A conversation about English in JPop and KPop

[DocumentaLy]

I was lurking, when I found an interesting conversation:

 

Y: I might get heat for this, but I am going to say it anyways...

I think the popularity of K-pop in the last few years, has really changed our expectations on what we expect from Asian artists these days. I am not trying to compare J-pop to K-pop, as I've always had a preference for J-pop and Kumi will always be my queen. HOWEVER, I cannot deny that K-pop has spoiled me in 1 aspect, and that is with their English pronunciation. Years ago, I was totally cool with Kumi's Engrish, whereas these days, I cringe so hard at songs like "Hotel", to the point where I can't even enjoy it. Kumi's English is so inconsistent, and the majority of the time it sounds like she isn't even trying to pronounce her words properly. There are a few exceptions like "IS THIS TRAP?", where I can actually understand the majority of what she's saying, and it makes listening to the song so much better.

 

I know she isn't a native English speaker and we need to cut her and other J-Pop artists some slack. But it's to the point sometimes, where she may as well be singing some made up gibberish, because it's that bad. And the reason this annoys me is because I KNOW she can do better. When she actually needs to focus on how to pronounce her English, like she did in "Real Emotion" and "That Ain't Cool", she is understandable. You can hear her accent still, but that's OK, because I can at least understand her. And that alone makes the song infinitely more enjoyable. 

 

Lastly, I want to say that this isn't about wanting to hear English music. I love when Kumi sings Japanese, and even though I can't understand what she's singing, I know that it's at least coherent for those who understand Japanese. My issue is not wanting to hear someone singing incoherent English.

 

 

P: As you already know, Japanese people use katakana to write english words and to adapt them to their syllabic language. They speak their own English. Yeah it's funny but it is what it is.I don't really care, I know her Engrish might put off people who are not into jpop but I don't even think a good English will attract more western fans so just have fun with her silly Engrish.

 

I don't want to talk about JPOP, I am not an expert, I enjoy some of it but I don't think I will ever grow to respect and understand that world so better close the discussion here or we'll be going off topic.

 

Anyway, I can't seriously wait to see Kumi live this year, I hope I won't be disappointed with bad setlists, bad lyrics, stage, dancing...I have high expectations but I am also aware it's going to be a long and tiring tour so maybe it won't pack a huge and over the top production...but Bon Voyage tour is my all time favourite so I am really thrilled to see the upcoming shows (Osaka May 13th-14th, Wakayama May 21st, Shiga May 22nd).

 

 

Z: accents are technically speech impediments. you can't fault people for that.  you say that you're not trying to compare kpop with jpop but it seems to me that you are actually doing this.  have you ever listened to Ayu's Real Me? that was way back when and also while/towards the end of ayu's prime, before the big international kpop explosion.   "Engrish" has always been around. and this is just one example of many. the jpop duo Simmons (シモンズ) in the 60s/70s had engrish. Mariya Takeuchi (竹内ã¾ã‚Šã‚„) 70s, 80s.  Hell, especially Akina Nakamori. these were all very popular artists. i think your kpop argument is flawed because of this.  completely assuming that you don't understand every little word in japanese music, which you so love as I do, don't you (we) listen to the music for more than just the language they are singing?  my point is - what does it matter? she's the artist. i think she's going to enunciate her singing however she wants, whether she is incorrect or not.  since your "issue is not wanting to hear someone singing incoherent english." then you have just ruled out all of jpop (generally speaking).  Namie is apparently good with the english language but i can't understand a large portion of the stuff on her genic album. which brings up another point that some people can understand the way people pronounce words over other people. maybe your tolerance specifically is particularly low. Pillis also made an excellent point about the way the Japanese language is translated to *their version* of our written language, which you are fatuously disregarding.  And as for Kumi Koda specifically, even her Japanese sounds kinda wonky when she's singing. Pop Diva is a good example.  Adding to a previous point, whether it's english or not, maybe that's just how she wants to sound. If you feel that I am not understanding you, please help me to understand. What I do understand, is that you dislike the use of English in J-Pop songs because they aren't pronouncing the words correctly (Kumi specifically). I don't think there's a problem with that.  I just feel compelled to contribute to your conversation. and if I could offer some advice, i would say get used to the engrish. it has always been around and it will always be around.

 

 

E: ^ THIS. All of this.

 

English has always been a shtick of JPop and it want go away. Considering the demographic JPop artists just don't need to improve on their pronunciation. I had my share of issues with overusing English as in with Namie's 2 latest albums (she sounded forced to me in some songs, although she keeps English lyrics for the sake of the flow), but I've come to accept them. In the end the music itself is what matters to me most and in what language and accent the song is sung is only secondary to me. Although I do understand that people listen to music differently and some might find their language butchered unacceptable.

 

 

L: 2016 and english in jpop is still an issue? lol

 

Like stated before me, the japanese have their own way of using and incorporating english into their culture and language. That's why sometimes we see grotesque grammar errors or random words which make no sense in a sentence. But actually, I find it really cool. Their music, even though we love it, is not specifically targeted to us. It would be a whole other deal if Namie or Kumi tried to release music in the west. 

 

Just look at BoA. She had english classes and what not. She still had an accent (which is natural) but she was perfectly understandable (to me at least)

 

 

Y: Ok, the first thing i'd like to get out of the way is the accent issue. I clearly stated in my original post that I don't mind hearing an accent. I even gave examples where I actually found Kumi's English quite enjoyable "Is This Trap?", "Real Emotion", "That Ain't Cool". Her English in these songs is understandable for the most part, but you can still hear her accent, and I am fine with that. With regards of "Real Emotion" and "That Ain't Cool", you can tell Kumi actually took extra care with her pronunciation while recording, as she was under the impression that "Real Emotion" would be in the English release of FFX-2, and she was working closely with Fergie for "That Ain't Cool".

 

With regards to the this being a Japanese thing, and the Japanese audience understands it so it's fine. If this is the case, then why do native English speakers not Engrish up their music to appeal to the Japanese audience? Utada Hikaru, Nana Tanimura, melody, Faky, Crystal Kay, and I could go on and on... Even non-native English speakers, like BoA (listed above), still try to pronounce their English as best they can. Whether it's in a Japanese song or not.

 

My comparison with K-pop, is that they (popular mainstream artists at least) have coherent English hooks, that English speakers can actually understand and sing along to, even if they don't understand Korean. And whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of the old J-pop fans have crossed over to K-pop, and to say that this hasn't influenced the way people view J-pop just isn't true.

 

I have been a J-pop fan for well over a decade now, so I don't need to "get used" to the English, I already am used to it. But it's a different time now. K-pop has gone international, and J-pop has fallen by the wayside in that regard. And so when people ask why they don't enjoy J-pop as much these days, the connection is pretty obvious for me. But I guess since Kumi makes music mainly for a Japanese audience, why should she give a shit about improving the English? Oh, let's not forget the success of many K-pop artists who cross-over into the Japanese market. So Kumi is directly competing with K-pop artists.

 

As a fan, I'm just giving constructive criticism for what she can improve upon in her music. I know she can do better with her English, because she already has in the past.

And say what you want, but at least artists like Ayu and Namie are trying to improve the English in their music, whereas Kumi has been inconsistent at best.

 

 

P2: You forgot to mention that the k-pop artists that have coherent english hooks are actually born in the US.

That's just like excusing Utada as "she's japanese but her english is good"

When she is actually north american.

 

 

 

Y: That's absolutely untrue

 

For arguments sake, we'll use solo artists as a comparison.

 

Lee Hi, BoA, Park Bom and IU all have good English, and were not born in America or overseas.

 

 

 

E: Y, just because some of the artists happen to have better English skills doesn't mean they have to butcher words for the sake of "Engrish" and that others have to follow suit and brush up on their grammar. I mean, yeah, if you care about this and want t be on par with this guys then sure, but the market doesn't require it so no one strives for that perfect pronunciation. Great English? - good; bad English? - get over it.

 

 

T: The thing is, Korea and Japan in general are vastly different countries culture wise and politically.  In particular Korea has a long history with the US and modern pop culture seriously began to show influences especially in the 90s when R&B was popularized.  And yes, the english language along with it (ever heard FinKL's english at the beginning?).  K-pop's priorities are different in almost every way from J-pop so attempting to compare the two doesn't.. work.  English is a hot trend in Korea: as well as expanding their music in the US and the very, very obvious Western influences in their style and especially dance-wise.  It's not necessarily even about sales in the US.. after all, despite having legions of fans BoA's american album flopped so hard.

 

 

J-pop right now is all about idol culture (the obvious main focus) and has generally been more.. centralized to its own style.  If the artist is a native speaker that's great but no one actually cares all that much.  Anyone remember the girls from Coconuts Musume?  When Mika Todd was in Minimoni, despite being American, she actually started changing her (correct) English pronunciation to something that resembled light Engrish. ("Unda ze moonright").  J-pop is essentially for Japan: if there are overseas fans, it's kinda like, take it as is and enjoy.

 

 

P2: Park Bom (born March 24, 1984) is a South Korean singer.[1] She was born in Seoul, South Korea, and later moved to the United States where she learned English.

 

BoA underwent two years of training (involving vocal, dance, English, and Japanese lessons), and at the age of thirteen released...

 

 

so...the other ones I couldnt find tho I am pretty sure they've had the same education since their childhood among many other things we know k-pop idols go through before the public get to know them.

 

 

 

Y: None of the artists I listed were born in the US, nor did they grow up learning English natively from birth. They had to learn English later in life, and in BoA's case per your example. She learned English for her career, and this has only helped her with regards to the quality of her music and lyrics. Kumi is 33, has been using English throughout her entire musical career, and I barely see any growth in her English pronunciation what so ever. Whereas her peers, Namie and Ayu, have both shown growth in this aspect.

 

I don't even care if Kumi or any artist can actually speak English. But when you're using English in your music, at least put in the effort in pronouncing it. Again, I will go back to the same example that I have used before. If you listen to "Real Emotion" vs something like "Hotel", you can see effort in one vs no effort in the other. My issue is with the inconsistency in her music.

 

And I don't understand why Japanese artists get a pass on having horrid English in their music. But when someone like Leah Dizon was still around, people were always criticizing her on her Japanese pronunciation. And it wasn't even Japanese people criticizing her, it was international members on the old J-pop Central forums.

 

Also K-pop and J-pop are not as separate as some of you make it out to be. More and more K-pop artists are crossing over to Japan and finding huge amounts of success within that market. Clearly the Japanese audience likes something about the K-pop style, and Japanese artists like Kumi are in direct competition with these Korean artists. And like it or not, Kumi's type of music is more in line with K-pop's style of music than it is with anything else that's currently popular in Japan.

 

 

E: You forget another point. In most cases the pronunciation comes from the vocal producer who works with the artist on the song. If the vocal producer doesn't care about the pronunciation then we'll have "HOTEL" for instance, and when he or she does we get "real Emotion". For another example you can look at Namie's "FEEL" and "genic", the first one obviously having better pronunciation despite being released 2 years earlier.

 

 

A: Y, I think if where is more Japanese in a song and just some random English words/lines here and there it can be a bit tricky to switch from one accent to another. That is why their English sounds better in a full English song. Just my theory. I think she did improve, just HOTEL is a mess, done in purpose, most lines make no sense. She sounds great in U KNOW or IS THIS TRAP? (while to me "real Emotion" is totally butchered... there is even a parody of it)

 

 

P2: Y, do you really think K-pop is still a thing in japan? It's gone.

 

 

P: K-Pop is fake, pretentious and plastic. Of course kpop singers are good at english, they go through years of training to become perfect, souless and polished idols so they can mock american videos and songs.

Don't get me wrong, pop culture is very much like this everywhere in the world but at least many jpop acts have fun with it and mix global music/fashion trends with their culture...and that might also mean funny Engrish, and I'll take that over CL's rubbish solo singles any day, even if her English is pitch perfect.

 

_________________

 

 

Thoughts? I thought the Engrish was odd at first, but then I got used to it, and then I started moving away from pop where I think it is more of an issue due to more of a use of English as a trendy thing. I feel as I don't really encounter it that much anymore.

 

I do think KPop has a better grasp on English.

 

 

A song relevant to this topic:

 

[Ihavepopcorn]

tldr maybe?

[SOWONderful]

Who read it all?

[DocumentaLy]

tldr maybe?

 

 

Who read it all?

 

This thread is for literate people only.

[Ihavepopcorn]

This thread is for literate people only.

 

[Athena]

I sorta agree with Y. Kpop does have a better grasp (not perfect but still better) on English but it's a bit obvious why. They try to appeal to more Western audiences. The other Asian music industries don't really do this. For example, I could not stand the Engrish in the collab between Jolin and Namie. It ruined the song for me.

[diphylleia grayi]

I'm unbothered.

[Hosh]

japanese people still listen to kpop. one of my friends is from tokyo and says her younger family members are obsessed with it

[DocumentaLy]

I'm unbothered.

 

Let's remember:

 

 

japanese people still listen to kpop. one of my friends is from tokyo and says her younger family members are obsessed with it

 

But it's not something that is mainstream.

[Trixbox]

I don't think jpop couldn't be bothered in making things right with regards to its engrish. It's cringeworthy only to english speakers.

 

Jpop doesn't really market itself internationally, kpop does. 

[Hosh]

 

But it's not something that is mainstream.

it's not "mainstream" in south korea either.

[DocumentaLy]

it's not "mainstream" in south korea either.

 

It's a completely different thing in Japan though.

[Midna]

Well, I started skimming towards the end but i read 3/4 of it in full.

 

The first user wasn't wrong about Kuu btw. I feel the same way about her English. Ayu and Namie have IMPROVED heaps with their English pronunciation over the years, with Ayu having the best pronunciation out of the three.

 

Anyways, the english doesn't really bother me as much anymore because whatever. Random english words are gonna appear in the song, I can't do anything about it. TBH. I find that the english in Japanese songs make MUCH more sense than the ones in Kpop (it just seems like filler to me). That being said, the artists I listen to have pretty good or understandable pronunciation (yes, this INCLUDES Arashi). As long as the song isn't mainly in English, Idrc. 

 

edit

 

But then again, I don't really listen to Kpop anymore so I don't actually know how the english is used now. It was pretty random back then

[Obelisk]

I read every single piece of it, it was very interesting.

 

I think, one of the users there is a koreaboo.

 

This conversation is very english centric, they probably don't even realize how much english centric this conversation is. This is so english centric, that they failed to realize one simple thing. They are really forgetting that the main audience ISN'T international, but JAPANESE and for Japanese people Japanized pronunciation is much more easier and understandable.

-------------

There's is a reason, why I dislike acts like Amuro Namie, out of all her songs that I listened, I liked the most HimAWArI. The reasons why I dislike use of english, regardless of an accent:

1. English creates forced rhythm and its sound really annoying to me.
2. A song that abused with english in most of the times poorly written.
3. Randomly thrown english words just sounds awkward.
4. It use as a purpose of autotune, to hide bad vocals.
5. It just sounds more unprofessional in most of the times.
6. It really annoys me, when they put english only to the purpose of putting english, when the song could survive perfectly without.
7. Songs that are fully in Japanese sounds more harmonic.

 

 

I generally don't think, that song that use so much english should be called Japanese songs.

I guess, songs that use partially english are better then fully in english, but songs that are fully Japanese are so much better. Generally, if the artist or the song is really good then I could forgive, but I would still wish for more Japanese.

[Obelisk]

I don't think jpop couldn't be bothered in making things right with regards to its engrish. It's cringeworthy only to english speakers.

 

Jpop doesn't really market itself internationally, kpop does. 

Exactly!

[correcaminos20]

Am I the only one that finds the artists cited here weird? Ayu, Boa, Koda Kumi?
 

 

That being said, the artists I listen to have pretty good or understandable pronunciation (yes, this INCLUDES Arashi). 

 

What about Ohno's Imazing crazy? I think that's the fault of the producers though. Or the "wani wani" (warning) on Endless Game

 

 

I'm ok with the japanese pronunciation when it's a word used daily in Japan: for example taxi/takushi I wouldn't care how the say it, Yamashita made Arashi pronounce taxi the right way on Fukkatsu Love but it would've been ok if they said takushi in "japanese".

 

When it's a whole phrase in english it does bother me a little.

 

Also I hate all of Shiina Ringo's english versions, it just ruins everything and not because of the pronuncation but the lyrics all together. Like Amagasa in japanese it starts "Matte.." while in english is "Hey there"!! 

[Midna]

Am I the only one that finds the artists cited here weird? Ayu, Boa, Koda Kumi?

 

 

What about Ohno's Imazing crazy? I think that's the fault of the producers though.

 

 

I'm ok with the japanese pronunciation when it's a word used daily in Japan: for example taxi/takushi I wouldn't care how the say it, Yamashita made Arashi pronounce taxi the right way on Fukkatsu Love but it would've been ok if they said takushi in "japanese".

 

When it's a whole phrase in english it does bother me a little.

 

Also I hate all of Shiina Ringo's english versions, it just ruins everything and not because of the pronuncation but the lyrics all together. Like Amagasa in japanese it starts "Matte.." while in english is "Hey there"!! 

 

Imaging Crazy isn't a song i listen to often lol. For the most part, Arashi's eng is understandable XD But ugh Imaging Crazy. One of my least fave Ohno solos (and I quite like 90% of them). They all have their moments lol.

[correcaminos20]

Imaging Crazy isn't a song i listen to often lol. For the most part, Arashi's eng is understandable XD But ugh Imaging Crazy. One of my least fave Ohno solos (and I quite like 90% of them). They all have their moments lol.

Really? Imaging Crazy is my favorite Ohno solo by far, followed by Hit the Floor and Two. 

[Midna]

Really? Imaging Crazy is my favorite Ohno solo by far, followed by Hit the Floor and Two. 

 

cantttttt with it.

 

My favourites are  Akatsuki, Song for Me, and Rain if we go by Top 3. But I love Hit the Floor and Two as well <3 HUNG UP ON TOO <3333

[DocumentaLy]

Am I the only one that finds the artists cited here weird? Ayu, Boa, Koda Kumi?

 

 

Why?

[correcaminos20]

Why?

 

I don't know, they are definitely artists someone who got into J-Pop after 2010, like me, wouldn't name at all. Namie is the only one that strikes me as "current" even if all of them are still active. Anyway not that I find it weird that they are named since they are big name artists but the lack of newer or currently popular acts is what makes it weird.

[correcaminos20]

cantttttt with it.

 

My favourites are  Akatsuki, Song for Me, and Rain if we go by Top 3. But I love Hit the Floor and Two as well <3 HUNG UP ON TOO <3333

Ahh lol, Song for me and Rain are my least favorites. Guess we have opposite tastes when it comes to Ohno's solos.

[blank_stare]

Why are we comparing Japanese English to Korean English when Kpop's aim is for Global but for Japanese it's within their country?

[DocumentaLy]

I don't know, they are definitely artists someone who got into J-Pop after 2010, like me, wouldn't name at all. Namie is the only one that strikes me as "current" even if all of them are still active. Anyway not that I find it weird that they are named since they are big name artists but the lack of newer or currently popular acts is what makes it weird.

 

Well I can't say that the source I got this exchange from is exactly current. They're still very much stuck in the 00s female soloists boom when that was like 2 trends ago.

[UNNIE]

English in both kpop and jpop is cringeworthy and random. I hope they don't use but its bringing them money so I will just mind my own business as they try with speak English only to be sounding like complete rubbish

 

Anyways, that song you showed my yesterday. Where do I buy it or do I have to illegally download it?