International JPop fandom today ~Death of female soloists killed off the old fans / Did the idol fans replace these losses?~

[DocumentaLy]

This is a topic that has been swirling in my head for like the past month or so. I think it could do with with the whole end of 2013 thing and people reflecting, year end shows / lists, and whatnot. If it sounds like I'm just some crazy person rambling, it's fine because I feel the same way writing this. I pretty much want the whole Japanese side's input on this.

 

Actually, this idea started a few months ago when I went to my old forum's now dead Asian section and saw a thread called "Is JPop dead?" Pretty much the thread talked about how JPop is dead now because of the fact that no new female soloists have emerged in the vein of Ayu, Hikki, Kuu, and the like. At our peak, which was sometime last decade, we had about 100 members or so in the Asian section. I remember some random people here had actually visited our forum for news. It, like a lot of JPop forums, have died off. Is this mostly due to the change in the scene? In the case of my old forum, I would say yes. 

 

I replied that it's not dead but if you are centered around female soloists, then this isn't the scene for you anymore really. Groups are the main focus now. And there is always the less mainstream acts you can get into, which is more or less what I've done and have been during the whole time I've been listening to Japanese music pretty much.

 

Continuing with this JPop is dead / JPop sucks now thing, everytime I see someone, Japanese or not, say these things, it's closely followed by something like "Utada needs to come back" and/or "Ayu has lost the plot." Thinking back to when international JPop fandom was at its peak, these were the 2 main acts. These were the acts that introduced a lot of people to the scene and got them interested and wanting to explore more. People found similar acts and their roster of Japanese acts they listened to grew.

 

Looking back on those threads Mandi made about music from last decade, you can see why these people would be interested in the scene at that time. Around 2009 / 2010, that scene unraveled and with it so did the international JPop fandom. And looking at the numbers, so did the Japanese industry itself. 

 

When I streamed the year end shows, all I would see in the chat is "I'm only here for Ayu", "When is Ayu coming on?", "These boy groups / girl groups suck. Who are they?" and "OMG, JPop is so bad now." It also became clear to me that a lot of people who were saying these things, hadn't bothered with the scene in a while and only came out because of Ayu. It reminded me of Utada stans popping up around the time of Sakura Nagashi and her mother's death.

 

I feel like the international fandom died in stages. I don't think YouTube or copyright or whatever was that big of a deal for people in the scene. We always had to search for things. Here are the stages it died in:

 

1. Utada's hiatus

2. Ayu's dramatic decline these past few years

 

And I feel as if there is going to be another decline if Koda Kumi's new album really ends with a hiatus.

 

Did the female soloist boom of the last decade raise expectations too much?

 

But then on the flip side, the people who like the scene now, the big boy and girl groups, have they replaced this old fandom of previous years? Is their number the same amount as the Ayu, Hikki, and whatnot stans that were running around a decade ago? Does anyone know? And another question, this one is for the idol stans, what were y'all listening to a decade ago? Idols weren't really a thing back then. Did you guys adapt from the old fandom that I spoke of or are y'all new in general?

 

Ohh Lord, I can't believe I wrote all of this...

[Ruby Faith]

I only listen to old releases now.

 

 

I don't even catch up with the new trends since:

 

1/ Most of them are kawaii groups, I don't dig the concept

 

2/ Ayumi, my favorite J-pop singer stopped releasing music that fits my taste.

 

 

So, i'm still Jaming to Evolution and My Name's Women

[kimchi]

I mainly listen to older releases, the only artist with newer releases I have been majorly following are rock/inde groups tbh.

[Shino]

utada killed off her fanbase herself.....the idols did nothing.....and idk if her hiatus was really needed tbh

 

and its 2014......I dont think we will being seeing her until fucking KH3.....if she and Square Enix come to an agreement 

 

its a shame since she is the one that got me into Asian music in first place 

[sofi]

I still listen to Hikki and old japanese music nowadays, i basically like no one from the mainstream now, but I can still find acts i like in the indie/underground scene.

 

I don't feel this "decline" as much as others Jpop fans (because when i discovered japanese music like 6/7 years ago, i was mostly part of the anime fandom), so i can't really express my opinion on the causes, but it's still sad.

I looked at the Kohaku setlist and i was like meh .__. i literally like 2/3 acts out of hundreds.

[sergel]

To a point maybe. I got in by Utada and found lots of others that way.

I'm still into the R&B scene, but some of those singer vanish for long periods of time, partly due to sales it seems.

 

There are some singers I still like, but not really on the level Hikki or Utada.

I don't think it's so much a group thing, just that a lot of groups release okay music or seem to play it too safe or vanilla. Something about Utada, Ayu, Koda Kumi, and Namie is that they change up their music and performance a lot, like it's not just all one style. Look at Kumi, she has ballads, rock, hip hop, bubble-gum pop, and synth pop songs. 

 

I guess I'm not that into the music of most J-idols. Even ones I like like Kat-tun seem to have not released anything in forever. 

I suppose it is also frustrating the see music we do like not doing well. You try not to focus on it and support best you can, but sometimes that's not enough, like with Bright. Some of it seems to be Japan's tastes. They love their ballads and their favorite acts.

 

On that note, I need some legendary songs ago like Taboo or M. I still listen to them (listening to Taboo right now actually).

[evil4life]

the music industry as a whole has also changed since Ayu, Namie, and Utada's debut since unlike them who could sell well over 400k with 1 single nowadays the only your going to get those kind of sales is by including gimmicks in your releases.

 

overall i think its very hard to anyone to become the new queen of Jpop since people have too much high expectations as it is. 

 

i don't think Jpop as a whole has died, i just think the whole mainstream scene of rock bands, soloists, etc has been taken over completely by idol groups and everyone else has been pushed into obscurity. 

[DocumentaLy]

I mainly listen to older releases, the only artist with newer releases I have been majorly following are rock/inde groups tbh.

 

Me too pretty much. That and what remains of the urban scene.

 

utada killed off her fanbase herself.....the idols did nothing.....and idk if her hiatus was really needed tbh

 

and its 2014......I dont think we will being seeing her until fucking KH3.....if she and Square Enix come to an agreement 

 

its a shame since she is the one that got me into Asian music in first place 

 

I didn't say the idols did anything. Yes, Utada did kill off her fanbase, and with it, a lot of people who were interested in Japanese music.

[DocumentaLy]

To a point maybe. I got in by Utada and found lots of others that way.

I'm still into the R&B scene, but some of those singer vanish for long periods of time, partly due to sales it seems.

 

There are some singers I still like, but not really on the level Hikki or Utada.

I don't think it's so much a group thing, just that a lot of groups release okay music or seem to play it too safe or vanilla. 

 

I guess I'm not that into the music of most J-idols. Even ones I like like Kat-tun seem to have not released anything in forever. 

I suppose it is also frustrating the see music we do like not doing well. You try not to focus on it and support best you can, but sometimes that's not enough, like with Bright. 

 

On that note, I need some legendary songs ago like Taboo or M. I still listen to them (listening to Taboo right now actually).

 

I'm still over DOUBLE not doing anything for her 15th anniversary. I wouldn't be surprised if she was done in general.

 

the music industry as a whole has also changed since Ayu, Namie, and Utada's debut since unlike them who could sell well over 400k with 1 single nowadays the only your going to get those kind of sales is by including gimmicks in your releases.

 

overall i think its very hard to anyone to become the new queen of Jpop since people have too much high expectations as it is. 

 

i don't think Jpop as a whole has died, i just think the whole mainstream scene of rock bands, soloists, etc has been taken over completely by idol groups and everyone else has been pushed into obscurity. 

 

You know, the same issue is in the West. Like who really is going to replace Madonna and Mariah and Whitney and the like. Like people come up but there is always that comparison and they just fall short.

[Edna Mode]

Majority of the people that listened to J-pop 10 or so years ago, started listening to Jpop due to songs being a tie-in in some anime or JRPG video game, Anime imo isn't as nearly as popular as it was back in the day, the same goes for JRPGS, the quality in the plot and storyline declined and American gaming companies stepped up and brought their A-game with Xbox and PS2/3. I think that also plays a role in the decline of Jpop. 

 

+ people grow up, change, forget etc. Jpop international fandom has always been a niche which is why it feels like it's on a decline because I think a huge majority of the fans practically stopped at the same time (2008/09). The fans that pop up every once in a while I feel like, simply do so because of nostalgia, which is similar to how people in japan are towards music.

 

I think the new era of Jpop fans are pretty much Johnnies fans (which never really went away) 48 fans, EXILE TRIBE and co. fans 

[SLEEP TALK]

Luckily Queen Amuro is still going strong for the other girls.

[sergel]

Out of the three music industries I follow (Western market, Japan, and Korea), I think all 3 are in need of someone to really just come up with a big song. I look at the charts, and think some of the top ones are not as good as ones in the past. And i can hardly even attribute it to nostalgia since I heard some of those songs in the past recently (didn't listen to M till like 2010 or 2011). 

 

I wonder if sales has something to do with it. The music industry around the world has a harder time than it did say a decade ago. Thus, something I noticed in all 3 markets is that a lot of singer might play it safe or follow-the-leader in order to achieve some moderate success rather than risk a lot and possibly lose a lot. I don't see too many people that daring, maybe Kyary, but then she has the issue of seeming like a one-trick pony. In a way Perfume is like that too. 

[DocumentaLy]

Out of the three music industries I follow (Western market, Japan, and Korea), I think all 3 are in need of someone to really just come up with a big song. I look at the charts, and think some of the top ones are not as good as ones in the past. And i can hardly even attribute it to nostalgia since I heard some of those songs in the past recently (didn't listen to M till like 2010 or 2011). 

 

I wonder if sales has something to do with it. The music industry around the world has a harder time than it did say a decade ago. Thus, something I noticed in all 3 markets is that a lot of singer might play it safe or follow-the-leader in order to achieve some moderate success rather than risk a lot and possibly lose a lot. I don't see too many people that daring, maybe Kyary, but then she has the issue of seeming like a one-trick pony. In a way Perfume is like that too. 

 

What would Kyary and Perfume be without Nakata?

[sergel]

What would Kyary and Perfume be without Nakata?

...shoot me but I just realized that he produces for both of them.

 

But it does make me think...Perfume, Kyary, and Kana, all have a distinct style and make some nice songs here and there...but rarely every go outside that range, at least for their singles. Like when has Perfume released a ballad or Kana a rock song as a single?

[Ryusenkai]

In my case, this was never really a bit deal for me, since I'm probably one of the few who got into J-music back then but had pretty much nothing to do with the female solo scene that existed at the time.  I started with anison and game music, which when I was much younger, was what I really liked because it was so upbeat and different from what I was used to hearing from the US.  Eventually, I started to look up full versions to the songs and became aware that the Japanese music industry was actually a thing.  From there, went through a brief Visual Kei phase for a few months (probably around the time I had my brief K-pop phase as well).  After that, I got back into one of the bands I'd heard towards the beginning of my interest in J-music (Bump of Chicken) and from there, found my way into the scene that I like most today (pop-rock/rock).  Over the past couple years in particular, I've started to open up more and take things like electronic rock and indie rock into greater consideration and realized that I actually like some aspects of them a fair bit.  However, I've always tended to like male vocalists somewhat more than female vocalists, so I guess I've just never really noticed the kind of attachment that you're trying to describe.  

 

To me, it's more about the music than the hype, and it has been for a long time.  Might be in the minority on that one, but *shrugs* what is, is.

[DocumentaLy]

 

Majority of the people that listened to J-pop 10 or so years ago, started listening to Jpop due to songs being a tie in some anime or JRPG video game, Anime imo isn't as nearly as popular as it was back in the day, the same goes for JRPGS, the quality in the plot and storyline declined and American gaming companies stepped brought their A-game with Xbox and PS2/3. I think that also plays a role in the decline of Jpop.

 

+ people grow up, change, forget etc. Jpop international fandom has always been a niche which is why it feels like it's on a decline because I think a huge majority of the fans practically stopped at the same time (2008/09). The fans that pop up every once in a while I feel like, simply do so because of nostalgia, which is similar to how people in japan are towards music.

 

I think the new era of Jpop fans are pretty much Johnnies fans (which never really went away) 48 fans, EXILE TRIBE and co. fans

 

Yes, it does seem like the fandom died at the end of last decade.

 

I was never into anime of video games; I was purely here for the music.

 

And yes, it seems as if Japanese people don't really care about current music nowadays.

 

 

...shoot me but I just realized that he produces for both of them.

 

But it does make me think...Perfume, Kyary, and Kana, all have a distinct style and make some nice songs here and there...but rarely every go outside that range, at least for their singles. Like when has Perfume released a ballad or Kana a rock song as a single?

 

Umm, I'm thinking and the closest I can think of is:

 

 

 

 

 

I know it's not it exactly, but this is the best I could come up with.

[Property of Goddess Irene]

It has to do with growing up and people changing their tastes, then a new generation filling the gaps but in a different manner from before.

 

From the international fanbase perspective, it has to do with the rising fad of Japanese products from the late 90s. Namely Pokemon, Final Fantasy VII, and different types of anime. Most people who got into that were pre-teens at that time, and some moved into other facets of Japanese media like jpop. By 2007, however, many of them were entering or graduating college. The harshness of the real world hits them hard and keeping up with jpop is probably the last thing they have on their mind. Even the younger ones probably tried to move away from it due to the rise of social media and not wanting to appear "uncool" to their peers for liking otaku stuff.

 

Meanwhile in Japan, the people who grew up feeling hopeful or thinking they will be different from their parents ended up realizing that their dreams wont come true and that they are just like their parents. Artists like Ayu who represented that "new wave" remained the same but the fans matured and grew older. Remaining fans of those artists gave them a feeling of futility, so they moved on into other music that suits their new tastes.

[Lissandra]

Don't know if I'm on the exact wavelength in terms of how I got into Japanese music, for me it was simply growing up in Japan as a Navy brat. I've always liked most of what I've heard, from rock to pop to R&B... the rap still hasn't grown on me, plus what tends to be popular is always a barely there sappy love ballad. I agree that there are no attention-grabbing acts recently and what seems to be popular is overwhelmingly fandom-based, and in some cases, these fandoms are so complex that even if I was interested in the music, I'd be more than a bit confused with everything going on. Of course, the music is not the #1 reason for these groups' existence, but rather making money. Which of course, is rather important, but I at least like to hone in to some kind of artistry involved.

 

As for the other acts that are popular, none really attract my interest. I don't think we can blame the idol phenomena entirely on this, except perhaps music executives don't want to take many chances these days. I haven't been really been paying attention to make a good argument there. Golden Bomber seems more like a parody to me than anything else, and as for Nakata's acts - well, I feel that saying this may be controversial, but I don't find it to be personal whatsoever. It's hard for me to make a connection to the artists. While I may feel Nakata's passion as a producer, I'm forever reminded that there's a puppet master behind these girls and in this regard they're somewhat replaceable. And he's not really a 90's TK in terms of hit-making ability. 

 

To answer your question - I'd actually say no. I think this is a low-point in terms of Jpop, and what is currently popular now in that realm doesn't appeal to international fans, and in some cases, highlight the parts of Japanese culture that make people uncomfortable from the get-go.

[Edna Mode]

I honestly thought, for a brief moment that with time Kana Nishino, Kato Miliyah, and ayaka would reign high, and be the new generation of female soloist replacing the past ones, but japan didn't feel the same way I guess. Doesn't really bother anymore tho, I'm over it.

[alterna]

I guess there's just something more appealing about groups now?? 

 

i thought it may have to do with the fact ayu, kuu and namie barely appear on tv now so i guess people dont care about them much unless their actual fans of them idk music industry now in general not even just japan isn't so great anymore 

[sergel]

Umm, I'm thinking and the closest I can think of is:

 

 

I know it's not it exactly, but this is the best I could come up with.

See how hard it was for you to come up with examples? 

That perfume song is kind of nice though.

 

 

 

Meanwhile in Japan, the people who grew up feeling hopeful or thinking they will be different from their parents ended up realizing that their dreams wont come true and that they are just like their parents. Artists like Ayu who represented that "new wave" remained the same but the fans matured and grew older. Remaining fans of those artists gave them a feeling of futility, so they moved on into other music that suits their new tastes.

I agree on your first points that I delete, but a bit confused what you're trying to say with this. Like, are you saying those artists gave their fans a sense of hope or something along those lines, but then the harshness of reality set in for them?

[DocumentaLy]

Don't know if I'm on the exact wavelength in terms of how I got into Japanese music, for me it was simply growing up in Japan as a Navy brat. I've always liked most of what I've heard, from rock to pop to R&B... the rap still hasn't grown on me, plus what tends to be popular is always a barely there sappy love ballad. I agree that there are no attention-grabbing acts recently and what seems to be popular is overwhelmingly fandom-based, and in some cases, these fandoms are so complex that even if I was interested in the music, I'd be more than a bit confused with everything going on. Of course, the music is not the #1 reason for these groups' existence, but rather making money. Which of course, is rather important, but I at least like to hone in to some kind of artistry involved.

 

As for the other acts that are popular, none really attract my interest. I don't think we can blame the idol phenomena entirely on this, except perhaps music executives don't want to take many chances these days. I haven't been really been paying attention to make a good argument there. Golden Bomber seems more like a parody to me than anything else, and as for Nakata's acts - well, I feel that saying this may be controversial, but I don't find it to be personal whatsoever. It's hard for me to make a connection to the artists. While I may feel Nakata's passion as a producer, I'm forever reminded that there's a puppet master behind these girls and in this regard they're somewhat replaceable. And he's not really a 90's TK in terms of hit-making ability. 

 

To answer your question - I'd actually say no. I think this is a low-point in terms of Jpop, and what is currently popular now in that realm doesn't appeal to international fans, and in some cases, highlight the parts of Japanese culture that make people uncomfortable from the get-go.

 

It's interesting that you should compare Nakata to TK. I heard this thought when Perfume's new album came out and I didn't really get it. I can see the similarity but it's not at the same level. TK was a monster hit-wise. Nakata is not at the same level. I guess MEG would be his hitomi as in the act they produced that actually wrote their own songs and who had a say.

 

Golden Bomber is a parody. A visual kei air band...

 

I feel as if Japanese music was pushing forward and then towards the the end of last decade, they decided to pull back into some nostalgia trap. There are acts that are still pushing forward but they don't get the attention that they should. That's why I find Sakanaction coming to the mainstream in recent years interesting. They are pushing foward and are actually getting attention for it. 

[DocumentaLy]

It has to do with growing up and people changing their tastes, then a new generation filling the gaps but in a different manner from before.

 

From the international fanbase perspective, it has to do with the rising fad of Japanese products from the late 90s. Namely Pokemon, Final Fantasy VII, and different types of anime. Most people who got into that were pre-teens at that time, and some moved into other facets of Japanese media like jpop. By 2007, however, many of them were entering or graduating college. The harshness of the real world hits them hard and keeping up with jpop is probably the last thing they have on their mind. Even the younger ones probably tried to move away from it due to the rise of social media and not wanting to appear "uncool" to their peers for liking otaku stuff.

 

Meanwhile in Japan, the people who grew up feeling hopeful or thinking they will be different from their parents ended up realizing that their dreams wont come true and that they are just like their parents. Artists like Ayu who represented that "new wave" remained the same but the fans matured and grew older. Remaining fans of those artists gave them a feeling of futility, so they moved on into other music that suits their new tastes.

 

I can see your points.

[Property of Goddess Irene]

See how hard it was for you to come up with examples? 

That perfume song is kind of nice though.

 

 

I agree on your first points that I delete, but a bit confused what you're trying to say with this. Like, are you saying those artists gave their fans a sense of hope or something along those lines, but then the harshness of reality set in for them?

 

That's pretty much it. Their songs spoke to the inner feelings and struggles of Japan's "lost generation". That era's j-artists gained many fans because they were their voice. However, while the artists continue to remain rich celebrities the regular person continued to struggle. There was no light at the end of the tunnel for them. So having a "voice" was pointless when their situation remained the same.

[sergel]

That's pretty much it. Their songs spoke to the inner feelings and struggles of Japan's "lost generation". That era's j-artists gained many fans because they were their voice. However, while the artists continue to remain rich celebrities the regular person continued to struggle. There was no light at the end of the tunnel for them. So having a "voice" was pointless when their situation remained the same.

Ahh that makes more sense. At first I thought you were just saying that they didn't have any sad songs people could relate to.

 

In a way though, people still cling to songs like that. Hopeful, embody their struggles, ones that they can relate to. But i think with those previous artists, some of their music was really tailored to the "lost generation" like you said, whose lives didn't suddenly become great as adults.