What do you think about SM's stance on contracts?

[sasha]

I WANT A DISCUSSION ON TOPIC, NOT AN ELABORATE ANSWERS TO PULL. 

 

SM's lawsuits regarding contracts:

 

 

 

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src: bashing thread

 

 

 

 

Seems like basically since 2002 SM is aware that shall their artist file lawsuit to void their contract it's a high probability that artist wins. The way artist wins is they argue:

 

1. contract offers very little freedom in decision making thus conract is of an employment nature (as opposite to profit-sharing conract) and as any employment contract with >3 years duration is unlawful according to SK's Labor Law the conract is unlawful;
2. compensation is excessive as company should not make artist responsible of investment risks thus compensation == investment-made-in-artist clause is unreasonable.

 

 

but it seems that till nowadays SM keeps offering contracts of the same nature with 7+ yrs durations. granted such contracts allow SM to make greater investments in ambitious plans of creating successful group brands that are promoted both in SK and China/Japan. e.g. DBSK was instantly successful in SK but it took them years to make a name in Japan; EXO-K/EXO-M hit commercial success in SK and China within 2 years after debut. but the thing is judging by the rate of lost lawsuits conracts are quite easily voidable.

 

 

the stance seems to be:

 

we know how to produce commercially successful group brands with idols under these particular contracts thus we will rather risk loosing conracts than change them and as a consequence change the whole managment scheme. and by the way we can make you persona non grata in SK's entertainment industry if you fuck us over sweetheart.

[STORM]

Combination of overwork and low percentage of the profit.

[StrifeRaider]

pretty much all in the poll except for management as they seem to have a firm grab on that part 

[night vale.]

It's amazing how BoA and HoMin have stayed so long and renewed their contracts but I feel bad for the idols who are clearly not happy. At least a few Korean ones escaped.

[gummybear_dragon]

Their contracts suck, but it's the best company to enter in terms of success. If I wanted to be an idol, SM would be totally my style. Their comebacks, nearly all of the recently have been great and they've been spoiling every fandom. It sucks that they treat their idols so terribly, though. Each big three company is slowly becoming more human and paying their artists better, while SM is still trash. (the company)

[amix]

why do people always group together the lawsuits like they all happened under the same exact circumstances

[sasha]

why do people always group together the lawsuits like they all happened under the same exact circumstances

what matters in discussion is that contracts are void not the circumstances.

[coward]

so many companies overwork idols, so I think that that is more like "the straw that broke the camels back".  it's a factor, but it's not the main one.  money & a change of mind would be the biggest factors to me.  they think that they should be getting more money & often times I feel like they decide that being an idol isn't what they really wanted to do.  they either would rather be an actor or just a singer.  if they still wanted to be an idol, they would sue as a group, not as individuals looking to get out.

[Midna]

Let's be real. If the contract was good, they have no reason to leave. It's obvious that the contract isn't great considering the amount of acts that have left and filed a lawsuit against them. Some people are stronger than others, it doesn't make the ones who leave weak. I mean it's sad to see groups break up because of this, but if theyre not happy, I rather they leave then stay and suffer silently. The contracts are wayyy too long imo. Max years should be 5.

[Stay Away]

I suggest kids who want to become idols and their parents to read the contracts first. That's all I have to say. I'm pretty sure that there are companies in SK who are worse than SM. It's just that immigrants in general always get the short end of the stick everywhere.

[sasha]

Let's be real. If the contract was good, they have no reason to leave. It's obvious that the contract isn't great considering the amount of acts that have left and filed a lawsuit against them. Some people are stronger than others, it doesn't make the ones who leave weak. I mean it's sad to see groups break up because of this, but if theyre not happy, I rather they leave then stay and suffer silently. The contracts are wayyy too long imo. Max years should be 5.

 

that's simply not true. in every professional field there is an initial career boost(i don't remember how it's actually called) - you've got your first contract but as soon as you have N+ years of experience and particular skills you're in demand and there are other companies that are ready to offer you better conditions regardless of your obligations to your first contract. i work in IT and i saw people not finish their first contracts because others were ready to take them with dismissal from their former job because of breached contract. 

 

now imagine the demand on well-promoted artist with huge fan-base and with no need of any further investments. and how much better offered contracts could be. SM simply can't compete because for one thing they did make investments and expect some returns. for other they can't offer artist an absolute freedom to decide their activities cause what the point in building group brand if your artists make more money on individual activities thus will want to prioritize those. SM does do alterations though. 

 

if contarcts were 5 yrs there won't be Tohoshinki. nobody would risk sending them to Japan with 5 years of contract. Tohoshinki-2008 is what they would have gotten in the end which is tragic for the company. 

[Treepotbisho]

That we don't know shit about it at all?

[Midna]

that's simply not true. in every professional field there is an initial career boost(i don't remember how it's actually called) - you've got your first contract but as soon as you have N+ years of experience and particular skills you're in demand and there are other companies that are ready to offer you better conditions regardless of your obligations to your first contract. i work in IT and i saw people not finish their first contracts because others were ready to take them with dismissal from their former job because of breached contract.

 

now imagine the demand on well-promoted artist with huge fan-base and with no need of any further investments. and how much better offered contracts could be. SM simply can't compete because for one thing they did make investments and expect some returns. for other they can't offer artist an absolute freedom to decide their activities cause what the point in building group brand if your artists make more money on individual activities thus will want to prioritize those. SM does do alterations though.

 

if contarcts were 5 yrs there won't be Tohoshinki. nobody would risk sending them to Japan with 5 years of contract. Tohoshinki-2008 is what they would have gotten in the end which is tragic for the company.

But how would you explain certain artists that have stayed with their companies for years? What you're saying isn't false, but in talking bout those who have filed lawsuits to get out of them. Yes, they may have been offered better contracts but honestly, people wouldn't file lawsuits for that reason (unless they were truly desperate to get out). Also, the Act may try to negotiate once theyre nearing the end of their period. I mean, with idols there's such a lack of control over their careers, whereas artists and bands are different thing.

 

But five years is humane and more realistic. They could've renewed their contracts. DBSK were geared up for Japan anyways. They already debuted in Japan in 2005, the second year to their debut. I wished they signed with Avex. But that's never gonna happen sigh

[sasha]

But how would you explain certain artists that have stayed with their companies for years? What you're saying isn't false, but in talking bout those who have filed lawsuits to get out of them. Yes, they may have been offered better contracts but honestly, people wouldn't file lawsuits for that reason (unless they were truly desperate to get out). Also, the Act may try to negotiate once theyre nearing the end of their period. I mean, with idols there's such a lack of control over their careers, whereas artists and bands are different thing.

 

But five years is humane and more realistic. They could've renewed their contracts. DBSK were geared up for Japan anyways. They already debuted in Japan in 2005, the second year to their debut. I wished they signed with Avex. But that's never gonna happen sigh

 

loyalty + SM owns their group brand/discography + made alterations in conracts + better conditions for resignation? but then this exact question right back to you. if the main reason is really bad contract and violation of their rights then why Homin, SJ, SNSD didn't take their chances when JYJ's injunction got granted? and why did they resign?

 

it makes sense that male groups on top such as TVXQ was and now EXO is will have the best offers elsewhere out of the whole company tbh.

 

"They could've renewed their contracts". yeah. or they could have signed directly with Avex and some japanese management. but it was not a point. the point was DBSK wouldn't be geared up for Japan in the first place if their contracts were 5 yrs.

[snsdreceipts]

Back in the day, SM didn't treat their idols well. But now they do, all they ask is that the idols prioritize the group's activities and sometimes that's too much to ask.

 

But if an idol wants to leave SM, it's probably for the best. You don't want someone is your group who feels forced to be there, it's why I'm not sad that Jessica is out of SNSD. It suited both the rest of the girls and Sica in the long run.

[SehunsTrophyWife]

i saw this on AKP so i'll just repost it:

 

"The contract:

One party signed it blindly, without much consideration, aiming for fame. The other party signed it willingly, without much compassion, aiming for fortune. 

 

The conclusion:

Both know the contract well. Both at fault for greed and conceit. But none is open to paying compensation."

[Flo86]

Sm should know this situation will happened as soon as their idol famous ..all the better contract and better payment from other company then them... They should try hard to make the idol stay with make them ..offered a better one..back then I see what sm did is try to controlled their idol ,put them under a fear the will fucked up if they leave them.

jyj talk about this in jyj magazine too how when the lawsuit on going they got offered so many contract and they said all contract not different with when they are in sm . and in the end they are with cjes basically a new company and established for maintained jyj activities and we all know they are not under any exclusive contract here...i mean they can go to big and more powerful company with their popularity but I think they are done with Exclusive contract tream..

 

anyway I always think jyj lawsuit with sm not just a problem about money and the length of contract but also a trust ,I read jyj untitled song part 1 lyric and I feel how they are holding to much uncomfortable and insecure feeling and loosing their trust with sm ...and yes i believe homin have this feeling too but toward the end homin feel they will overcome this issue but not with jyj ..basically I think they are done with sm ,jyj said they know they will banned/ blacklisted but they still leave... Some people said because they have a backup company (avex) but jyj also leave them not even in one years after promoted as jjy and start another lawsuit with Japanese company this time... Back then I think is this really worth ...they are in two lawsuit with different country and blacklisted in both country too....are they wanna leave that bad..?

 

I believe the contract in the past is really worst, from the length 13 years+2 years army basically 15 years with the company, I read the compensation money breaking a contract in the past is so ridiculous worst too like you paid back a money when you brought from a gangster...I think this is the reason why jyj lawsuit got support from FTC ,and for now I think the new contract is alot better ..7 years ..thsk released dousite a song who make them soo famous in their five or six years live as idol...that's enough..

[Midna]

loyalty + SM owns their group brand/discography + made alterations in conracts + better conditions for resignation? but then this exact question right back to you. if the main reason is really bad contract and violation of their rights then why Homin, SJ, SNSD didn't take their chances when JYJ's injunction got granted? and why did they resign?

 

it makes sense that male groups on top such as TVXQ was and now EXO is will have the best offers elsewhere out of the whole company tbh.

 

"They could've renewed their contracts". yeah. or they could have signed directly with Avex and some japanese management. but it was not a point. the point was DBSK wouldn't be geared up for Japan in the first place if their contracts were 5 yrs.

Maybe they had better contracts? It's not like everyone gets the same contrsct. You also need to understand that Sunny is part of the group and that may or may not influence the group and their contracts as well. As well, SNSD was never geared up for Japan anyways.

 

Tbh, you keep mentioning Toho and Japan and the five years thing being unrealistic. Imo, it doesn't matter if Toho never went to Japan if they did have the five years. If they didn't go to Japan, they didn't. It wouldn't matter then. We wouldn't even care if this scenario happened, because it would've never happened to them. They would just be another Kpop group that may or may not try to debut in Japan.

 

But that's not mypoint. Would you want to be stuck in a contract longer than five years that would have penalties if you broke it? I certainly wouldn't. There's a reason why most work contracts generally last one or two years. And you can't really compare entertainment contests to other fields because entertainment is more risky.

 

Dbsk has bad contracts. If they didn't, they wouldn't have left. I knew that a lawsuit was coming because of how overworked they were.

[Yume]

Ever since the details of SM's contracts were brought to the public's eye when JYJ sued the have been urged to change them as the length is too long. I think a lot of people assumed that they had until Exo china line left and it was revealed that they hadn't made any major changes.

Even though I think it is unethical I believe the reason SM hasn't changed their contracts is that they are willing to take the risk of a few idols leaving, but they know that most would stay. The majority of idols under SM would be unable to retain their level of popularity if they left, and if you've noticed no Korean artist has left since JYJ (which is probably why they are still blocking them from broadcast; to send a warning to the artists they still manage of what they would face if they tried to leave). 

 

Long contracts are not necessary for a group to become popular over seas. If the artists were treated right and the agency did what they were supposed to do for the artist, why would they leave? Big Bang, 2pm, Wonder Girl's, 2ne1 are popular in areas like Japan, China, SEA as well, so having contracts that violate regulations doesn't seem to have anything to do with promoting overseas.

[sasha]

Maybe they had better contracts? It's not like everyone gets the same contrsct. You also need to understand that Sunny is part of the group and that may or may not influence the group and their contracts as well. As well, SNSD was never geared up for Japan anyways.

 

Tbh, you keep mentioning Toho and Japan and the five years thing being unrealistic. Imo, it doesn't matter if Toho never went to Japan if they did have the five years. If they didn't go to Japan, they didn't. It wouldn't matter then. We wouldn't even care if this scenario happened, because it would've never happened to them. They would just be another Kpop group that may or may not try to debut in Japan.

 

But that's not mypoint. Would you want to be stuck in a contract longer than five years that would have penalties if you broke it? I certainly wouldn't. There's a reason why most work contracts generally last one or two years. And you can't really compare entertainment contests to other fields because entertainment is more risky.

 

Dbsk has bad contracts. If they didn't, they wouldn't have left. I knew that a lawsuit was coming because of how overworked they were.

 

i keep mentioning Toho and Japan because it did happen and it happened only because SM secured long-term agreements with 5 idols and because all 5 idols were well informed about purposes of such duration. 

 

what is exactly the point in saying "we as fans would have been happy if contract had been 5 yrs and Japan woudn't even have mattered then"? i imagine we would have been happy if they hadn't broken up or had pull out Shinhwa. because we are/were fans.

 

but the situation was: the company that had had certain business plan that provided introduction of brand to japanese and chinese markets with min risks to company and trainees that had ambitons to be successful idols in SK and beyond. they've met and signed agreement. whose initiative should have it been to bring down the stakes and say "no thank you we are good with 5 yrs in SK"? nobody's. long duration was beneficial to both parties in 2003. 

 

i mean maybe i don't follow JYJ enough but i never heard from them something along the line "we never wanted to debut in Japan or go to China". but clearly they've had a problem with the clause in the contract that secured this particular development in their careers. and with the workload that came with it. 

 

i wouldn't compare their conracts to "most work contracts". the absolute majority of employees in the world are paid monthly wages that compare with minimal wage, they don't have a profit-sharing agreements with their employers nor do they build their careers with the help of millions worth of investments.

 

well i guess that was the long way of saying "i understand the position then-make-duration-5-yrs-what-the-big-deal but i just don't think it has anything to do with the reality of things" 

 

Ever since the details of SM's contracts were brought to the public's eye when JYJ sued the have been urged to change them as the length is too long. I think a lot of people assumed that they had until Exo china line left and it was revealed that they hadn't made any major changes.

Even though I think it is unethical I believe the reason SM hasn't changed their contracts is that they are willing to take the risk of a few idols leaving, but they know that most would stay. The majority of idols under SM would be unable to retain their level of popularity if they left, and if you've noticed no Korean artist has left since JYJ (which is probably why they are still blocking them from broadcast; to send a warning to the artists they still manage of what they would face if they tried to leave). 

 

Long contracts are not necessary for a group to become popular over seas. If the artists were treated right and the agency did what they were supposed to do for the artist, why would they leave? Big Bang, 2pm, Wonder Girl's, 2ne1 are popular in areas like Japan, China, SEA as well, so having contracts that violate regulations doesn't seem to have anything to do with promoting overseas.

 

i do notice that korean members stay and i know about the blocking. it's just i also notice other things.

 

if we talk solely about DBSK - japanese market wasn't an easy place to break into when they debuted. but after 2011 when hallyu wave hit Japan - yeah it's true that many groups can do dome toures whithout much promotion here. 

 

i agree they are not necessary after 2010-2012 - it's just the way SM prefers to debut groups

[mel_mel]

Boring....

[Midna]

i keep mentioning Toho and Japan because it did happen and it happened only because SM secured long-term agreements with 5 idols and because all 5 idols were well informed about purposes of such duration.

 

what is exactly the point in saying "we as fans would have been happy if contract had been 5 yrs and Japan woudn't even have mattered then"? i imagine we would have been happy if they hadn't broken up or had pull out Shinhwa. because we are/were fans.

 

but the situation was: the company that had had certain business plan that provided introduction of brand to japanese and chinese markets with min risks to company and trainees that had ambitons to be successful idols in SK and beyond. they've met and signed agreement. whose initiative should have it been to bring down the stakes and say "no thank you we are good with 5 yrs in SK"? nobody's. long duration was beneficial to both parties in 2003.

 

i mean maybe i don't follow JYJ enough but i never heard from them something along the line "we never wanted to debut in Japan or go to China". but clearly they've had a problem with the clause in the contract that secured this particular development in their careers. and with the workload that came with it.

 

i wouldn't compare their conracts to "most work contracts". the absolute majority of employees in the world are paid monthly wages that compare with minimal wage, they don't have a profit-sharing agreements with their employers nor do they build their careers with the help of millions worth of investments.

 

well i guess that was the long way of saying "i understand the position then-make-duration-5-yrs-what-the-big-deal but i just don't think it has anything to do with the reality of things"

 

 

i do notice that korean members stay and i know about the blocking. it's just i also notice other things.

 

if we talk solely about DBSK - japanese market wasn't an easy place to break into when they debuted. but after 2011 when hallyu wave hit Japan - yeah it's true that many groups can do dome toures whithout much promotion here.

 

i agree they are not necessary after 2010-2012 - it's just the way SM prefers to debut groups

I mean if you think 7-13year contracts is ethical.. You do you I guess.

[sasha]

I mean if you think 7-13year contracts is ethical.. You do you I guess.

 

ethic is not something abstract you can practice with no relation to reality. law is. so i guess i do.