounds tired like this song was a lot of work and he’s pushing his way through the rest of it."

 

 

"Seungkwan is singing in quite a comfortable range for him, 0:52 slight tightness around those G#4’s because of the vowel he was singing, but he sounds relaxed and supported throughout his part. Woozi sounds a bit too thin, a bit too airy. Even though he’s singing softly, he is using his throat a lot more than fully relying on his vocal cords in order to sing. I am not sure who’s singing the most in the chorus, but they’re singing up to G#4, I’m going to guess Seungkwan is the one handling it because it sounds like him. 1:49 DK sounds just fine as well for now, he sounds relaxed, this is a comfortable key where he can support comfortable. 2:11 and he used falsetto instead of mixing the G#4’s, which kept him from straining his voice in this range. Junghwan and Joshua also have the same issues as Woozi, with using their throats too much even within a reasonably low range due to lack of support. 3:08 his voice is kind of stuck in his throat and nose, which make him unable to project and maintain the pitch. 3:26 tension in this range, DK sounds tight up there above G4 but it’s not too bad. He likes to use his falsetto. 3:53 tightness on the Ee vowel, but that’s usual for most vocalists. 4:09 closed throat C5, very tight, high larynx. I mean reasonably speaking, within the lower part of the song, DK and Seungkwan did relatively well, Seungkwan can handle singing up to G#4. The rest of the members still lack true support, but that’s been established before."

 

“SeungKwan controls his voice really well when singing softly, that was pretty relaxed and stable, the beginning. 1:05 slightly tight in that part. That is a very comfortable one octave range, F#3 ~ F#4 for the most part, 2:19 A4 with some tension, he cracked shortly after so he might not have been well warmed up prior to this. He has very stable support throughout. 2:40 ish around that after, he has good placement. 2:50 good placement, but a bit pushed out. In the second clip he is singing airy and soft on purpose, but he is complete in control of his voice, he has very good pitch overall. His transitions into falsetto are nice too.â€

 

 

 

“Fifth time I’m asked about this.. lol

I’ve seen this video before, it was shown to me. Both of them have very nice and forward tones, very nicely supported, some strain and tension happens in the higher parts but they can switch well enough into their falsettos. Their lower ranges are a bit overly quiet below E3 but they can carry some tone, they are at least average vocalists though so they’re definitely stronger than Kahi, Jungah or Lizzy.â€

 

After further inspection the estimated ratings for DK and Seungkwan are average and above average respectively.

 

You didn't quite provide the time stamp but I'm going to assume 2:20 as the first high note you probably had in mind, the D5 of Into The New World that is. If they sound pleasing or not and you're numb to the strain, I envy you. I can't ignore the tension in the notes as it's become quite obvious to me. Strain sounds different depending on what kind of strain it is. Some people strain with chest dominant mixed voices, some with heady mixed voices, some people push air pressure, some people tighten their throat muscles, some people let their larynxes raise, some people have tongue tension, all types of strain can be combined to create different types of strained qualities. With the D5 at 2:20, the quality is closed, pushed and inward. The sound is mostly inside the back of her throat, the vowel is closed because the throat muscles are closing around her larynx and she's pushing so the sound is compressed. There's very obvious strain but sometimes her strain can be whinier and screechier, it depends on where she is in her range or what kind of mixing she's using. 

For DK, locking his jaw causes jaw tension, and nasality right? I think it's supposed to cause nasality since your voice has no where to project but his nose, but I can't hear it.

[Secre]

No, locking your jaw doesn't cause nasality it just causes jaw tension which leads to a lack of freedom and makes higher notes harder to hit, it also traps your sound in your jaw making the time quality heavy and flat. True nasality is really only caused by a lower soft palate or if you are really projecting and placing your sound in your nose. Jaw tension is a problem I have lol. Jaw tension for me causes my sound to be stuck in my jaw and it ends up projecting from there...which isn't good lol. It causes my tone not be as bright/rounded and leads to flatness. Also, it makes my top notes harder to sing. I feel I am working well to solve this problem lol. The reason why I have this problem is because when I sing, I drop my jaw done too much and essentially I push it done and my jaw also juts forward which isn't an optimal position lol. So to counteract this I monitor how far I drop my jaw and try to keep my jaw pushed back(the natural position) it takes a lot of self monitoring lol. This is why mirrors are good to sing into lol so you can monitor what you doing physically with your jaw and lips.

Oh, okay thank you I understand. Does jaw tension have a definite sound or do you have to look at their mouth to see?

[Secre]

Well, it is a type of tension so there is a definite sound quality that can be heard, but i have no idea how I would describe it Lol. I believe your question is that can you hear of someone has jaw tension or can you only tell by seeing+hearing the vocalist, right? Well, it depends on your ears and experience. If you have the ears and experience you can easily tell if someone has jaw tension without looking at them and just hearing, but if it was like me I would have to see and hear the vocalist to be confident in my answer. Blindly listening I Could tell there a type of tension going on, but specifically what I would be half guessing half not so I would probably need to see what they are doing with their mouth, but idk jaw tension can be obvious at times.

Oh yeah that's what I meant thank you. I think tongue tension, and throat tension are pretty easy to spot, but i've never heard jaw tension, only when I look at singers like Jaejoong, and Woohyun where you can see their jaw shaking on high notes sometimes.

[Secre]

Quiz time~ just answer in a spoiler box or something. 

Just tell me if these notes are strained, supported or resonant that's it. No tricks, just that. Explanations to your thinking are very much welcomed.

 

1:41 and 4:35

 

 

2:51

 

 

3:09

 

 

0:45

 

 

Eunji

1:41- Resonant

4:35 high larynx, very tight

Tiffany

Pushed, and with a high larynx, too chesty

Chen

I'm not sure but i'll go with strain,

Baek Yerin

Resonant? I think I'm not sure again.

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by BlackBlue

[Secre]

 

IS the note at 3:11 strained? I think it's pretty closed.

[Secre]

Yes quite strained.

 

 

I think the song is a bit too fast paced so the pitch isn't so precise, you should practice it at a slower tempo to make sure you get the pitch very dead on. Also practice without so many R's, there are too many consonants when you sing and not enough vowels, so I barely hear your voice when you sing. 

 

As for the sped up tempo thing, it's like when you use a high pitch kind of effect. It makes you sound better. 

 

Like

 

 

 

Or 

 

and 0:45

 

I think I gave the wrong timestamp I wasn't meaning the falsetto. I meant the mixed voice directly before.

[Secre]

So I was talking to my voice teacher the other day and she mentioned that one of her favorite operatic vocalist was Kathleen Battle. So I decided to check her out~

 

 

 

Her voice is so pretty!! She also has a really clear tone, I like it. In case you are wondering, she is a Light Lyric Soprano.

 

My voice teacher mentioned she loved Kathleen's voice, but her facial expressions she could do without lol she called them "weird contortions."

Doesn't she have a jaw tension problem?

[Secre]

 

Was this note at 1:04 supported it sounds pushed but maybe it has some support

Edited February 8, 2017 by BlackBlue

[Secre]

A pushed C5

Thank you, I have another question 

 

Is the note at 1:33 resonant after the strained one.

[Secre]

No not resonant, too much constriction and pushing.

Oh okay thank you.

[Secre]

throwback wednesday 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWUrIUUvZnE

 

do you guys remember this mess? 

Choa queen of tongue tension, her fans blaming it on her having a "deeper voice" tho 

[Secre]

I always wondered whether or not Haechan can support but

 

NVM @ 0:18-0:22. A mess

Edited February 12, 2017 by BlackBlue

[Secre]

Hey~ I've been lurking this thread for some time, I knew nothing about vocal technique so it was pretty interesting to learn some new stuff. I have a question though: It has been mentioned a few times that singing is an acquired skill rather than something you were born with. What I've been wondering is if it's possible for someone to be a very good vocalist "naturally", without having taken lessons or anything? Like, is it possible for someone to have support or even resonance just like that, without ever doing anything for it? Or does everyone just start off as a weak vocalist?

Pretty much everyone starts off as weak or so. I think there are very few who people who know how to support naturally, and breathe properly but that's rare and even then they would still need training to develop their registers, learn proper placement and tone production, etc, so yeah I think everyone needs training

[Secre]

Is this note at 2:33-2:37 resonant I think it's supported and has an opened placement.

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by BlackBlue

[Secre]

No not resonant...YeonJung has such a constricted sound... She pushes the note so there really isn't much freedom and she's not really opened...the support isn't bad, but she's still pushing it. If you compare it to Dawon..who sings right after her Dawon is much more open and less constricted.

Oh I knew not to get my hopes up since Yeonjung does usually have those problems, but I was hoping since I think Ahmin mentioned once that Yeonjung can produce resonance just not consistently.

[Secre]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UOMpvW2Dno

The girl at 0:25 is using her throat muscles too much right, i'm not sure about Somin and whether or not she supports tho. She starts signing at 0:53

[Secre]

 

Ahmin answered this about K.A.R.D

 

 

It seems that both support

 

Thank you i'm pleasantly surprised maybe I was letting DSP's track record get the best of me I wasn't expecting much

[Secre]

Click here to view the Tweet

 

Did Taehyung hit a F4 followed by a G4 in this video?

 

Also one more question please, how long before his voice deteriorates faster than Bom can gobble down a corn?

 

Edit: Idk how to embed tweets.

The caption lmfao anyways did you meant G5 and not G4 right?

I asked about that specific C5 before on the blog and ahmin said it's partly the chestiness, partly fatigue, and partly the sound system. But as K said, it isn't really that different. 

 

ugh compilation of Tiffany Eb5s :( her "success rating" thing for Holler was more bearable lol at least there is support 

 

this sounds so unpleasant :( but the fans seem to love it so at least he won't feel bad

Actually the bashing thread and Twitter have been having a field day dragging him for this

[Secre]

It's only somewhat related to  technique but can any of you tell me what's a reasonable range, dynamic instructions, phrasing etc. for like your average pop soprano or tenor. I need it to write a vocal melody, but this specific assignment is about contemporary singers and idk if it's reasonable to expect a pop singer to be able to crescendo, sing through two octaves in one song etc.

[Secre]

That's all subjective really..and it just really depends on who you are writing for and what the intentions of the piece are. You would write a song differently for TaeYeon than you would SoHyang. I am sorry, but pop singers crescendo all the time..contemporary singing isn't dynamic-less. Many contemp. vocalist crescendo in their song. You can write a dynamically interesting piece in pop music, just think of the more skilled vocalist. They are all very musical with their singing with dynamics, phrasing, and range. Now, the two octave thing..depends on who you are writing for. Most songs span like an octave and a half, but 2 octaves isn't unreasonable. Like TaeYeon's U R is 2 octaves from E3-F5 and so is 'I" that's E3-E5. The range really depends on who the song is for and the style of the song.

IK what you mean but like a song that isn't vocally challenging but still requires some skill idk how hard it is to do all of these stuff that's why i'm asking.

[Secre]

Isn't vocally challenging but still requires skill? Think Rain by TaeYeon, Love and Affection by SeoHyun something that isn't overly difficult, but still requires you to sing. Also how you write great affects it's difficulty level, not the range it self. Because Gee and Can You Hear Me have the same range of A3-Eb5 y'see lol? What are you going for style wise? Like do you have any songs that you have in mind that I can sort of base things off?

Oh yeah I see what you're saying but i'm  not really writing in a style I have to write the melody along with a piano but the piano melody is already given. It's a voice leading/counterpoint exercise. The melody's the first 24 bars of All of Me.

[Secre]

what do you think of seola from wjsn as a vocalist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcn15Eq6DAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siT4FVAO5hs

she's the one with darker hair here

Take what I say with a grain of salt but I love WJSN if you haven't noticed lol so i'm pretty familiar with all of them vocally. From what I noticed she's that typical "girly" style of singing, weak support, nasal, airy, she actually lets way too much air pass, and doesn't connect her vocal chords much soft, and lacking projection. Like in the Say Something cover contrast her singing with Dawon she's singing with airiness for the dynamics of the song, but you can hear the support, and fullness in her voice. Idk the specifics like how high she can remain relaxed, where she can keep tone in her lower range but if she's unable to support then she's probably in that weak or weak to average range. But i've never asked about her before it's just what I noticed so I may be wrong

Edited February 28, 2017 by Secret

[Secre]

Pretty complete video of Yuju's showcased vocal range

 

 

What was that C#5 at 13:09 that had to be strained right

[Secre]

I think you guys should post this somewhere on the front page of your blog, as an answer to everytime someone starts talking about emotions and expressiveness and why technique doesn't matter 

 

"Technique is like the left hand of driving. Expressive singing is the right hand. You need both hands on the wheel to drive a successful musical performance. A healthy, reliable method of singing gives you the ability to be expressive in a free, unimpeded way, with a consistent, attractive tone quality through a large pitch and dynamic range."

 

"Unlike instrumentalists, singers must communicate not only through music, but additionally, through words. Singers are actors as well as musicians and must reveal the emotions behind the lyrics as well as the passion of the musical phrase. Good technical development is not an end unto itself. It is a means for empowering the singer to express those emotions freely and poignantly. I am interested in helping the student be empowered to reach their goals as singers and musicians."

- Kathryn Wright

Edited March 8, 2017 by Secret

[Secre]

 

Was the high note at 2:37 supported ?

 

 

AND ALSO

 

 

Does she have tongue tension ?

 

I feel like  she does

 

 

No that high note is not supported, and yes I hear tongue tension

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Weak vocalist vs weak vocalist, this is fun lol

 

Click here to view the Tweet

Edited March 19, 2017 by Secret