"It G Ma" VS "U Guessed It", a Post on the Topic of Musical/Cultural Appropriation

[Giffica]

This post started out as a reply to some comments and criticisms of the controversy of It G Ma copying U Guessed It, and evolved into something more. I hope you enjoy, and respond/criticize my points as I enjoy lengthy constructive discussion. 

Let me just start out with this, directly stealing an artists work is ridiculous. However, people are confusing that with Kpop "copying the west." They are two entirely different points, and should be addressed as such. 

 

The first is simply wrong. Don't steal an artists work. Ever. (Unless it's for some satirical purpose possibly, but eh) I leave this at that, as I have really said enough. It's wrong, it's plagiarism, it's gross. Don't do it. 

 

The second point, cultural appropriation isn't new in the slightest. The Romanesque movement of art was cultural appropriation of Roman art styles across europe. It was either an adaptation of the former stlye, or an evolution of those styles with nuanced additions thrown in. Many Kpop songs, especially YG, are heavily influenced by western hip hop, but that doesn't mean it's "copying" western hip hop anymore than France and England copied German born Romanticism. It's adaptive cultural appropriation of artistic styles, not a copy. In the same way the French artist's chose to paint/sculpt Napoleon rather than German figure heads, Kpop artists choose to use different influences and nuances that better fit their countries styles. It's more cross racial, as it's going from White/Black/Hispanic America to Asian Korea, but the French hated the Germans more than these groups of people hate each other today. The French felt the Germans were FAR more different than Whites/Blacks/Hispanics think Asians are. 

 

Just because I am the best has Hip Hop visuals with electronic hip hop sounds doesn't mean it's a copy of Western hip hop. Influenced? Absolutely, no denying that, but the reality is that it's a cultural adaptation. 

 

The issue is simple, no one in America complains the world wears Jeans. That's one of the MOST American things POSSIBLE. It is the essence OF American culture, and one of the original cultural identities of the American people. However, every other culture wears them, some in different ways, or styles. Some adapt their fashions based on Western fashions with clothes in general. However, music specifically has become some global nationalism that groups of people like to identify with based on race, or country. Which makes total sense, but those same people who complain HIP HOP IS BLACK (even within America this is an issue, as many Black people feel White/Hispanic people have no business making, or even listening to Hip Hop) are the very same people who don't care that the rest of the world wears Jeans, or that English is just a mix of Norse, Latin, Saxon/Germanic and French and really is a cultural rip off. 

 

Cultural identity is this weird sess pool of rejection and acceptance of the strangest simple things. Even in a country so globalized as the melting pot of America, "culture" (which isn't even a thing, what fucking eating German Hamburgers/Hot Dogs, Belgium Fries that we call French Fries cause our insensitivity is such that Belgium doesn't exist cause it used to be part of France, listening to hip hop music which has it's roots in african folk songs so it's not even American in the first fucking place, even the concept of soap is a French thing for the love of god. We use Armoires and drink Beer, the most European drink possible. (not to mention Vodka, Rum, and Whiskey). Nothing about this country is uniquely American in any way, shape or form. It's all cultural appropriation, the same way Korean's adapted American music for their own audience. The same way we adapted British music for an American audience and started using it as a political tool for Vietnam, and based one of our most dynamic periods (The 60's) on British Rock. The hypocrisy stems from an ignorance of the reality of culture in a global society.

The point I'm trying to make here is that while "copying" is wrong, cultural appropriation is not. It's what America BUILT IT'S IDENTITY ON. I'm not saying America is the only country who dislikes it, Japan dislikes when the rest of Asia is influenced by their shit too, but the specific issue of Kpop music is that Kpop is a copy of Western, more specifically American, music. Is One Direction the British copying Back Street Boys and NSync? Of course not. So why are Korean rappers, who, for the most part, lived in America at some point (look towards the lord and gods of Korean hip hop, Tiger JK, Yoon Mi Rae, and Tablo, one of them BEING BLACK AND AMERICAN) criticized for their influence from American hip hop?


This problem seems to be unique to Hip Hop. I'm not sure why. The only possibility I can come up with is that Hip Hop has become the cultural equivalent to the British drinking Tea, or the Spanish seista. It's what ties an entire racial/ethnic group of people together, and differentiates them from the rest of society. Within America Hip Hop is the black definition of cultural and success. A vast, vast, VAST majority of successful African American's are either rappers, or sports players. There are many, many white and hispanic sports players, so sports it's not unique to them. Hip Hop, with the exception of Eminem, is unique to them. This is why Iggy arrived to such virulent hate, and backlash. She's moving in on "black culture." Not just music, but it's a cultural identity she tries to establish for herself that she does not fit in. That's the way Korea's hip hop scene is viewed, and it's lack of an attempt to remain true to the original doesn't help either. It's far enough different, but still closely the same that it seems like it's "wannabe."

That's part of the problem. Korean hip hop, sadly, has done little to differentiate itself in the same way JRock did. The roots of Korean hip hop stem from 90's style beats used by Epik High, mostly. Yes, there were people like Tasha, but they were exactly the same as well. "Old school" is what it's essentially referred to, and it's still American hip hop. Born Hater. This song is extremely important to execute my point. It's old school. It's not uniquely Korean. (Even conceptually, its western religious symbolism). It is by far one of my favorite songs ever, but I'm sad to say, it's not unique. Kpop has this quality to it as a whole, where "foreign" concepts are re-appropriated. Rum Pum Pum Pum with it's Indian influence, can't think of any others cause lel brain derp, but you guys aren't idiots, you get what I'm saying. 

The other part of the problem is that it's not trying to be different. 4minute's Crazy for the love of god, while it sounds AMAZING and EXACTLY my type of jam...it's doing nothing to not be Western. Hello Venus Wiggle Wiggle, again one of my JAMS, but it's so western it's a bit rediculous. Sonamoo's Deja Vu, again, jam AF, but also Western AF. The list goes on, and these are all extremely current. No one is really trying to be different, or unique. With one exception: GDragon. I'm not going to discuss this in depth here, but the reality of Big Bang and GDragon is that they are cultural icons not simply for their musical excellence, but because they adapted the western hip hop influence with korean concepts and styles. Haru Haru is one such example of a "Korean" song. Leaving Good Boy aside, cause FUCK YOU GDRAGON, GDragon tries EXTREMELY hard to be "unique." To his own detriment, but he's doing what is necessary for other Korean rappers and composers. However, the problem is that Korean rappers and composers exist in two forms. "Raised on american rap" types (Tablo, TJK, Swings, Dynamic Duo, Zico, list goes on) and white people writing music for Kpop groups. 

It comes back to the biggest criticism of Kpop as a whole. It's manufactured. While I have argued furiously to show it's not what it seems, and that self composition exists, as we all know, the vast majority of high profile "groups" (SNSD, Sistar, EXO) are actually produced by a bunch of white guys in collab with Koreans. That's PART of the issue. Kpop groups are doing western style songs because they are composed by westerners? Majority of f(x)'s album was made by some white people. Brave Brothers is the biggest offender here, and he does nothing to make it seem like Kpop has a unque quality to it. Perhaps the only example of a "Korean" composer, is Shinsadong. It's no wonder his era is considered a golden age of kpop, and produced some of the best music for T-ara, Beast, 4minute, etc. He made an effort to be original, and unique is every one of his songs. So while he "manufactured" songs for kpop artists, he's really the only one who makes an effort to be different. What happened the minute Cube dropped him? BEAST and 4Minute became western grime fests, in a good way but still in a western way. You won't ever see Shinsadong producing something like Crazy. However, you will see him producing Up and Down. 

So lets summarize what we have here. Korean music as a whole is to close to western music. Why? Because the producers and composers are heavily influenced by western styles, and the same goes for the rappers. With the exception of a few, like Shinsadong and Hyuk Shin, for the most part the people making the music in Kpop want to be Western (or, in many cases, SMMMMMMMM, actually are). There is nothing wrong with influence, but Kpop, like JRock, needs to find it's style and voice that separates it from Western music to the point it becomes something "unique." In many ways it is, and there are people who are trying to do that, like GD and Big Bang. GD is to Kpop as Gackt is to JRock. They are influencing everyone, and will shape the landscape of the industry in the years to come. But until Koreans get off their western grime fest fetish, Kpop won't be different enough from western hip hop. It's changing. As much as I despise Zico as an individual, he has done A LOT to make Kpop unique and not western...except for that god awful solo. Rap Mon, Bang Yong Guk, Mino, and Bobby are doing the same already. What it comes down to is that Kpop needs self composition and less manufacturing. I hate to say it, but for once I really have to say Kpop's manufactured aspect is destroying it, horribly. It's why many people, since about 2012, have found Kpop to be a bit, "meh." Again, aside from the god level people like GD, Hyuk Shin, Shinsadong (who, after 2011, dropped off the face of korea, aside from T-ara), most people find music since then a bit iffy at best. 

So to conclude, Big Bang's album is going to revive the Korean music industry. 

Joking aside, if Koreans want Korean Hip Hop to gain respect they need to find a voice that's uniquely different from American hip hop, and to stop following the goddamn trends. Koreans do not have a booty, and shouldn't not try and have a booty. They need to start UTILIZING good composers like Hyuk Shin, and Shinsadong, or create their own composers like YG has with GD, and Bobby. SM is a big part of this problem, their entire business model is buying songs from western composers. The fact SHINee's next comeback is this does not help either...
http://jongdinohyun.tumblr.com/post/110152022776/hints-toward-shinees-first-full-group-comeback
Why did they ditch Hyuk Shin? He produced Growl and Dream Girl. The 2 top songs of 2013. Where. The. Fuck. Is. Hyuk. Shin. This is the goddamn problem. Sm sets the trends. They use some White American Guy, or some Swedish people and write korean lyrics for their songs. It's absolutely infuriating. Instead of using, ya know, KOREANS. STOP DOING THIS SHIT. It's the Kpop side of the Korean music problem. The other side is the KHip Hop side of things, with a bunch of fuck boy Koreans who either went to High School, or Uni in America and went back to Korea to become rappers. 

I'm done here. You get the point. Korean's need to find their own identity and stop appropriating others to the extreme they do, to do that they need to WRITE THEIR OWN GODDAMN MUSIC, AKA, KOREAN MUSIC WRITTEN BY KOREANS, instead of outsourcing their compositions. It's fine to be influenced, JRock was influenced by American rock. specifically glam rock, but artists like Gackt gave it a unique voice. That's what needs to happen in Korea. 

[camelliabloom]

Can you put a TL;DR at the end for those of us who can't read 20 paragraphs

[Giffica]

Can you put a TL;DR at the end for those of us who can't read 20 paragraphs

No, because I don't care if you read it, or not. I get if it's long. That's what I'm known for. I won't be butt hurt if you don't read it. Normally my TL;DR is just that "Don't read if it's too long for your low attention span."

[Jeffrey Jung]

TL;DR don't mistake cultural adaptation and cultural appropriation because they are two different things

[Irrelephant]

heyyy you the dude who did a break down of doom dada.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like to take a step back and question why this has become a conflict just now? Yeah, OG Maco didn't seem all that excited, but Kid Ash has always been this way. Always. He didn't intend to spread hip hop to the Korean masses on a pretentious steed. 

 

I have read your post in its entirety but it's just addressing Kpop more than anything. We're talking about the K urban, and to an extent J urban scene. Not every country can make a name for itself in the global subcultures that they house. Some people just want to listen to a genre that appeals to them in their own language, and there are artists who supply just that and no more. Don't get me wrong, there are people who in fact do spread their own colors into the genre, but they didn't strike luck like itchyma. What are you gonna do?

 

Kid Ash isn't some flip flop like, as per OG's comparison, Miley or Iggy. Afaik, this really is a part of who he is and what he likes. Same for most if not all of the features in that vid. Maybe it doesn't seem that inventive, but when I take a glance at Kpop it doesn't seem like something to go crazy about.

[Temptastic VII]

Not bad Gyo. I'm not really going to talk about It G Ma and U guessed it but here you are.

 

I think a lot of people who talk about cultural appropriation without really analysing it past "it's offensive" are probably holding themselves back from exploring a lot of the good things that lie underneath a very (especially in Korea) constructed front. While I don't particularly enjoy the double standard of K-Hip Hop artists using a lot of black culture as inspiration and then turning around and being racist as fuck, it's weird to also note that this is probably the beginning of progression to a more tolerant and even accepting society. I think we all hope that the ingrained racism and these racist comments will cease. 

I don't think it's disrespectful to take inspiration. To take it and invert it into something negative is not helping the progression of relations. Which is why it's so odd that someone like Zico would use and try to improve a musical genre that has clear roots in African American culture and wear a confederate flag at the same time. Let's just hope he has more sense next time.

Also plagiarism is fucked.

 

On another note, It's really interesting to watch so many fans talk about kpop as if it were unaffected by Western pop and apart and somehow superior to Western pop purely because they put a "K" in front of the genre. It's so blatantly obvious how interconnected Korean Pop is with American pop and how much they seem to idolize a lot of the culture. I don't necessarily find it to be to the detriment of the songs either. I think I'd like to see more progression of developing a Korean sound (which doesn't have to be trot) would be a really interesting pursuit and I'd love to see what kind of music comes out of it. Especially being a rather big fan of Shinsadong's compositions I'd love to see the Korean music industry travel this way. But a lot of that is personal preference. It would have been interesting to see the direction that Korean music would have taken without the invention of internet and the closeness all our cultures now have. 

[Giffica]

TL;DR don't mistake cultural adaptation and cultural appropriation because they are two different things

Ehhh sort of. I mean they are different, but that's the history of art. Sure, they didn't take movements entirely, but Baroque became what it was because everyone just copied the style of everyone else. In most cases exactly the same, just a lot of fucking jesus. The thing with art is that in the 1000 similar pieces, you will find 1 golden turd that will shine above the rest. It's the same with music. Albeit the ratio is a bit better, more like 1:100. 

 

The thing here is that the ADAPTATION part is being criticized. The american hip hop community rejects the korean because it's an ADAPTATION, not because it's an appropriation. 

[Jimin's GF]

I read it all. I still have a question. Is it possible to make music that will not be considered at least influenced by Western music? And how can you tell when a music is Korean, like, when you say that T-ara, 4 Minutes for example had great songs when they were written by Korean people.

Do you think Kpop should be more influenced by Trot music? It's Korea's traditional culture, and that's the only kind of music that comes to my mind that Korea has that is not influenced by Western music.

 

 

I think that cultural appropriation (which I think isn't really a thing) is inevitable though. You can't help it. The world is all connected, even if it's not voluntary, you'll be influenced by things that are not necessarily in your culture, at least unconsciously.

[Temptastic VII]

 

Ehhh sort of. I mean they are different, but that's the history of art. Sure, they didn't take movements entirely, but Baroque became what it was because everyone just copied the style of everyone else. In most cases exactly the same, just a lot of fucking jesus. The thing with art is that in the 1000 similar pieces, you will find 1 golden turd that will shine above the rest. It's the same with music. Albeit the ratio is a bit better, more like 1:100.

 

The thing here is that the ADAPTATION part is being criticized. The american hip hop community rejects the korean because it's an ADAPTATION, not because it's an appropriation.

 

Also because it seems like Asians in Hip Hop will currently not be taken seriously.

 

Not that it can be exactly related but Gangnam Style, as it's been said before, only really got famous because it was a combination of catchy song + unthreatening asian man doing stupid shit in the music video.

 

 

I read it all. I still have a question. Is it possible to make music that will not be considered at least influenced by Western music? And how can you tell when a music is Korean, like, when you say that T-ara, 4 Minutes for example had great songs when they were written by Korean people.

Do you think Kpop should be more influenced by Trot music? It's Korea's traditional culture, and that's the only kind of music that comes to my mind that Korea has that is not influenced by Western music.

 

 

I think that cultural appropriation (which I think isn't really a thing) is inevitable though. You can't help it. The world is all connected, even if it's not voluntary, you'll be influenced by things that are not necessarily in your culture, at least unconsciously.

 

I think that last sentence is a really good point. A lot of cultural appropriation is inevitable.

[SchoolNote]

This is kinda off topic but I'm shocked no one has made a thread about Kylie Jenner's dreads. I can already see the madness that would possibly ensue.

[Giffica]

heyyy you the dude who did a break down of doom dada.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd like to take a step back and question why this has become a conflict just now? Yeah, OG Maco didn't seem all that excited, but Kid Ash has always been this way. Always. He didn't intend to spread hip hop to the Korean masses on a pretentious steed. 

 

I have read your post in its entirety but it's just addressing Kpop more than anything. We're talking about the K urban, and to an extent J urban scene. Not every country can make a name for itself in the global subcultures that they house. Some people just want to listen to a genre that appeals to them in their own language, and there are artists who supply just that and no more. Don't get me wrong, there are people who in fact do spread their own colors into the genre, but they didn't strike luck like itchyma. What are you gonna do?

 

Kid Ash isn't some flip flop like, as per OG's comparison, Miley or Iggy. Afaik, this really is a part of who he is and what he likes. Same for most if not all of the features in that vid. Maybe it doesn't seem that inventive, but when I take a glance at Kpop it doesn't seem like something to go crazy about.

Oh I absolutely agree, I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm just outlining the problem that American hip hop people have with hip hop in ANY language. It's a cultural identity, more than anything. A defining communal factor that gives them purpose. 

 

I extended this to Kpop as a whole because I felt it relevant to explain the reason why a lot of Kpop has gone a bit down stream, aside for a few golden turds. I don't think Kpop is inventive on the whole. You have your GD's, but mostly the rest are copy cats of either western shit, or GD himself (Zico, Bang Yong Guk, Rap Mon)

Also yes, i'm that doom dada dude. 

 

 

Not bad Gyo. I'm not really going to talk about It G Ma and U guessed it but here you are.

 

I think a lot of people who talk about cultural appropriation without really analyzing it past "it's offensive" are probably holding themselves back from exploring a lot of the good things that lie underneath a very (especially in Korea) constructed front. While I don't particularly enjoy the double standard of K-Hip Hop artists using a lot of black culture as inspiration and then turning around and being racist as fuck, it's weird to also note that this is probably the beginning of progression to a more tolerant and even accepting society. I think we all hope that the ingrained racism and these racist comments will cease. 

I don't think it's disrespectful to take inspiration. To take it and invert it into something negative is not helping the progression of relations. Which is why it's so odd that someone like Zico would use and try to improve a musical genre that has clear roots in African American culture and wear a confederate flag at the same time. Let's just hope he has more sense next time.

Also plagiarism is fucked.

 

On another note, It's really interesting to watch so many fans talk about kpop as if it were unaffected by Western pop and apart and somehow superior to Western pop purely because they put a "K" in front of the genre. It's so blatantly obvious how interconnected Korean Pop is with American pop and how much they seem to idolize a lot of the culture. I don't necessarily find it to be to the detriment of the songs either. I think I'd like to see more progression of developing a Korean sound (which doesn't have to be trot) would be a really interesting pursuit and I'd love to see what kind of music comes out of it. Especially being a rather big fan of Shinsadong's compositions I'd love to see the Korean music industry travel this way. But a lot of that is personal preference. It would have been interesting to see the direction that Korean music would have taken without the invention of internet and the closeness all our cultures now have. 

I think part of the problem with Kpop's cultural identity lies in the fact they are copying the wrong things from each other. What I mean is related to you point on what would happen without the internet. JRock developed that way because one guy was king of the pile and everyone was like "OH MY GODU GACKTO SENPAI SAMA I RUV YU." They copied HIM. Gackt. Gackt became Japan. GD hasn't had that same effect that Gackt had, and he's the closest thing to him that Korea has. This is a two fold problem. 

 

The first comes from the reality the Korean music industry was built off nothing. Japan has the 2nd largest music industry in the world, leaving room for innovation and profit. In the korean, at least the early stages, it was difficult to do that and have originality, as not following the trend meant you died. Especially a country like korea that DOES NOT embrace individuality in any sense. Culturally Kpop is actually quite Korean in the manufactured aspect, as that's Korean culture as a whole, manufactured. 

 

The second problem comes from what Kpop artists copy. Few things to note. Conceptual comebacks (Backstreet boys, NSync didn't REALLY do this, MV's sort of had a theme, but Korean's took it to an extreme.) So conceptual comebacks are a staple of korean comebacks, while they ARE NOT in western music. That's a big thing people miss. "Groups" is another big thing. Groups and Solo ballads. That's part of Korea's identity as well. The west doesn't fit that trend in the slightest, evidenced by the Miley, Katy, and Gaga's of the west. Dance heavy comebacks is another thing the west doesn't have. That's part of the kpop identity and one of the reasons meany of us, and I know you specifically, really enjoy about Kpop. Another one is Variety. The "overall" idol lifestyle is what interests many of us. That's part of kpop's unique identity (japan does it a bit to, but it's asian in general). So what are we missing? Music. The music itself, the core part of it, is the one thing that lacks a lot of cultural identity a lot of the time. I think that's a huge part of the problem. New listeners don't see the rest, they see the music first, the rest second, so it appears manufactured and a bit copied because well, the part they are seeing is, a lot of the time. Not always, but a lot. 

[Giffica]

I read it all. I still have a question. Is it possible to make music that will not be considered at least influenced by Western music? And how can you tell when a music is Korean, like, when you say that T-ara, 4 Minutes for example had great songs when they were written by Korean people.

Do you think Kpop should be more influenced by Trot music? It's Korea's traditional culture, and that's the only kind of music that comes to my mind that Korea has that is not influenced by Western music.

 

 

I think that cultural appropriation (which I think isn't really a thing) is inevitable though. You can't help it. The world is all connected, even if it's not voluntary, you'll be influenced by things that are not necessarily in your culture, at least unconsciously.

Fuck trot and fuck what it stands for. Culture isn't "old." Koreans have the habit of sticking to the old, rather than creating the new. The old is safe, the new is uncharted. Abracadabra was god level because it was edgy beyond belief, and it was new to Korea. It is in this way, the invention of the new, that a totally new and unique culture forms. In essence, the Korean "ballad-y emotional song" is part of their musical identity. Haru Haru, Lies, Lonely, Empty. Having a unique element is what makes it different from western influence. 

 

Don't get me wrong here, it is IMPOSSIBLE to not be influenced by the west, the same way America was influenced by the Beatles entirely, but I firmly believe that the definition of creativity is pulling influence from so many things until it becomes it's own, unqiue, thing. 

[Temptastic VII]

 So what are we missing? Music. The music itself, the core part of it, is the one thing that lacks a lot of cultural identity a lot of the time. I think that's a huge part of the problem. New listeners don't see the rest, they see the music first, the rest second, so it appears manufactured and a bit copied because well, the part they are seeing is, a lot of the time. Not always, but a lot. 

 

Yeah, so much. I think everything else is fascinating and it's own sense of identity, I was mostly writing that with Music and fashion in mind. I kind of enjoy the identity that the Kpop music has and that's part of it's pull for me. But like you said as well. I do want to hear more Korean music written for Koreans, that isn't Busker Busker tbh.

But I'm worried it may start dipping more into the shitty imitation eurotrash reject sounding songs cough brave brothers cough. I want them write decent pop for Korea.

 

This is kinda off topic but I'm shocked no one has made a thread about Kylie Jenner's dreads. I can already see the madness that would possibly ensue.

 

Ew, what? 

[Giffica]

Yeah, so much. I think everything else is fascinating and it's own sense of identity, I was mostly writing that with Music and fashion in mind. I kind of enjoy the identity that the Kpop music has and that's part of it's pull for me. But like you said as well. I do want to hear more Korean music written for Koreans, that isn't Busker Busker tbh.

But I'm worried it may start dipping more into the shitty imitation eurotrash reject sounding songs cough brave brothers cough. I want them write decent pop for Korea.

 

 

Ew, what? 

Brave Bros isn't Korean as far as I'm concerned. It's just cultural appropriation, and that's EXACTLY his problem. Well that and he sucks and reuses his own stuff. XD

 

But yeh, Koreans need to write culturally relevant music FOR KOREA. Like the big man shinsa. 

[SchoolNote]

Yeah, so much. I think everything else is fascinating and it's own sense of identity, I was mostly writing that with Music and fashion in mind. I kind of enjoy the identity that the Kpop music has and that's part of it's pull for me. But like you said as well. I do want to hear more Korean music written for Koreans, that isn't Busker Busker tbh.

But I'm worried it may start dipping more into the shitty imitation eurotrash reject sounding songs cough brave brothers cough. I want them write decent pop for Korea.

 

 

Ew, what?

I was confused myself lol. She has managed to piss off a ton of people by having them.

[blueprint]

I don't know. I always wondered what the line between inspiration and appropriation crosses. How can you tell if something is too much like western music that it isn't unique anymore? For a lot of people, GD/bigbang's music isn't at all "different." Songs like Tonight, and Fantastic Baby and IATB sound very edm/hh/western. What is it about those songs that differentiate it from 4minute's crazy?

 

I feel that hiphop has such a sensitive and highly political, social, and civil rights oriented root that for a lot of americans, it is offensive when you see artists utilize/get inspired by that genre and not really know anything about it. They only know the surface of it (bootys and girlls.) I feel like a lot of the mindsets of people aren't necessarily "if you aren't black," but its "if you don't come from that lifestyle, respect it, or acknowledge it."

 

Generally when I hear about cultural appropriation it has more to do with the aesthetics of it. I wonder what your take on it is, especially on videos such as Zico's Tough Cookie, CL's TBH, GD's OOAK, BB's Badboyy perf and etc.

[Temptastic VII]

I was confused myself lol. She has managed to piss off a ton of people by having them.

 

Oh. No I just think dreads are not great for hair. I don't have any problem with them apart from they are gross and smell LOL

 

Although this photo definitely says "I'm aiming for attention to be focused directly towards my personality and intellect."

 

 

[SchoolNote]

Oh. No I just think dreads are not great for hair. I don't have any problem with them apart from they are gross and smell LOL

 

Although this photo definitely says "I'm aiming for attention to be focused directly towards my personality and intellect."

 

 

Well if they're maintained reguarly I don't think they smell. Don't quote me on this as I don't know anyone with dreads or have smelled the dreads of another person before lol.

 

Tbh I was so focused on her boobs it took me a while to realize that she had dreads. Dat push-up is Godsent.

[Giffica]

I don't know. I always wondered what the line between inspiration and appropriation crosses. How can you tell if something is too much like western music that it isn't unique anymore? For a lot of people, GD/bigbang's music isn't at all "different." Songs like Tonight, and Fantastic Baby and IATB sound very edm/hh/western. What is it about those songs that differentiate it from 4minute's crazy?

 

I feel that hiphop has such a sensitive and highly political, social, and civil rights oriented root that for a lot of americans, it is offensive when you see artists utilize/get inspired by that genre and not really know anything about it. They only know the surface of it (bootys and girlls.) I feel like a lot of the mindsets of people aren't necessarily "if you aren't black," but its "if you don't come from that lifestyle, respect it, or acknowledge it."

 

Generally when I hear about cultural appropriation it has more to do with the aesthetics of it. I wonder what your take on it is, especially on videos such as Zico's Tough Cookie, CL's TBH, GD's OOAK, BB's Badboyy perf and etc.

There is zero dance EDM in anything big bang had done until Good Boy. And lets not even touch on good boy, it deserves an entire thread and like 5 essays devoted to ripping it apart. 

 

Name a western song that is similar to Fantastic Baby. 4minutes crazy, albeit fucking SLAYS MY ANUS, bae jiyoon went IN, rips chorus from teach me how to dougie, alternating female rap vocals after a high vocal range singer of all the current western releases, chorus that has a minimalistic drop. There are many cliche western elements in it. 

 

Tough Cookie is abysmal garbage I refuse to recognize it. Zico did amazing with Her, and then just threw that all away with Tup Cookee. 

 

CL's TBH? You mean MTBD and Gizibae? Both were horrible western grime fest, but I love western grime fests. Don't mistake my intention of illuminating the issue of why many westerners dont respect Kpop for the fact that I LOVE it for what it is. I LOVE western Kpop styles, like MTBD, OOAK, and Crazy. All are essentially top50 dance tracks for me. 

 

Bad Boy? Really? Bad Boy was so uniquely Korean it's unbelievable. Maybe style wise it wasn't, but song wise it missed sappy korean love bullshit with western influences perfectly. It was a brilliant blend of two significant cultural identities that GD always has done well. 

[blueprint]

There is zero dance EDM in anything big bang had done until Good Boy. And lets not even touch on good boy, it deserves an entire thread and like 5 essays devoted to ripping it apart. 

 

Name a western song that is similar to Fantastic Baby. 4minutes crazy, albeit fucking SLAYS MY ANUS, bae jiyoon went IN, rips chorus from teach me how to dougie, alternating female rap vocals after a high vocal range singer of all the current western releases, chorus that has a minimalistic drop. There are many cliche western elements in it. 

 

Tough Cookie is abysmal garbage I refuse to recognize it. Zico did amazing with Her, and then just threw that all away with Tup Cookee. 

 

CL's TBH? You mean MTBD and Gizibae? Both were horrible western grime fest, but I love western grime fests. Don't mistake my intention of illuminating the issue of why many westerners dont respect Kpop for the fact that I LOVE it for what it is. I LOVE western Kpop styles, like MTBD, OOAK, and Crazy. All are essentially top50 dance tracks for me. 

 

Bad Boy? Really? Bad Boy was so uniquely Korean it's unbelievable. Maybe style wise it wasn't, but song wise it missed sappy korean love bullshit with western influences perfectly. It was a brilliant blend of two significant cultural identities that GD always has done well. 

I am not saying those were copies of western songs. I actually agree with you that they sit in their own shelf along other hh/electro styled music. I am saying that it is hard for me to differentiate the "kpop" unique aspect of it. I can individually tell that FB, or Tonight is essentially their own song. I can't think of any song that sounds like direct copies of it besides GB as you mentioned. But they are still in the same genre of what I hear in western music. I mean I know you can't INVENT your own genre but all I am saying is that to the average kpop and american music listener it is hard to pick out the nuances that you seem to be able to identify. Personally it is hard for me to tell. I am not a music connoisseur, but as someone who likes to casually listen to music, its hard to pick out.

 

LOL i might have misunderstood your main point of your OP probably. I was more focused on the genre of it. I kind of see now that you are talking about songs that sound like direct ripoffs vs songs that are still within that genre but is different enough to be considered their own song and not just a copy cat of a western song. though I do want to point out that for a lot of people, that maybe difficult to differentiate between the two.

[Giffica]

I am not saying those were copies of western songs. I actually agree with you that they sit in their own shelf along other hh/electro styled music. I am saying that it is hard for me to differentiate the "kpop" unique aspect of it. I can individually tell that FB, or Tonight is essentially their own song. I can't think of any song that sounds like direct copies of it besides GB as you mentioned. But they are still in the same genre of what I hear in western music. I mean I know you can't INVENT your own genre but all I am saying is that to the average kpop and american music listener it is hard to pick out the nuances that you seem to be able to identify. Personally it is hard for me to tell. I am not a music connoisseur, but as someone who likes to casually listen to music, its hard to pick out.

 

LOL i might have misunderstood your main point of your OP probably. I was more focused on the genre of it. I kind of see now that you are talking about songs that sound like direct ripoffs vs songs that are still within that genre but is different enough to be considered their own song and not just a copy cat of a western song. though I do want to point out that for a lot of people, that maybe difficult to differentiate between the two.

Nah I wasn't necessarily talking about either of those, although they are what sparked my rant and discussion of it in the first place. 

 

I think what I'm trying to point out is that the flaw with Korean music right now is that everyone is TRYING to be western, or at least uses western composers and style rather than simply takes influence from them. Aside from YG, this is mostly true. Top summarized it the best in this interview:

 

10Asia: That aspect shows up a lot in your work. Your solo “Doom Dada†last November was also like that. While watching it, I thought, “Choi Seunghyun makes music while keeping in mind that these images will be visualized.â€

Choi Seunghyun: That’s right. I always think of the images while making music. Music and images always come together.

10Asia: If so, then that means you shouldn’t just listen to your song, but also watch it visually.

Choi Seunghyun: I think that’s the only way you have to do it in this era. I imagine in the future it’ll be even more so. I think an era will come where music is unconditionally a video artwork. Because good melodies and chords came out now, I think it would be hard to make refined music if people keep listening to things non-committally.

10Asia: In ‘Doom Dada,’ the lyrics “I’m a 21st century extraordinary Korean, a Rap Basquiat holding the mic†appear. Do you like Basquiat?

Choi Seunghyun: The reason I referenced Basquiat was because at the time that I made ‘Doom Dada,’ I thought to make music that people wouldn’t really enjoy listening to. That’s because at the time – and if I said it wasn’t the case now as well, I’d be lying – I thought that everything was packaged and presented the same, and if something was popular then our country’s music industry would copy it in droves. When I saw this, I didn’t want to get involved with it. I thought it was pathetic. I thought it really was an aberration. That’s why I hoped to take a child raised in that freakish environment and express something about that freakish situation. More than that, I wanted to scrawl something roughly, like Basquiat’s graffiti.

10Asia: Amazing metaphor. But aren’t celebrities, particularly idol groups, in the position where they have to make trends?

Choi Seunghyun: Honestly, I’ve never even once thought that the BIGBANG team, or I myself, are idols. I just think that because it’s an era where boybands promote actively, we’re tied together. Perhaps if I thought of myself as an idol, my personal color in the BIGBANG team, or the BIGBANG team’s disposition, wouldn’t come out well.

10Asia: You say you wanted to scrawl something roughly, but it seems like you didn’t think, “now, I want to change the music industry.†Isn’t it more that you think, “I’ll go my own path�

Choi Seunghyun: If I speak really bluntly and honestly, ‘Doom Dada’ was a song that abstractly expressed the reason that I dislike doing music. At the time, I thought it was an aberration that there was nobody attempting something new.

 

 

 

That is really my point. What TOP is pointing out is that "trends" are becoming a thing too much, rather than creating fresh sounding music. That's what i'm really trying to get at, but it's difficult to articulate such a complicated subject. 

[blueprint]

 

Nah I wasn't necessarily talking about either of those, although they are what sparked my rant and discussion of it in the first place. 

 

I think what I'm trying to point out is that the flaw with Korean music right now is that everyone is TRYING to be western, or at least uses western composers and style rather than simply takes influence from them. Aside from YG, this is mostly true. Top summarized it the best in this interview:

 

10Asia: That aspect shows up a lot in your work. Your solo “Doom Dada†last November was also like that. While watching it, I thought, “Choi Seunghyun makes music while keeping in mind that these images will be visualized.â€

Choi Seunghyun: That’s right. I always think of the images while making music. Music and images always come together.

10Asia: If so, then that means you shouldn’t just listen to your song, but also watch it visually.

Choi Seunghyun: I think that’s the only way you have to do it in this era. I imagine in the future it’ll be even more so. I think an era will come where music is unconditionally a video artwork. Because good melodies and chords came out now, I think it would be hard to make refined music if people keep listening to things non-committally.

10Asia: In ‘Doom Dada,’ the lyrics “I’m a 21st century extraordinary Korean, a Rap Basquiat holding the mic†appear. Do you like Basquiat?

Choi Seunghyun: The reason I referenced Basquiat was because at the time that I made ‘Doom Dada,’ I thought to make music that people wouldn’t really enjoy listening to. That’s because at the time – and if I said it wasn’t the case now as well, I’d be lying – I thought that everything was packaged and presented the same, and if something was popular then our country’s music industry would copy it in droves. When I saw this, I didn’t want to get involved with it. I thought it was pathetic. I thought it really was an aberration. That’s why I hoped to take a child raised in that freakish environment and express something about that freakish situation. More than that, I wanted to scrawl something roughly, like Basquiat’s graffiti.

10Asia: Amazing metaphor. But aren’t celebrities, particularly idol groups, in the position where they have to make trends?

Choi Seunghyun: Honestly, I’ve never even once thought that the BIGBANG team, or I myself, are idols. I just think that because it’s an era where boybands promote actively, we’re tied together. Perhaps if I thought of myself as an idol, my personal color in the BIGBANG team, or the BIGBANG team’s disposition, wouldn’t come out well.

10Asia: You say you wanted to scrawl something roughly, but it seems like you didn’t think, “now, I want to change the music industry.†Isn’t it more that you think, “I’ll go my own path�

Choi Seunghyun: If I speak really bluntly and honestly, ‘Doom Dada’ was a song that abstractly expressed the reason that I dislike doing music. At the time, I thought it was an aberration that there was nobody attempting something new.

 

 

 

That is really my point. What TOP is pointing out is that "trends" are becoming a thing too much, rather than creating fresh sounding music. That's what i'm really trying to get at, but it's difficult to articulate such a complicated subject. 

 

Oh I see. I totally get what you mean now. I feel like the key to that is obviously for the artists to start making the music themselves or have at least some input in it. They should be more focused on expressing their own messages/themselves through their music and less on trying to do whats popular now, or trendy. And in some situations you can do both, if you execute it well.

 

I really like that top interview btw.

[Giffica]

Oh I see. I totally get what you mean now. I feel like the key to that is obviously for the artists to start making the music themselves or have at least some input in it. They should be more focused on expressing their own messages/themselves through their music and less on trying to do whats popular now, or trendy. And in some situations you can do both, if you execute it well.

 

I really like that top interview btw.

yeh I really love that top interview myself. He's amazing xD

 

But yeh essentially creating their own music is important. But even within that you have gds Heartbreakers fiasco. I think it's important for artists to not only create their own music, but also for producers to stop following foreign trends. Rap mon and bang Yong guk exist because gd was a trend. Sadly. They are both talented but it's just the reality. Zico tries to hard to be like gd.

 

Out of all the companies yg is the best at mot following trends. They strive to create new music and concepts. Evidenced by 2ne1s debut and people like akdong. Akdongs sound isn't western at all and that's part of why koreans eat that shit up like people eat up qrisus ass on this forum. Same goes for taeyangs eyes noes lips. They are very korean songs.

[iceman234]

 

This post started out as a reply to some comments and criticisms of the controversy of It G Ma copying U Guessed It, and evolved into something more. I hope you enjoy, and respond/criticize my points as I enjoy lengthy constructive discussion. 

 

Let me just start out with this, directly stealing an artists work is ridiculous. However, people are confusing that with Kpop "copying the west." They are two entirely different points, and should be addressed as such. 

 

The first is simply wrong. Don't steal an artists work. Ever. (Unless it's for some satirical purpose possibly, but eh) I leave this at that, as I have really said enough. It's wrong, it's plagiarism, it's gross. Don't do it. 

 

The second point, cultural appropriation isn't new in the slightest. The Romanesque movement of art was cultural appropriation of Roman art styles across europe. It was either an adaptation of the former stlye, or an evolution of those styles with nuanced additions thrown in. Many Kpop songs, especially YG, are heavily influenced by western hip hop, but that doesn't mean it's "copying" western hip hop anymore than France and England copied German born Romanticism. It's adaptive cultural appropriation of artistic styles, not a copy. In the same way the French artist's chose to paint/sculpt Napoleon rather than German figure heads, Kpop artists choose to use different influences and nuances that better fit their countries styles. It's more cross racial, as it's going from White/Black/Hispanic America to Asian Korea, but the French hated the Germans more than these groups of people hate each other today. The French felt the Germans were FAR more different than Whites/Blacks/Hispanics think Asians are. 

 

Just because I am the best has Hip Hop visuals with electronic hip hop sounds doesn't mean it's a copy of Western hip hop. Influenced? Absolutely, no denying that, but the reality is that it's a cultural adaptation. 

 

The issue is simple, no one in America complains the world wears Jeans. That's one of the MOST American things POSSIBLE. It is the essence OF American culture, and one of the original cultural identities of the American people. However, every other culture wears them, some in different ways, or styles. Some adapt their fashions based on Western fashions with clothes in general. However, music specifically has become some global nationalism that groups of people like to identify with based on race, or country. Which makes total sense, but those same people who complain HIP HOP IS BLACK (even within America this is an issue, as many Black people feel White/Hispanic people have no business making, or even listening to Hip Hop) are the very same people who don't care that the rest of the world wears Jeans, or that English is just a mix of Norse, Latin, Saxon/Germanic and French and really is a cultural rip off. 

 

Cultural identity is this weird sess pool of rejection and acceptance of the strangest simple things. Even in a country so globalized as the melting pot of America, "culture" (which isn't even a thing, what fucking eating German Hamburgers/Hot Dogs, Belgium Fries that we call French Fries cause our insensitivity is such that Belgium doesn't exist cause it used to be part of France, listening to hip hop music which has it's roots in african folk songs so it's not even American in the first fucking place, even the concept of soap is a French thing for the love of god. We use Armoires and drink Beer, the most European drink possible. (not to mention Vodka, Rum, and Whiskey). Nothing about this country is uniquely American in any way, shape or form. It's all cultural appropriation, the same way Korean's adapted American music for their own audience. The same way we adapted British music for an American audience and started using it as a political tool for Vietnam, and based one of our most dynamic periods (The 60's) on British Rock. The hypocrisy stems from an ignorance of the reality of culture in a global society.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that while "copying" is wrong, cultural appropriation is not. It's what America BUILT IT'S IDENTITY ON. I'm not saying America is the only country who dislikes it, Japan dislikes when the rest of Asia is influenced by their shit too, but the specific issue of Kpop music is that Kpop is a copy of Western, more specifically American, music. Is One Direction the British copying Back Street Boys and NSync? Of course not. So why are Korean rappers, who, for the most part, lived in America at some point (look towards the lord and gods of Korean hip hop, Tiger JK, Yoon Mi Rae, and Tablo, one of them BEING BLACK AND AMERICAN) criticized for their influence from American hip hop?

 

 

This problem seems to be unique to Hip Hop. I'm not sure why. The only possibility I can come up with is that Hip Hop has become the cultural equivalent to the British drinking Tea, or the Spanish seista. It's what ties an entire racial/ethnic group of people together, and differentiates them from the rest of society. Within America Hip Hop is the black definition of cultural and success. A vast, vast, VAST majority of successful African American's are either rappers, or sports players. There are many, many white and hispanic sports players, so sports it's not unique to them. Hip Hop, with the exception of Eminem, is unique to them. This is why Iggy arrived to such virulent hate, and backlash. She's moving in on "black culture." Not just music, but it's a cultural identity she tries to establish for herself that she does not fit in. That's the way Korea's hip hop scene is viewed, and it's lack of an attempt to remain true to the original doesn't help either. It's far enough different, but still closely the same that it seems like it's "wannabe."

 

That's part of the problem. Korean hip hop, sadly, has done little to differentiate itself in the same way JRock did. The roots of Korean hip hop stem from 90's style beats used by Epik High, mostly. Yes, there were people like Tasha, but they were exactly the same as well. "Old school" is what it's essentially referred to, and it's still American hip hop. Born Hater. This song is extremely important to execute my point. It's old school. It's not uniquely Korean. (Even conceptually, its western religious symbolism). It is by far one of my favorite songs ever, but I'm sad to say, it's not unique. Kpop has this quality to it as a whole, where "foreign" concepts are re-appropriated. Rum Pum Pum Pum with it's Indian influence, can't think of any others cause lel brain derp, but you guys aren't idiots, you get what I'm saying. 

 

The other part of the problem is that it's not trying to be different. 4minute's Crazy for the love of god, while it sounds AMAZING and EXACTLY my type of jam...it's doing nothing to not be Western. Hello Venus Wiggle Wiggle, again one of my JAMS, but it's so western it's a bit rediculous. Sonamoo's Deja Vu, again, jam AF, but also Western AF. The list goes on, and these are all extremely current. No one is really trying to be different, or unique. With one exception: GDragon. I'm not going to discuss this in depth here, but the reality of Big Bang and GDragon is that they are cultural icons not simply for their musical excellence, but because they adapted the western hip hop influence with korean concepts and styles. Haru Haru is one such example of a "Korean" song. Leaving Good Boy aside, cause FUCK YOU GDRAGON, GDragon tries EXTREMELY hard to be "unique." To his own detriment, but he's doing what is necessary for other Korean rappers and composers. However, the problem is that Korean rappers and composers exist in two forms. "Raised on american rap" types (Tablo, TJK, Swings, Dynamic Duo, Zico, list goes on) and white people writing music for Kpop groups. 

 

It comes back to the biggest criticism of Kpop as a whole. It's manufactured. While I have argued furiously to show it's not what it seems, and that self composition exists, as we all know, the vast majority of high profile "groups" (SNSD, Sistar, EXO) are actually produced by a bunch of white guys in collab with Koreans. That's PART of the issue. Kpop groups are doing western style songs because they are composed by westerners? Majority of f(x)'s album was made by some white people. Brave Brothers is the biggest offender here, and he does nothing to make it seem like Kpop has a unque quality to it. Perhaps the only example of a "Korean" composer, is Shinsadong. It's no wonder his era is considered a golden age of kpop, and produced some of the best music for T-ara, Beast, 4minute, etc. He made an effort to be original, and unique is every one of his songs. So while he "manufactured" songs for kpop artists, he's really the only one who makes an effort to be different. What happened the minute Cube dropped him? BEAST and 4Minute became western grime fests, in a good way but still in a western way. You won't ever see Shinsadong producing something like Crazy. However, you will see him producing Up and Down. 

 

So lets summarize what we have here. Korean music as a whole is to close to western music. Why? Because the producers and composers are heavily influenced by western styles, and the same goes for the rappers. With the exception of a few, like Shinsadong and Hyuk Shin, for the most part the people making the music in Kpop want to be Western (or, in many cases, SMMMMMMMM, actually are). There is nothing wrong with influence, but Kpop, like JRock, needs to find it's style and voice that separates it from Western music to the point it becomes something "unique." In many ways it is, and there are people who are trying to do that, like GD and Big Bang. GD is to Kpop as Gackt is to JRock. They are influencing everyone, and will shape the landscape of the industry in the years to come. But until Koreans get off their western grime fest fetish, Kpop won't be different enough from western hip hop. It's changing. As much as I despise Zico as an individual, he has done A LOT to make Kpop unique and not western...except for that god awful solo. Rap Mon, Bang Yong Guk, Mino, and Bobby are doing the same already. What it comes down to is that Kpop needs self composition and less manufacturing. I hate to say it, but for once I really have to say Kpop's manufactured aspect is destroying it, horribly. It's why many people, since about 2012, have found Kpop to be a bit, "meh." Again, aside from the god level people like GD, Hyuk Shin, Shinsadong (who, after 2011, dropped off the face of korea, aside from T-ara), most people find music since then a bit iffy at best. 

 

So to conclude, Big Bang's album is going to revive the Korean music industry. 

 

Joking aside, if Koreans want Korean Hip Hop to gain respect they need to find a voice that's uniquely different from American hip hop, and to stop following the goddamn trends. Koreans do not have a booty, and shouldn't not try and have a booty. They need to start UTILIZING good composers like Hyuk Shin, and Shinsadong, or create their own composers like YG has with GD, and Bobby. SM is a big part of this problem, their entire business model is buying songs from western composers. The fact SHINee's next comeback is this does not help either...

http://jongdinohyun.tumblr.com/post/110152022776/hints-toward-shinees-first-full-group-comeback

Why did they ditch Hyuk Shin? He produced Growl and Dream Girl. The 2 top songs of 2013. Where. The. Fuck. Is. Hyuk. Shin. This is the goddamn problem. Sm sets the trends. They use some White American Guy, or some Swedish people and write korean lyrics for their songs. It's absolutely infuriating. Instead of using, ya know, KOREANS. STOP DOING THIS SHIT. It's the Kpop side of the Korean music problem. The other side is the KHip Hop side of things, with a bunch of fuck boy Koreans who either went to High School, or Uni in America and went back to Korea to become rappers. 

 

I'm done here. You get the point. Korean's need to find their own identity and stop appropriating others to the extreme they do, to do that they need to WRITE THEIR OWN GODDAMN MUSIC, AKA, KOREAN MUSIC WRITTEN BY KOREANS, instead of outsourcing their compositions. It's fine to be influenced, JRock was influenced by American rock. specifically glam rock, but artists like Gackt gave it a unique voice. That's what needs to happen in Korea. 

 

WRITE THEIR OWN GODDAMN MUSIC, AKA, KOREAN MUSIC WRITTEN BY KOREANS- pure nationalist shit everyone is influenced by the other that it's hard to say what's purely korean, purely american etc. anymore