How much did damage Johnny and AkiP did to jpop post 2011?

[gyrobot]

http://antikpopfangirl.blogspot.ca/2015/04/kpopalypse-defence-league-three.html?showComment=1430087831037&m=1#c5095285794577229192

 

While the oped was about the appeal of kpop to International fans. Kpopkalypse took stabs at jpop being a stale piece of shit. Looking at JE and 48G's popularity I ask you this: Did JE cripple the jpop industry?

[Mandilinn]

No. There was good music out there, but at times you had to do some digging. There's so many genres/industries outside idols and mainstream pop. The problem was (and still is) that people aren't willing to search for it or go outside the mainstream. They want something just like K-Pop groups, and at times they will seem outdated in comparison (though I'd argue that the J-idol industry is at times still more diverse that Korea's).

 

 

[NATE]

The idea that two entities, especially one that has been popular since the 1960s, has somehow crippled the industry is ridiculous. Jpop's problems have less to do with these two and more to do with the aging fossils that run the industry. I will admit the Japanese mainstream is pretty stale right now, but I wouldn't blame it on these idols. 

 

Nonetheless, like Mandilinn says Jpop doesn't cater itself to those who want things easily. You have to look for you want, probably because the industry is so fragmented and there's so much outside the mainstream. Kpop fans seem to want super glitzy, super trendy idols, which perhaps Jpop doesn't offer as readily. But I would say the majority of Kpop groups don't have much substance at all and they all pretty much follow the same trends. One or two idols may do something that seems left field, but that's not the majority. The majority is pretty samey. I would wager that it's actually the Kpop industry with their idols who have crippled their own industry, putting their music into a little box and disallowing any true diversity to find success internationally through the hallyu wave. I don't listen to Japanese idols, but quickly taking a glance at them I can see many of them have their own characteristics, they're not simply knock-offs of AKB48. While every time I go to Korean BBQ, I can watch their video playlist and virtually every idol is the same especially the ones that are not from big agencies.

 

And as for something that writer brings up, they'd probably be surprised just how many Jpop songs are composed by foreigners. Foreign composers in Japan is nothing new, they've been around since the 80s.

[Midna]

I blame it on the shitty EDM trend tbh. Some idol groups released some really nice bops in the past few years.

[Amaya]

I pay not attention to kpopalypse he just gripes on japanese music but as Mandi and NATE said you need to invest some effort and Japanese music is not jidol music only and is broad and in all honesty am glad for that because kpop gets old and am not here for all the lame pop but importantly ass NATE said these j-idols are stagnant mainly due to the old ppl behind the scenes. But idc I like everything else outside of j-idol music  

[Ryusenkai]

Since when has the J-music industry been crippled?  Taken as a whole, Japan's music market today is perhaps more diverse than its ever been, considering that it's home to just about every genre under the sun and a slew of variants of each.  Even if we're speaking about the mainstream sector, which has seen better days in some regards, there are still a number of respectable songs and records produced from it each year.  Beyond that, I'd contend that the industry is in something of a flux right now as companies are working to adapt to a changing consumer landscape; as a result, there's not really a dominant 'trend' that's as easily identifiable as there's been in the past, and that might create the illusion that whatever gets pushed the most image-wise is what's most popular.  If you have been paying attention to the way sounds have been progressing these past few years, however, there's been something of an 'old school' and adult contemporary revival going on (city pop poking its head out of the woodwork a lot more than it has in years, for example) and that's where I predict the mainstream sound will eventually head in the near future.

 

As Mandi and NATE have said though, the Japanese music industry does ask a certain amount of commitment from people if they want to see just how diverse it actually is.  You have to be willing to dig, to try music from artists that you've never heard of before just because a release looks or sounds interesting.  That's how you'll often find some of the best music each year - hell, my #5 album last year (Emerald's excellent "Nostalgical Parade") was a record that I decided to download because I thought the cover's art design was nice.  You need to be open to that kind of thing, or you won't really be able to get the most out of what the Japanese market offers.  If you have even a vague idea of what you want though, I guarantee that you can probably find it with enough searching, since every niche gets catered to in some form, even if it doesn't end up being particularly popular in the end.

 

 

And as for something that writer brings up, they'd probably be surprised just how many Jpop songs are composed by foreigners. Foreign composers in Japan is nothing new, they've been around since the 80s.

 

Just to underscore this and give an example, I'll bring up Yamashita Tatsuro's "Big Wave", which was a groundbreaking soundtrack album in Japan during the mid-1980s that was largely co-written with Alan O'Day, a fairly famous songwriter from the United States around that time.  Foreign songwriters and composers being involved in Japanese music is nothing new in the least, and they've been integral to some pretty important projects in the industry over the years.

[DocumentaLy]

http://antikpopfangirl.blogspot.ca/2015/04/kpopalypse-defence-league-three.html?showComment=1430087831037&m=1#c5095285794577229192

 

While the oped was about the appeal of kpop to International fans. Kpopkalypse took stabs at jpop being a stale piece of shit. Looking at JE and 48G's popularity I ask you this: Did JE cripple the jpop industry?

 

When will people realize that there is more to Japanese music than JE and 48s? I feel as if this idol-centric view of Japanese music by KPop fans is based on the fact that KPop is so heavily centered around idols.

 

I feel as if right now the quality of Japanese music is as good as ever. It's just not in the mainstream for the most part. There is a lot of stuff happening under the surface that people don't want to look for or aren't paying attention to. People only really want to pay attention to the mainstream, which has been stale for years for the most part. But the thing is though is that the mainstream changes every few years. Like did anyone think a decade ago that Ayu would be struggling to sell 50k while a female idol group would be selling millions a year? I already see a change coming. The idol groups' sales are going down as is their relevance to the public, there is the rise of idol alternatives, and also the indie scene is coming into the mainstream. Let's also no forget that there are several veteran acts who have been around for decades who are outselling the idols everyone focuses on. How many people over the age of 30, let alone 50, would be seen on a Korean year end music show?

 

And his ideas on KPop don't make it sound that interesting. It sounds like a mess of dancing, arguing, and masturbating.

 

 

No. There was good music out there, but at times you had to do some digging. There's so many genres/industries outside idols and mainstream pop. The problem was (and still is) that people aren't willing to search for it or go outside the mainstream. They want something just like K-Pop groups, and at times they will seem outdated in comparison (though I'd argue that the J-idol industry is at times still more diverse that Korea's).

 

I think one thing with a lot of KPop fans is that they want the extra when it comes to music. A lot of them can't take just music. They want variety shows, they want dramas, they want selfies, they want personalities. They want the extra. A lot of Japanese acts don't really do that so there isn't an interest in them.

 

And the J-idol industry is much more diverse. Like who is the Korean Dempagumi.inc? Or the Korean Especia? Or the Korean lyrical school? I did remember Korea trying to make a BABYMETAL but everyone saw it for the copy that it was. On the other hand, KPop fans want Japanese idols who are sexy and talented and swaggy. The closest thing to that is LDH (I'm not trying to start an argument right now so let's not). They won't venture into the Japanese hip hop scene to find the swag because it's not as if Japanese rappers are going to be competing in athletic events on tv weekly so that they can get a laugh.

 

 

The idea that two entities, especially one that has been popular since the 1960s, has somehow crippled the industry is ridiculous. Jpop's problems have less to do with these two and more to do with the aging fossils that run the industry. I will admit the Japanese mainstream is pretty stale right now, but I wouldn't blame it on these idols. 

 

Nonetheless, like Mandilinn says Jpop doesn't cater itself to those who want things easily. You have to look for you want, probably because the industry is so fragmented and there's so much outside the mainstream. Kpop fans seem to want super glitzy, super trendy idols, which perhaps Jpop doesn't offer as readily. But I would say the majority of Kpop groups don't have much substance at all and they all pretty much follow the same trends. One or two idols may do something that seems left field, but that's not the majority. The majority is pretty samey. I would wager that it's actually the Kpop industry with their idols who have crippled their own industry, putting their music into a little box and disallowing any true diversity to find success internationally through the hallyu wave. I don't listen to Japanese idols, but quickly taking a glance at them I can see many of them have their own characteristics, they're not simply knock-offs of AKB48. While every time I go to Korean BBQ, I can watch their video playlist and virtually every idol is the same especially the ones that are not from big agencies.

 

And as for something that writer brings up, they'd probably be surprised just how many Jpop songs are composed by foreigners. Foreign composers in Japan is nothing new, they've been around since the 80s.

 

Look at this thread: http://onehallyu.com/topic/165208-is-there-only-one-concept-for-kpop-boybands-now/

 

So many KPop fans agree that there is a lack of diversity of concepts in KPop. It's like every boyband wants to be Big Bang. And every girl group want to be Sistar. The songs and concepts are so interchangeable that these groups have no sort of identity. 

 

Hallyu's music front is centered on idols and nothing else really. On the Japanese side, idols have had a following internationally but the rock scene has also had a very healthy following. I mean X JAPAN and L'Arc~en~Ciel have both had solo concerts at Madison Square Garden, which is something that KPop's only done with the SM company concert. Then you also have the female soloists who have a large international following still.

 

 

I blame it on the shitty EDM trend tbh. Some idol groups released some really nice bops in the past few years.

 

EDM killed J-Urban. A lot of urban acts went EDM in the past few years and it did nothing for their careers. If anything, it turned off the remaining fans they did have. I still believe that when the urban scene stopped being mainstream, some of the sexiness and fire left Japanese music.

[Midna]

When will people realize that there is more to Japanese music than JE and 48s? I feel as if this idol-centric view of Japanese music by KPop fans is based on the fact that KPop is so heavily centered around idols.

 

I feel as if right now the quality of Japanese music is as good as ever. It's just not in the mainstream for the most part. There is a lot of stuff happening under the surface that people don't want to look for or aren't paying attention to. People only really want to pay attention to the mainstream, which has been stale for years for the most part. But the thing is though is that the mainstream changes every few years. Like did anyone think a decade ago that Ayu would be struggling to sell 50k while a female idol group would be selling millions a year? I already see a change coming. The idol groups' sales are going down as is their relevance to the public, there is the rise of idol alternatives, and also the indie scene is coming into the mainstream. Let's also no forget that there are several veteran acts who have been around for decades who are outselling the idols everyone focuses on.

 

And his ideas on KPop don't make it sound that interesting.

 

 

 

I think one thing with a lot of KPop fans is that they want the extra when it comes to music. A lot of them can't take just music. They want variety shows, they want dramas, they want selfies, they want personalities. They want the extra. A lot of Japanese acts don't really do that so there isn't an interest in them.

 

And the J-idol industry is much more diverse. Like who is the Korean Dempagumi.inc? Or the Korean Especia? Or the Korean lyrical school? I did remember Korea trying to make a BABYMETAL but everyone saw it for the copy that it was. On the other hand, KPop fans want Japanese idols who are sexy and talented and swaggy. The closest thing to that is LDH (I'm not trying to start an argument right now so let's not). They won't venture into the Japanese hip hop scene to find the swag because it's not as if Japanese rappers are going to be competing in athletic events on tv weekly so that they can get a laugh.

 

 

 

Look at this thread: http://onehallyu.com/topic/165208-is-there-only-one-concept-for-kpop-boybands-now/

 

So many KPop fans agree that there is a lack of diversity of concepts in KPop. It's like every boyband want to be Big Bang. And every girl group want to be Sistar. The songs and concepts are so interchangeable that these groups have no sort of identity. 

 

Hallyu's music front is centered on idols and nothing else really. On the Japanese side, idols have had a following internationally but the rock scene has also had a very healthy following. I mean X JAPAN and L'Arc~en~Ciel have both had solo concerts at Madison Square Garden, which is something that KPop's only done with the SM company concert. Then you also have the female soloists who have a large international following still.

 

 

 

EDM killed J-Urban. A lot of urban acts went EDM in the past few years and it did nothing for their careers. If anything, it turned off the remaining fans they did have. I still believe that when the urban scene stopped being mainstream, some of the sexiness and fire left Japanese music.

 

And then the acts (female soloists at least) decided to sing basic cellphone ballads

 

[IceHism]

"JE and 48 cripple jpop industry"

 

 

wtf am i even reading right here.  if anything, they're the only ones making sure the japanese music industry doesn't suffer a huge drop.

[whitedove]

How are Johnnys damaging Jpop post-2011 though? They've always been around since the 70s and have always had big-hitters. From acts who are currently active, SMAP, KinKi Kids, KAT-TUN have had million-selling singles PRE-2011. TOKIO, V6, Arashi have had double platinum singles. Others have had platinum singles. All these before 2011 and nobody said they damaged Jpop back then?

 

The only thing they're guilty of is by keeping a fanbase for years and keep selling as good.

[gyrobot]

How are Johnnys damaging Jpop post-2011 though? They've always been around since the 70s and have always had big-hitters. From acts who are currently active, SMAP, KinKi Kids, KAT-TUN have had million-selling singles PRE-2011. TOKIO, V6, Arashi have had double platinum singles. Others have had platinum singles. All these before 2011 and nobody said they damaged Jpop back then?

 

The only thing they're guilty of is by keeping a fanbase for years and keep selling as good.

Copyright act hurt the smaller groups exposure wise. Since Johnny doesnt have a digital presence. They are unaffected and thus allowed to dominate the charts

[Sana Muñequita Linda]

I think I found the way of naming one of my problems with Jpop and Kpop. In Western music, I only look for the music for the most part. In Jpop and Kpop, I look more for the whole package for the most part. And that's a problem. In spite of my lack of knowledge about JP and SK music, I think the Japanese one is much diverse, auctoctonous and unique, there's for example Yellow Magic Orchestra or Southern All Stars (not my cup of tea tbh, but their sound is distinctive!), where else could I find that?

And yeah, I admit I don't dig enough!

 

I have a petition for Kpop and Jpop tho, could they reduce the basic Scandinavian composed tracks and the buyable demos? Sure I really love BoA's Hurricane Venus and EXILE's NEW HORIZON, but I also want to see the Japanese and Korean flavours. SMEnt have Young-jin Yoo and LDH have T. Kura for example, being capable of mixing influences in appealing ways.

[racquelle2005]

by cockblocking lesser boy groups 

[DocumentaLy]

Copyright act hurt the smaller groups exposure wise. Since Johnny doesnt have a digital presence. They are unaffected and thus allowed to dominate the charts

 

What smaller groups?

[gyrobot]

To be fair LDH and JE had healthy competition but after the DCA JE topped the charts while colluding with 48g for chart control. This discourages creativity and concept development. On an idol vs idol format. Kidols change most of the time except for a few. Jidols remains thhe same. So you wont see akb48 older members do a sexually mature/Fiesty and sexy song as a "just for the older fans". They remain innocent until graduation.

[mochichan]

48G and JE just overrun the physical charts. They don't prevent other artists and solos especially when they do better on digital charts than idols. People just don't want to dig more

 

So you wont see akb48 older members do a sexually mature/Fiesty and sexy song as a "just for the older fans". They remain innocent until graduation.

Uh yeah they have done those...

 

https://vimeo.com/120898895

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bps9f_akb48-yurigumi-ambulance_tv

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzv9x3_yuuwaku-no-garter-kojima-haruna-ver_na

[DocumentaLy]

To be fair LDH and JE had healthy competition but after the DCA JE topped the charts while colluding with 48g for chart control. This discourages creativity and concept development. On an idol vs idol format. Kidols change most of the time except for a few. Jidols remains thhe same. So you wont see akb48 older members do a sexually mature/Fiesty and sexy song as a "just for the older fans". They remain innocent until graduation.

 

The thing I don't get about you is if you dislike J-idols so much, why don't you look outside of the idol world to find what you want? This isn't KPop where the idol world is basically the end all be all of the music world.

[whitedove]

Copyright act hurt the smaller groups exposure wise. Since Johnny doesnt have a digital presence. They are unaffected and thus allowed to dominate the charts

As if Johnnys don't have restrictions of their own.

[gyrobot]

The thing I don't get about you is if you dislike J-idols so much, why don't you look outside of the idol world to find what you want? This isn't KPop where the idol world is basically the end all be all of the music world.

 

It is the "face" of music for Asian media geeks. I tried a couple of times to ask around for JPOP that fulfills some of my requests and the communities I have to asked are either A) hostile or b) desolate. 

 

This was made worse when our city became more or less sterile, interesting Japanese media stores replaced with cookie cutter chain stores, a fractured geekdom that hasn't recovered and I can become a grumpy fan who sees little good in j-idols.

[DocumentaLy]

It is the "face" of music for Asian media geeks. I tried a couple of times to ask around for JPOP that fulfills some of my requests and the communities I have to asked are either A) hostile or b) desolate. 

 

This was made worse when our city became more or less sterile, interesting Japanese media stores replaced with cookie cutter chain stores, a fractured geekdom that hasn't recovered and I can become a grumpy fan who sees little good in j-idols.

 

Is it really the face? I don't think it is at all. A lot of people who actually follow the scene don't. A lot of the time there is a disconnect between what international fans are "given" and what is actually popular. I would say the people here fall more in the latter group. We know more about the actual scene than a lot of other international fans who just take whatever is "given" to them. There is more than a surface level understanding of the scene here.

 

I don't remember your requests but I'm sure people weren't hostile. And what do you mean by desolate?

 

And if you don't like J-idols, look elsewhere. Most people here aren't even into J-idols. How are they surviving? By being into other scenes within the Japanese industry.

[thesedays]

The idea that two entities, especially one that has been popular since the 1960s, has somehow crippled the industry is ridiculous. Jpop's problems have less to do with these two and more to do with the aging fossils that run the industry. I will admit the Japanese mainstream is pretty stale right now, but I wouldn't blame it on these idols. 

 

 

I mean, I completely agree with you but one of those old fossils is Johnny's in itself. So yeah, he definitely helped make the Jpop industry so backwards and old-fashioned. But it didn't start in 2011.

 

 

"JE and 48 cripple jpop industry"

 

 

wtf am i even reading right here.  if anything, they're the only ones making sure the japanese music industry doesn't suffer a huge drop

.

That's also true....

[blank_stare]

It is the "face" of music for Asian media geeks. I tried a couple of times to ask around for JPOP that fulfills some of my requests and the communities I have to asked are either A) hostile or b) desolate. 

 

This was made worse when our city became more or less sterile, interesting Japanese media stores replaced with cookie cutter chain stores, a fractured geekdom that hasn't recovered and I can become a grumpy fan who sees little good in j-idols.

 

I see China being more the face of everything Asian and seconded would be Japanese.

 

 

What Japanese scene lacks of today is innovation and yes to those old geezer comments in the business. They really need to get in with the times/

[gyrobot]

Is it really the face? I don't think it is at all. A lot of people who actually follow the scene don't. A lot of the time there is a disconnect between what international fans are "given" and what is actually popular. I would say the people here fall more in the latter group. We know more about the actual scene than a lot of other international fans who just take whatever is "given" to them. There is more than a surface level understanding of the scene here.

 

I don't remember your requests but I'm sure people weren't hostile. And what do you mean by desolate?

 

And if you don't like J-idols, look elsewhere. Most people here aren't even into J-idols. How are they surviving? By being into other scenes within the Japanese industry.

 

I was talking about other boards aside from Onehallyu, you guys are great at finding alternative stuff but ask a question about if there are any recent girl groups or artists being spiritual successors to KuMama or something similar and you will either get dirty looks or literally no responses because of how small the community is.

[DocumentaLy]

I see China being more the face of everything Asian and seconded would be Japanese.

 

 

What Japanese scene lacks of today is innovation and yes to those old geezer comments in the business. They really need to get in with the times/

 

As far as media goes, it's definitely not China. Maybe if you're talking about movies.

 

There is innovation, just not at the top of the scene. But then again, does the top of any scene every really innovate? Things always work their way up instead of working their way down.

 

 

I was talking about other boards aside from Onehallyu, you guys are great at finding alternative stuff but ask a question about if there are any recent girl groups or artists being spiritual successors to KuMama or something similar and you will either get dirty looks or literally no responses because of how small the community is.

 

The thing about Japan is that nobody is really interested in reviving that trend right now. Japan is in a different mindset now. That trend is passe now and nobody wants to be part of a passe trend.

[gyrobot]

And given the jidol domination it will never change. A complacent fandom as wanted by AkiP and Johnny.