International Japanese music fandom is now controlled by 2 groups of fans

[DocumentaLy]

For the Open Post on Arama last week, I posted this discussion on visual kei that also talked about international Japanese music fandom in general: https://www.monochrome-heaven.com/topic/45796-google-trends-showing-the-decline-of-visual-kei/

 

 

Which led to an exchange with a reader:

 

 

Reader: As for the Jpop world - I feel like the overseas narrative is driven mostly by idol music and the popular crowd @ jpopsuki. There's a lot of stuff that gets lost in the cracks for us overseas fans, but that's kind of unavoidable I think.

 

Me: Who is the popular crowd at JPopSuki?

 

Reader: deadgrandma and the ppl that kind of congregate around him. I'm not trying to hate on them or anything btw. Nothing like that. I quite enjoy them. I just think that the international fanbase is largely driven by piracy, and they are some of the most outspoken and passionate pirates. The fact that they actually buy stuff is important because the music has to originate from somewhere (original rips/purchases), and when you buy stuff and share it, you're essentially fueling the international fanbase - keeping the flame lit so to speak. Add that along with a charismatic/infamous net personality, and people will pay attention - whether they like the music you're pushing or not. This combination of supply + influence allows one to contribute to (and manipulate to an extent) the overall narrative of the international fanbase I believe. This is one of the reasons that so many overseas fans might imagine Seiko Oomori to be the biggest thing in J-pop right now, when in Japan, there's a different story. It's always going to be a different story, though. That story just depends on who is supplying + who is the being the most vocal about said supply. This is my theory at least - just based on my observations of the past 13 or so years. I'm interested to know what you think about all of this, and the linked discussion above!

 

 

 

For those who don't know deadgrandma writes for Arama and posted this now infamous piece on ONE OK ROCK: http://aramajapan.com/news/music/one-ok-rock-does-not-rock/69631/

 

I think he has a unique perspective and is knowledgeable. I had been around him on JPS and Last.FM for a while, so I asked him to join Arama. So it is funny that there is a JPS influence on Arama.

 

 

But what are your thoughts on this? It reminds me of something I said a while ago about how the two most active groups of fans now internationally are idol fans and indie fans. But this is also a reflection of the last trend and the new trend in Japanese music.

[abra]

"How dare I use teenage girl as a criticism"

To be fair, I probably did go a little far, but I only meant this as a joke. It's no excuse really but look at my avatar. It's Seiko Oomori, the irony is too great here. She's definitely an artist that has a high teenage girl fanbase, to be fair I really don't care about this, just thought it was a lame smarmy thing to say, chanelling what a lot of rock fans in general act like.

 

 

speaking of the devil

[doki-doki]

There is definitely some truth in that statement, I think that because of the issue of Piracy and our sometimes limited Official (English Language) Resources for Japanese Music Releases, Updates and News, some International Fans have to get their Music from other Sources, whether that be Forums, News Sites, Blogs, Word of Mouth, Social Media, Fan Accounts, or Japanese Chart Websites (such as Oricon, Recochuku, iTunes JP etc) but the majority of us who can't speak fluent Japanese and aren't involved in the Native Fanbase aren't always getting a real, accurate image of what is the Mainstream, what's trending, what's declining and how an Artist is really portrayed and recognised to Native Audiences, and our expectations and assumptions are not always correct, and can be manipulated depending on where we are obtaining our information. 

[wiaraewiwiarae]

I have a feeling that there's also a group of the fandom are just more or less silent lurkers who aren't really influenced by anything but their own taste. Idk how big is that group and whether it controls anything though.

 

For example, I

- have a 6+ y.o. jpopsuki account

- have absolutely no knowledge about both deadgrandma and Seiko Oomori

- read Arama for news, not opinions

- also find one ok rock boring af xD

[blank_stare]

I have a feeling that there's also a group of the fandom are just more or less silent lurker who aren't really influenced by anything but their own taste. Idk how big is that group and whether it controls anything though.

 

For example, I

- have a 6+ y.o. jpopsuki account

- have absolutely no knowledge about both deadgrandma and Seiko Oomori

- read Arama for news, not opinions

- also find one o rock boring af xD

^ this minus the last bit. I like OOR.

[Azero]

Agree with that, the people who have the informations lead the way.

[starlightshimmers]

It's not that hard to know what's popular in Japan, you just check the Chaku Uta charts...

 

EDIT: A link for those who don't know.

 

Recochoku

https://recochoku.jp/ranking/uta/daily/

 

Mu-mo

http://sp-m.mu-mo.net/

 

Chaku-uta are songs downloaded on mobiles, and those are really good indicators of what's popular in Japan. That and the karaoke charts, the most popular songs sung in karaoke bars in Japan, I recall seeing one before but I forget where it was.

 

To the people still in-denial that Kana Nishino is the current J-pop Queen, just look at the Chaku-Uta charts, Kana Nishino is always on it since her debut. Her song Dear Bride from 4 months ago is still charting on Chaku Uta.

[DocumentaLy]

It's not that hard to know what's popular in Japan, you just check the Chaku Uta charts...

 

EDIT: A link for those who don't know.

 

Recochoku

https://recochoku.jp/ranking/uta/daily/

 

Mu-mo

http://sp-m.mu-mo.net/

 

Chaku-uta are songs downloaded on mobiles, and those are really good indicators of what's popular in Japan. That and the karaoke charts, the most popular songs sung in karaoke bars in Japan, I recall seeing one before but I forget where it was.

 

To the people still in-denial that Kana Nishino is the current J-pop Queen, just look at the Chaku-Uta charts, Kana Nishino is always on it since her debut. Her song Dear Bride from 4 months ago is still charting on Chaku Uta.

 

Ringtones have been irrelevant for years. Look at the digital singles charts on Recochoku and iTunes instead.

 

And the karaoke charts are often full of old songs.

[IceHism]

Why did you get so many downvotes for this though.

if by pop you mean popular music then it's probably right.

 

There's also a lot of people driven by vocaloids, utaites and doujin music as well.  You won't really see them listen to a lot of mainstream pop music though.

[Rohan Kishibe]

 

There's also a lot of people driven by vocaloids, utaites and doujin music as well. You won't really see them listen to a lot of mainstream pop music though.

Yup I have friends who are into this type of music and when I show them jindie or popular non idol songs they don't seem to care that much.

[MightyLongFall]

But what are your thoughts on this? It reminds me of something I said a while ago about how the two most active groups of fans now internationally are idol fans and indie fans.

you aware that when you said INTERNATIONAL fans, it means the fans OUTSIDE JAPAN/ASIA, don't you? Then how about these kind of fans?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah they are nothing compared to the very active and massive j-indie INTERNATIONAL fans. it's like j-indie acts can easily sold out those venues and draw much more crowds given the size of the j-indie INTERNATIONAL fanbase here

[MightyLongFall]

I have a feeling that there's also a group of the fandom are just more or less silent lurkers who aren't really influenced by anything but their own taste. Idk how big is that group and whether it controls anything though.

 

For example, I

- have a 6+ y.o. jpopsuki account

- have absolutely no knowledge about both deadgrandma and Seiko Oomori

- read Arama for news, not opinions

- also find one ok rock boring af xD

I don't even know what jpopsuki is. Well, i agree with you. see my post above. IMO J-music fans today are just mainstream people, i.e mainstream rock fans, not dedicated to japan like weaboo, so they don't hangout in japanese forums like the old fans used to

[DocumentaLy]

Why did you get so many downvotes for this though.

if by pop you mean popular music then it's probably right.

 

There's also a lot of people driven by vocaloids, utaites and doujin music as well.  You won't really see them listen to a lot of mainstream pop music though.

 

 

Yup I have friends who are into this type of music and when I show them jindie or popular non idol songs they don't seem to care that much.

 

They seem to be off in their own otaku world though, separate from the places that deal with Japanese music.

 

 

you aware that when you said INTERNATIONAL fans, it means the fans OUTSIDE JAPAN/ASIA, don't you? Then how about these kind of fans?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah they are nothing compared to the very active and massive j-indie INTERNATIONAL fans. it's like j-indie acts can easily sold out those venues and draw much more crowds given the size of the j-indie INTERNATIONAL fanbase here

 

 

I don't even know what jpopsuki is. Well, i agree with you. see my post above. IMO J-music fans today are just mainstream people, i.e mainstream rock fans, not dedicated to japan like weaboo, so they don't hangout in japanese forums like the old fans used to

 

Just because you like a Japanese band, it doesn't mean you like Japanese music. You just happen to like a band that is Japanese.

[IceHism]

They seem to be off in their own otaku world though, separate from the places that deal with Japanese music.

 

 

 

What does this even mean????  If you're talking about "indie"(as in the sound kind of indie) music and pop music, then yea, these categories(doujin, utaite, vocaloid) are mostly separate and barely have any overlap with the above two except for the utaites that actually get signed to major record labels like Claris, Wagakki band, Hanatan, Reol, Garnidelia, etc or unless an Utaite decides to cover some popular song.

 

I'm getting mixed signals here.  Your title says "International Japanese music fandom" which basically includes all niche genres but what you want to discuss is "Mainstream int. jpop(as in popular music) fans."  As for pop fans, I'd be surprised if 99% of int. fans could even have a better and more nuanced opinion than yours when it comes to topics like this.

[DocumentaLy]

What does this even mean????  If you're talking about "indie"(as in the sound kind of indie) music and pop music, then yea, these categories(doujin, utaite, vocaloid) are mostly separate and barely have any overlap with the above two except for the utaites that actually get signed to major record labels like Claris, Wagakki band, Hanatan, Reol, Garnidelia, etc or unless an Utaite decides to cover some popular song.

 

I'm getting mixed signals here.  Your title says "International Japanese music fandom" which basically includes all niche genres but what you want to discuss is "Mainstream int. jpop(as in popular music) fans."  As for pop fans, I'd be surprised if 99% of int. fans could even have a better and more nuanced opinion than yours when it comes to topics like this.

 

What I meant is that people who listen to doujins, utaites, and vocaloids tend to stick more to the the otaku community, as in anime, manga, video games, and such, than the Japanese music community. They're not really a part of it.

[IceHism]

What I meant is that people who listen to doujins, utaites, and vocaloids tend to stick more to the the otaku community, as in anime, manga, video games, and such, than the Japanese music community. They're not really a part of it.

 

But Japanese music community is literally a superset of every other community that listens to Japanese music.  That's like saying since idol fans don't interact too much with non-idol acts and mostly stick to wota communities, it means they aren't really a part of the Japanese music community.  Perhaps you could clarify what a Japanese music community even is at this point?

[Coffee Biscuit]

Just because you like a Japanese band, it doesn't mean you like Japanese music. You just happen to like a band that is Japanese.

 

So liking a Japanese band =/= liking Japanese music?

 

On one hand, I know where you're coming from, I checked out Crossfaith because of this thread and needless to say, I don't find the band being all too "Japanese" outside of it's members from the 5 MV's I manage to watch.

 

On another, I don't see the point of drawing a line of us and them.

 

 

On a side note

 

 

How about Idol music? Vocaloid music such as "Senbon Zakura"? Indies that got famous by Niconico douga? Can fans who solely love advertisement single such as "Perfect Human" and "Umi no Koe" be considered Japanese music fan? BABYMETAL? How about those that only love the music in Japanese drama such as "Planetarium" in Hana Yori Dango?

 

If those fandom don't interact with others, they too are not Japanese music fan?

 

So this guys an Idol fan

That guy's a Vocaloid fan

He is a net indie fan

That guy is all about Japanese game music.

That person is a advertisement music maniac,

That's just a Kawaii-Metal fan.

That's a drama-pop fan

 

So, none of them are "Japanese" music fan?

 

Basically... Wtf man? Might as well help them expand their horizon than shoving "you're not jpop fan because X" into them.

 

I probably would not ever pick up Jpop again if it weren't for accidentally running into AKB48 several years ago, and continue to miss out on... I don't know, all of the above I just freaking mentioned.

 

Except for Hana yori Dango, I haven't, and have no plan to watch that crap, Otsuka Ai is nice though. Planetarium is pretty nice.

[Freakonomics]

There's definitely a dichotomy of what the international fans perceive as popular compared what the Japanese like. I agree with that the acts that actually try to branch out to the international community through making PVs available via youtube and an active social media presence tend to have more fanfare amongst international fans which is why acts like Suiyoubi no Campanella is popular even if their domestic sales don't necessarily reflect that.

 

The ones that don't try, don't because they know their music won't appeal to the international market (e.g. enka) or that they already have a large domestic presence that there's no need for it (see JE groups).

[DocumentaLy]

But Japanese music community is literally a superset of every other community that listens to Japanese music.  That's like saying since idol fans don't interact too much with non-idol acts and mostly stick to wota communities, it means they aren't really a part of the Japanese music community.  Perhaps you could clarify what a Japanese music community even is at this point?

 

Let's put it like this: When you watch a show like Music Station, how often is an act like that on? And when they are on, isn't a point made about the type of act they are?

 

I go on several sites discussing Japanese music and I see idol fans all the time. I don't see doujin / utaite / vocaloid fans though. They're mostly in otaku spaces.

[DocumentaLy]

So liking a Japanese band =/= liking Japanese music?

 

On one hand, I know where you're coming from, I checked out Crossfaith because of this thread and needless to say, I don't find the band being all too "Japanese" outside of it's members from the 5 MV's I manage to watch.

 

On another, I don't see the point of drawing a line of us and them.

 

 

On a side note

 

 

How about Idol music? Vocaloid music such as "Senbon Zakura"? Indies that got famous by Niconico douga? Can the advertisement single such as "Perfect Human" and "Umi no Koe" be considered Japanese music? BABYMETAL?

 

They're not part of the community. They are welcome, but to include them is pointless. It's like saying someone who liked "Gangnam Style" is automatically a KPop fan, even if they don't listen to anything else Korean.

 

Idol music is included. Vocaloids, no. Niconico acts, possibly. CM songs, definitely. BABYMETAL, yes.

[DocumentaLy]

There's definitely a dichotomy of what the international fans perceive as popular compared what the Japanese like. I agree with that the acts that actually try to branch out to the international community through making PVs available via youtube and an active social media presence tend to have more fanfare amongst international fans which is why acts like Suiyoubi no Campanella is popular even if their domestic sales don't necessarily reflect that.

 

The ones that don't try, don't because they know their music won't appeal to the international market (e.g. enka) or that they already have a large domestic presence that there's no need for it (see JE groups).

 

I honestly have to give credit for getting Suiyoubi no Campanella going internationally to one person: Shinra-Electric at JPS. In 2014, he bought all their stuff up to "Amin Tofu" and posted it. They had some videos out, but nobody had leaked their releases. I listened to it all in one sitting and then did my Arama piece. And then other people started posting about them in English. Then came the CM deals, Music Station, SXSW, the major label deal, and so on. Suiyoubi no Campanella is a buzz act more than anything else. 

[Obelisk]

So liking a Japanese band =/= liking Japanese music?

 

On one hand, I know where you're coming from, I checked out Crossfaith because of this thread and needless to say, I don't find the band being all too "Japanese" outside of it's members from the 5 MV's I manage to watch.

 

On another, I don't see the point of drawing a line of us and them.

 

 

On a side note

 

 

How about Idol music? Vocaloid music such as "Senbon Zakura"? Indies that got famous by Niconico douga? Can fans who solely love advertisement single such as "Perfect Human" and "Umi no Koe" be considered Japanese music fan? BABYMETAL? How about those that only love the music in Japanese drama such as "Planetarium" in Hana Yori Dango?

 

If those fandom don't interact with others, they too are not Japanese music fan?

 

So this guys an Idol fan

That guy's a Vocaloid fan

He is a net indie fan

That guy is all about Japanese game music.

That person is a advertisement music maniac,

That's just a Kawaii-Metal fan.

That's a drama-pop fan

 

So, none of them are "Japanese" music fan?

 

Basically... Wtf man? Might as well help them expand their horizon than shoving "you're not jpop fan because X" into them.

 

I probably would not ever pick up Jpop again if it weren't for accidentally running into AKB48 several years ago, and continue to miss out on... I don't know, all of the above I just freaking mentioned.

 

Except for Hana yori Dango, I haven't, and have no plan to watch that crap, Otsuka Ai is nice though. Planetarium is pretty nice.

You Just perfectly explained, why there's no proper fandom.

 

They're not part of the community. They are welcome, but to include them is pointless. It's like saying someone who liked "Gangnam Style" is automatically a KPop fan, even if they don't listen to anything else Korean.

 

Idol music is included. Vocaloids, no. Niconico acts, possibly. CM songs, definitely. BABYMETAL, yes.

Is there a community? Even this forum isn't representative.

[DocumentaLy]

You Just perfectly explained, why there's no proper fandom.

 

Is there a community? Even this forum isn't representative.

 

When did I mention this forum?

[Obelisk]

When did I mention this forum?

I never really seen a proper community for jpop.

[IceHism]

Let's put it like this: When you watch a show like Music Station, how often is an act like that on? And when they are on, isn't a point made about the type of act they are?

 

I go on several sites discussing Japanese music and I see idol fans all the time. I don't see doujin / utaite / vocaloid fans though. They're mostly in otaku spaces.

 

So your criteria is that they had to appear in a music show before like this vocaloid song sung by an utaite?

https://vimeo.com/148211562   

 

But anyways, if you get to dictate what a Japanese music community is and that it is what you see, then I guess you're right!