The Wage Gap, by Gender and Race

[tamar braxton]

[sane]

 

 

 

 

Decades later and people are still hung up on this stuff. Generations worth of opportunities have been lost for disadvantaged youths because of people being preoccupied with myths and factoids and playing the blame game instead of actually doing something to help the issue. Affirmative action clearly hasn't worked, and yet people call for more affirmative action. Slapping a band-aid on things isn't going to do anything to help the primary education crisis that needs to be addressed.

 

The opportunities are there for everybody later in life. The problem is with early education.

[tamar braxton]

Decades later and people are still hung up on this stuff. Generations worth of opportunities have been lost for disadvantaged youths because of people being preoccupied with myths and factoids and playing the blame game instead of actually doing something to help the issue. Affirmative action clearly hasn't worked, and yet people call for more affirmative action. Slapping a band-aid on things isn't going to do anything to help the primary education crisis that needs to be addressed.

 

The opportunities are there for everybody later in life. The problem is with early education.

 

Are you a white man?

[SATANIC SLUT]

smh @ society

[sane]

Are you a white man?

 

Does whether you actually consider what I have to say hinge solely upon my race and sex? 

[youchewflop]

:(

[Ulmicola]

Are you a white man?

 

I am not HanryuFan's biggest fan, but even if he was a white man, he's shockingly right. If black people had the same education of white people, they could be as successful as white people in the workplace. Sadly, black people don't get the same education of white people; if you want to put the blame on something, put it on education and the reasons why black people can't get a decent education when, as human beings, they should.

[tamar braxton]

 

Decades later and people are still hung up on this stuff.

 

 

Affirmative action clearly hasn't worked, and yet people call for more affirmative action

 

 

 

[h0neanias]

 

 

 

Yes, but why? That's what's important, and that's what dictates a solution.

[tamar braxton]

Yes, but why? That's what's important, and that's what dictates a solution.

 

 

Why do people who complain about how Affirmative Action is adversely affecting the quality of a university’s student body,do not do the same about how legacy policies adversely affect the quality of the student body? Obviously it’s a racial thing if they think it’s okay for dumb white rich kids to being going to Harvard but not perceived “dumb minorities."

[h0neanias]

Why do people who complain about how Affirmative Action is adversely affecting the quality of a university’s student body,do not do the same about how legacy policies adversely affect the quality of the student body? Obviously it’s a racial thing if they think it’s okay for dumb white rich kids to being going to Harvard but not perceived “dumb minorities."

 

Oh, with this all I fully agree, but the solution to me would seem to be trying to eliminate all sorts of undeserved access -- probably by making sure the access is deserved. Clearly the solution to the UoAustin problem is not ordering a fixed percentage of Latinos. That is not to say there is no racial bias at the university itself, but that must be provable, and plain enrollment statistics prove nothing by themselves.

 

 

The opportunities are there for everybody later in life. The problem is with early education.

 

Are there? If it turns out there is persistent discrimination in the workplace as well, those opportunities dissolve. As it is now, the opportunities aren't there even for white male university graduates, let alone minorities.

[tamar braxton]

Oh, with this all I fully agree, but the solution to me would seem to be trying to eliminate all sorts of undeserved access -- probably by making sure the access is deserved. Clearly the solution to the UoAustin problem is not ordering a fixed percentage of Latinos. That is not to say there is no racial bias at the university itself, but that must be provable, and plain enrollment statistics prove nothing by themselves.

 

 

 

Are there? If it turns out there is persistent discrimination in the workplace as well, those opportunities dissolve. As it is now, the opportunities aren't there even for white male university graduates, let alone minorities.

 

While people of color, individually and as groups, have been helped by affirmative action in the subsequent years, data and studies suggest women — white women in particular — have benefited disproportionately.

 

 

White people in America has practiced affirmative action (or preferential treatment for white people) for 400 years. And now the Federally-mandated form of affirmative action, which was originally designed to level the playing field for people of color continues to benefit white people, only this time its the women. The same women who are mothers, daughters, wives and girlfriends of white males. So who do you think will ultimately benefit from the LGBT movement? You guessed it - gay white people, or the sexual partners of other white people.

 

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

 

[nikki250]

Can we not attack Affirmative action? Affirmative Action is one of the reasons that gap has gotten smaller over the decades, including for white women (who benefit the most from affirmative action policies).

 

A major problem with the US education system is that it's funded with property taxes. Minorities live disproportionately in low income neighborhoods where property taxes are lower, therefore there is less money to fund these schools. Then we would have to ask ourselves "why do certain minorities live disproportionately in low income neighborhoods?" Then we'd have to get into the discriminatory housing practices that have kept blacks/latinos out of "white" neighborhoods to this day. And the banking industry disproportionately targeting low income and minority families for toxic loans which led to the recent financial crisis (the media only started caring when it got to wealthy white families). And going all the way back to the Homestead Act of 1862, the FHA Home Loan Program that completely excluded minorities for years while whites got handouts for houses.

 

Whites (really white men) have gotten special treatment for hundreds of years in this country and now want to act upset because a couple minorities with lower test scores got into a university (usually ignoring the legacies, students with rich parents, and even other whites with lower test scores). I don't feel bad if they can't make it work in a system that was built by white men and for white men.

[h0neanias]

While people of color, individually and as groups, have been helped by affirmative action in the subsequent years, data and studies suggest women — white women in particular — have benefited disproportionately.

 

 

White people in America has practiced affirmative action (or preferential treatment for white people) for 400 years. And now the Federally-mandated form of affirmative action, which was originally designed to level the playing field for people of color continues to benefit white people, only this time its the women. The same women who are mothers, daughters, wives and girlfriends of white males. So who do you think will ultimately benefit from the LGBT movement? You guessed it - gay white people, or the sexual partners of other white people.

 

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

 

That all seems to suggest that affirmative action is bad. Going back to education, it should be possible to state why someone didn't get into university. My point is that the reasons may be simple, but they may also be very complex -- and we have to know. Affirmative action by itself is akin to doctoring the statistics to cover up real structural problems that need tackling...

 

A major problem with the US education system is that it's funded with property taxes. Minorities live disproportionately in low income neighborhoods where property taxes are lower, therefore there is less money to fund these schools. Then we would have to ask ourselves "why do certain minorities live disproportionately in low income neighborhoods?" Then we'd have to get into the discriminatory housing practices that have kept blacks/latinos out of "white" neighborhoods to this day. And the banking industry disproportionately targeting low income and minority families for toxic loans which led to the recent financial crisis (the media only started caring when it got to wealthy white families). And going all the way back to the Homestead Act of 1862, the FHA Home Loan Program that completely excluded minorities for years while whites got handouts for houses.

 

...like these, for example. This time I happen to agree with Hanryu that it's easier to slap a band-aid on it and pretend we have uplifted the poor savages instead of confronting ourselves the difficult way.

[sane]

 

 

 

...Did you intend to just prove my point for me? 'Cause you did.

 

 

Affirmative action has consistently been shown to be ineffective at actually solving the problem, despite what you people are being led to think. Also, the drop in admissions after the discontinuation of affirmative action are primarily students who would not get in on their merit alone, meaning they shouldn't be going to that school because they're just not qualified. The number of minority enrollments tends to decrease quite a bit immediately following the cessation of affirmative action, and then picks back up again over the next few years as qualified students begin enrolling more.

A large portion of students who get into their first choice college based on affirmative action alone end up being overwhelmed and fail to do well. This not only puts them into debt and sets them back in their career and life (as well as doing a number on their confidence), but it also takes away spots at that college from qualified students. It's a lose-lose situation all around, with a few lucky qualified flukes getting through okay.

That's what happens when you throw merit out the window; you can ruin people's lives. 

 

The solution isn't to force more under-qualified students into colleges. The solution is to get good education to more impoverished children early on, which will then generate more qualified and motivated students and workers later on down the line, and end the cycle of poverty that people get stuck in due to lack of adequate early education. This has been a classist issue for a while now, but people still assume it's a racist issue because historically racial minorities have made up a disproportionately high percentage of people living in poverty in the US (even though the US is actually one of the least racist countries in the world nowadays). When we choose to say enough is enough and fight poverty and classism as a whole, then we will see more diversity higher up occur naturally.

 

 

That's why it's a band-aid fix. It covers up the real problem (classism and lack of proper education for impoverished youngsters), and hopes it'll just fix itself.

It's not going to fix itself, and the gap between the rich and the poor is just going to keep widening until the US becomes a damn 3rd world country if we don't stop being distracted by all of these things unnecessary things.

 

 

(And no, I'm not saying that racism is 100% gone in the US. It's definitely still present here and there, but it's not the main issue here)

 

(And also I'd appreciate it if you stopped making racist assumptions about me kthx)

[tamar braxton]

That all seems to suggest that affirmative action is bad. Going back to education, it should be possible to state why someone didn't get into university. My point is that the reasons may be simple, but they may also be very complex -- and we have to know. Affirmative action by itself is akin to doctoring the statistics to cover up real structural problems that need tackling...

 

 

...like these, for example. This time I happen to agree with Hanryu that it's easier to slap a band-aid on it and pretend we have uplifted the poor savages instead of confronting ourselves the difficult way.

 

Because white people have once again used it to benefit themselves the most, shocker

[Guest Kami_removed]

 

 

 

 

America doesn't tell us not to forget the holocaust or the titanic

 

comparing those 2 to 9/11 is so stupid 

[nikki250]

Affirmative action isn't a band-aid. It's one solution out of many to a systemic problem. This isn't an either/or situation.

 

 

That's why it's a band-aid fix. It covers up the real problem (classism and lack of proper education for impoverished youngsters), and hopes it'll just fix itself.

It's not going to fix itself, and the gap between the rich and the poor is just going to keep widening until the US becomes a damn 3rd world country if we don't stop being distracted by all of these things unnecessary things.

 

 

(And no, I'm not saying that racism is 100% gone in the US. It's definitely still present here and there, but it's not the main issue here)

 

 

Classism as a problem is not more real than racism. They intersect in many ways and you can't separate the two and say one is more important the other.

Also I've never heard of students getting into universities based on affirmative action alone and I go to a school that uses it as ONE part of its admission process. All the minorities I know (including myself) are doing just fine. And I don't think Ivy Leagues are letting in C students just because they're black. Although C-student George W. Bush did get into an ivy league. hmmm

[Kajitsu]

...Did you intend to just prove my point for me? 'Cause you did.

 

 

Affirmative action has consistently been shown to be ineffective at actually solving the problem, despite what you people are being led to think. Also, the drop in admissions after the discontinuation of affirmative action are primarily students who would not get in on their merit alone, meaning they shouldn't be going to that school because they're just not qualified. The number of minority enrollments tends to decrease quite a bit immediately following the cessation of affirmative action, and then picks back up again over the next few years as qualified students begin enrolling more.

A large portion of students who get into their first choice college based on affirmative action alone end up being overwhelmed and fail to do well. This not only puts them into debt and sets them back in their career and life (as well as doing a number on their confidence), but it also takes away spots at that college from qualified students. It's a lose-lose situation all around, with a few lucky qualified flukes getting through okay.

That's what happens when you throw merit out the window; you can ruin people's lives. 

 

The solution isn't to force more under-qualified students into colleges. The solution is to get good education to more impoverished children early on, which will then generate more qualified and motivated students and workers later on down the line, and end the cycle of poverty that people get stuck in due to lack of adequate early education. This has been a classist issue for a while now, but people still assume it's a racist issue because historically racial minorities have made up a disproportionately high percentage of people living in poverty in the US (even though the US is actually one of the least racist countries in the world nowadays). When we choose to say enough is enough and fight poverty and classism as a whole, then we will see more diversity higher up occur naturally.

 

 

That's why it's a band-aid fix. It covers up the real problem (classism and lack of proper education for impoverished youngsters), and hopes it'll just fix itself.

It's not going to fix itself, and the gap between the rich and the poor is just going to keep widening until the US becomes a damn 3rd world country if we don't stop being distracted by all of these things unnecessary things.

 

 

(And no, I'm not saying that racism is 100% gone in the US. It's definitely still present here and there, but it's not the main issue here)

 

(And also I'd appreciate it if you stopped making racist assumptions about me kthx)

 

How many students are we talking?

Do you have percentages?

Are they sourced?

[h0neanias]

Because white people have once again used it to benefit themselves the most, shocker

 

That doesn't mean the system doesn't work -- nor does it mean it does. Again you support the notion there is something more important at play, something that affirmative action itself can't solve. But even if no white people benefitted from AA, it would say nothing about whether it works as intended or what its real effects are.

[sane]

Classism as a problem is not more real than racism. They intersect in many ways and you can't separate the two and say one is more important the other.

Also I've never heard of students getting into universities based on affirmative action alone and I go to a school that uses it as ONE part of its admission process. All the minorities I know (including myself) are doing just fine. And I don't think Ivy Leagues are letting in C students just because they're black. Although C-student George W. Bush did get into an ivy league. hmmm

 

Do you not realize just how big the gap between the rich and the poor is in the US? It makes the gap between whites and non-whites look like a bucket of water sitting next to a lake.

I'm not saying one is more important than the other, but one is clearly more severe than the other.

 

Since you seem to like infographics, have some on the poor-rich difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The poor in this country not only suffer from an education crisis, but their quality of food and healthcare is so negligible that at the lower end of the spectrum people are actually beginning to live shorter lives than the previous generations again for the first time in a long time. Over half of Americans will spend at least one year of their life below the poverty line.

 

You can't tell me that's a race issue when over twice as many whites are in poverty as blacks or hispanics. Yes, black and hispanic people have a higher percentage risk of being poor, but when looking at the actual numbers white people still far outnumber them. This is primarily a class issue. The crossover is not significant enough to label it as primarily a race issue, even if there are mild racial undertones.

 

 

One of the main problems with affirmative action is that it does nothing to address the fact that poor students are considerably less likely to even finish high school, let alone go for college. That's why early education is so important. How can you go to college and get a career if you dropped out in 10th grade to work at a fast food restaurant to stay off the streets?

Most times you can't.

 

 

 

How many students are we talking?

Do you have percentages?

Are they sourced?

 

 

Here's one source. It's not perfect considering all of the variables, but it does give some pretty intriguing data and it outlines mismatch theory. It also mentions that those students that do poorly at higher institutions would be much more likely to do well at less prestigious institutions (that most wouldn't consider if they had the chance to go to a more fancy school), and thus would have more successful careers.

[Hero Kim Jaejoong]

Drink some Kool Aid and get over it.

[nikki250]

Do you not realize just how big the gap between the rich and the poor is in the US? It makes the gap between whites and non-whites look like a bucket of water sitting next to a lake.

I'm not saying one is more important than the other, but one is clearly more severe than the other.

 

Since you seem to like infographics, have some on the poor-rich difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The poor in this country not only suffer from an education crisis, but their quality of food and healthcare is so negligible that at the lower end of the spectrum people are actually beginning to live shorter lives than the previous generations again for the first time in a long time. Over half of Americans will spend at least one year of their life below the poverty line.

 

You can't tell me that's a race issue when over twice as many whites are in poverty as blacks or hispanics. Yes, black and hispanic people have a higher percentage risk of being poor, but when looking at the actual numbers white people still far outnumber them. This is primarily a class issue. The crossover is not significant enough to label it as primarily a race issue, even if there are mild racial undertones.

 

 

One of the main problems with affirmative action is that it does nothing to address the fact that poor students are considerably less likely to even finish high school, let alone go for college. That's why early education is so important. How can you go to college and get a career if you dropped out in 10th grade to work at a fast food restaurant to stay off the streets?

Most times you can't.

 

Here's one source. It's not perfect considering all of the variables, but it does give some pretty intriguing data and it outlines mismatch theory. It also mentions that those students that do poorly at higher institutions would be much more likely to do well at less prestigious institutions (that most wouldn't consider if they had the chance to go to a more fancy school), and thus would have more successful careers.

All I have to say to you is that you really need to read about intersectionality. so here's the wikipedia page on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

If you take a black lesbian from a low income background, you can't make all her identities separate entities that act all on her own. Her life experiences are shaped by being black, being a woman, being homosexual, and being poor and the many different ways they intersect. So yes, classism is a race issue. Racism is a feminist issue. LBGT rights are a an issue for those with disabilities. and every kind of combination you can think of.

 

And here's a critique of the research that New York Times article is based on:

http://lareviewofbooks.org/article.php?id=1382&fulltext=1

 

and here's an article about the history of affirmative action (similar to one I had to read for a polisci class)

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/blj/vol19/kidder.pdf

He focuses on law schools too.