raspberry84

At the end of the day, no idol has full control over their image and historically people have gone along with fake relationships because it benefited the product they were trying to sell. At this point I'm waiting to see how Heechul and Momo play out in the longterm before I pass any major judgement. I'm assuming it's real at this point but that opinion isn't cemented. As far as BTS goes, I think the narrative that they're in complete artistic control was a smart move on BH's point because the fans have fully embraced it. Fans give them credit for everything connected to their comeback despite their being entire teams who put these things together. You don't need to be an anti to acknowledge that sometimes BTS is given credit for things they didn't work on at all (the HYYH era, for example) and that BTS Connect is definitely a major product that was brainstorm, created and put on by an entire team (which BTS is working with but not in control of as we saw with Black Swan). People are quick to forget that Taehyung was denied his Christmas song because it was romantic and involved two men singing together. The only way they'd approve that song is if he sang it with a female (which shows they have to get approval for their own songs). There is also Jin and BH stating that all of BTS wants to enlist in the military when Yoongi in the past literally referred to it as a death sentence and went on to wish he had something wrong with him so he wouldn't have to. I'm honestly gonna be curious to listen to Yoongi's mixtape because I really don't think he's gonna get the same freedom as his original one and honestly it's kinda made me wonder if that's why it hasn't been released yet (Namjoon alluded to Yoongi's being finished in the fall of 2018 and that's why he released Mono when he did but it's been well over a year now). Edit: The point of bringing up the control of BTS's image is relevant here because I've often heard the argument that if someone in BTS wanted to come out, they would be able to. Which is definitely far from the truth. I also think the Taehyung example shows how this does apply to anything that is viewed as being too "queer"

The fact that he was so obvious about it right before he went in makes me hopeful he's made the decision to come out once he's completed his service (since the military and being out is not a great combo). I think at this point it's already assumed by a lot of people, including his fans, so hopefully the backlash won't be as bad. I've also wondered if Key would come out post-military, cause he's been fairly open about it throughout his career as well. The only reason I'm not as confident about him is it the fact that regardless of what he says, it's gonna reflect on Jonghyun to some extent. Edit: OMG at this defending of Seungri, completely missing the point and then insulting idols?

Yep. I'm definitely going to keep my eyes on them and see how this whole plays out. So far it seems to be working out for them thankfully. I don't think we're gonna get anyone pulling a full Miley Cyrus and going from innocent to scandal-ish but honestly, I'd kinda pay to see that. I'm also interested in Jo Kwon once he's out of the military. He seems real close to officially coming out and that'll be interesting to see how the industry responds to something like that happening.

I have to wonder if we're ever going to get a well-established group that breaks off from their company and reinvents themselves like we saw happen with BSB/NSYNC. I think the closest we're seeing of them is Hyuna and E'Dawn announcing that they were dating and moving to a different company. Which, honestly, was a pretty big deal and it took a lot of guts for them to do that.

Yikes. I never really followed any behind the scenes stuff for Big Bang, with the exception of GD because I was introduced to his solo stuff first. That really does show the power of the image when it comes to marketing and creating a fanbase.

Please do. That would be an interesting read.

Last response to you in this thread (however I do intend to continue discussing with other people here if they so wish): You're posts aren't logical. You immediately jumped to comparing having a public persona (that was manufactured in part by the company) to the person being a sociopath, having DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) or being antisocial. You also continued to insist that we saw them for "hours on end" as your defense, even though we see only a tiny part of their life (edited and filtered). Western pop music from that era is brought up because there are a lot of parallels to how groups were created and promoted. We also talked about examples of KPop idols not being who we thought they were. Such as Seungri from Big Bang or the interview I posted above where a member of Crayon Pop talked about having to change how she acted and the control she was under while she was an active idol. There are numerous interviews with ex-pop stars, both Western and Korean, that talk about how controlled their image was, etc. TW: Amber talking about Sulli beneath cut

Interesting interview that is worth listening to. Some key points: She talks about having to change how she acted once she became an idol Company controlled how often they went out and who they saw so it was common to have secret cell phones Her father was even blocked from visiting on her birthday Use emotional manipulation to control the, such as kicking them out of the band and having them pack before telling them they could stay.

I mostly follow people that are late 20s/early 30s and up on twitter but occasionally a tweet slips into my timeline and I'm reminded how young part of the fandom is. It'd be interesting to see how they reflect back on this stuff in the future, in the same way that we can reflect back on our original pop era (even if that was a big more transparent from the start). At least the kpop fandom doesn't really have to deal with leaked sex tapes or people being outed without their consent (even if that leads to people thinking all idols are straight which lol)

From what I gathered about the club thing, he was basically noticed out at a club with a friend in Germany. The girls who posted that they saw him there basically got harassed into taking it down and then it blew up into rumors of him having threesomes or being wild cause...you know...the original tame story was no longer public and people's imagination ran wild. It was ridiculous. I actually got blocked by someone on twitter because I said I didn't think it was a big deal that Tae vaped since he was a full grown adult...mind you, this person wrote explicit BDSM fic about Tae. She also complained a lot about people posting about Jungkook's tattoos because it was glorifying tattoos or something. I think so many want them to be innocent and like..blank slates. So whatever characteristics of a boyfriend they want can be imprinted onto them in their fantasy. Hence why they immediately get upset at the idea of them not being innocent. There are a disturbing number of fans who still think the majority of idols are virgins and like...that level of delusion.

Everything is far more secretive in kpop and I think that's what makes it harder for people to understand that. If we're talking Hollywood, a lot of stuff was open secrets in the 80s and 90s and the rise of the internet lead to a lot of gossip bloggers like Perez Hilton and OhNoTheyDidnt. There was a while there in the early 2000s when basically everything was getting outed, from sexuality to drug addictions to partying. There was so much information and evidence that people couldn't deny it and it kinda just became...known. The opposite tends to happen in KPop, the fans who know stuff cover that up and stuff only leaks when it reaches extremes that involve death or actual arrests. Hell, BTS fans have so desperately tried to cover up Jimin at a club or the fact that Tae vapes...I can't imagine how they would react to anything larger than that (and you know there has to be something because those two things are tame as shit).

Yep, it should be like required because when people talk about that era it's usually only the fun, happy stuff and not the dark side (which was public knowledge and talked about at the time). I kinda feel like it's a big disservice that outside of the big stuff (aka Lou Pearlman) a lot of it has just started to be forgotten. Like how the health of the members is secondary to the product (Brian from BSB had to have fucking heart surgery but had to keep delaying it because they kept scheduling events) or how your role in the group impacted how much freedom you had (AJ from BSB being able to go to rehab cause he was the 'bad boy' in the group but Nick's addiction getting swept under the rug because he was the baby of the group).

So you're just not gonna address the bulk of the post about the amount of time we actually see the idols behind the scenes and how controlled and edited that media actually is. Cool. So we're both in agreement that idols make the choice to have their image and creative freedom controlled and therefore both the music and their image isn't 100% authentic. It is, in fact, a manufactured product created by the company.

Stop. This is getting embarrassing. I really get the feeling that this is less about the term and more about you, on some level, wanting to believe that everything you see is 100% authentic them (even if it's not all of them). I get it, it can be really hard to accept that the person you're a fan of might be different behind the scenes. You keep insisting we see their real life all the time, they honestly communicate with us via SNS and only people who are sociopaths or have Dissociative Identity Disorder could present themselves differently in front of them camera. 1) We don't see them for hours and hours. We see a few select moments of their life and often these are moments that are edited or they made the choice to let us see. BTS for example, is extremely private and we've only see a few hours of footage from their life over the past 6 months. Probably not even enough to fill 2 or 3 days. The majority of which comes from Run, Bon Voyage and the Winter package (all of which was filmed and edited by their company and therefore gives them full control over what is included and what isn't). Two days of 180 days? That's not even 1% of their life this past 6 months. You don't see or know what they're doing on the daily so please stop acting like they are. Do you actually think we see them for "hours on end" on a regular basis? Cause that ain't even close to reality. The reality is you probably get to see as much of them as you do the barista in your scenario. (Assuming we've seen 2 days worth of BTS footage since last summer...that is roughly 8 minutes a day if you average it) 2) Most idols have very little control over their own artistry and lack creative control. As I mentioned above, it's not uncommon for young artists to get signed into contracts that are extremely long and take away a lot of control. By the time they realize something is wrong, years have passed. But, just like going along with the image the company wants them to have, it's a choice they make in order to have the career they want. Taehyung, for example, wrote a Christmas song and wanted it to be a duet with Jimin. He was told no by the producer and that he would need to duet with a girl because the song seemed like a boy-girl song (aka romantic-ish). He had to either give up the song or concede to recording it with a girl because that honestly is part of their contract when it comes to making and producing their own music. Or Holland who was told he wouldn't be able to come out as gay if he wanted to be an idol and how, to have that creative control, he had to go an independent path. He has more creative control but far less resources and opportunities. Most artists aren't able to fight back against that until they get huge (see BSB & NSYNC vs Lou Pearlman, Kesha vs Dr Luke, Mariah Carey vs Tommy Mottola, Zayn leaving 1D and voicing that he never enjoyed the music, etc.)

Straight people logic makes no sense.

Went to that website cause I didn't recognize the name and it looks like it focuses on youtubers, streamers and people in esports so it makes a bit more sense why they'd write an article on this. But it's also definitely a clickbait title. I really can't figure out if the OP picks these articles to stir drama or if they actually believe them.

Slightly off topic but I'd suggest anyone who didn't live through the boy band crazy of the late 90s/early 2000s and don't know about Lou Pearlman learn about him because there are definitely a lot of parallels to how some KPop companies create and manager their companies (aka doing everything in house, not paying the members for years, targeting young teens with grossly unfair contracts, etc.)

A public persona doesn't mean a totally different person, it just means controlling and highlighting the parts of you that are appealing. In extreme cases, it does rely a bit on fabrication or exaggeration. Like I said as an earlier example, Jamie Lynn Spears was marketed as the All-American Girl who was innocent and virginal. So she announced she was pregnant and people realized she had been sexually active with her boyfriend...it basically wrecked her career because the "real" her didn't match the her that was marketed to her fan base. I find it weird that you suggest anyone who goes along with the image that their company wants them to have must be a sociopath or have dissociative identity disorder or be antisocial...which tells me you don't actually understand what those actually are. It just means they're doing what they need to do. Think of it this way: the barista at Starbucks might smile and tell a person to have a nice day even if that person was a complete jerk to them and was incredibly rude. It doesn't mean the barista is a sociopath, it just means that they're doing what they need to do to get that paycheck. Edit: per·so·na /ˌpərˈsōnə/ noun the aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others. "her public persona"

I feel like you also see this a lot in the big social media influencers this day. Although that may be more obvious because their social media started out more authentic pre-success and remnants of that stay online forever. Take Dan & Phil, who use to have a BBC radio show and did a bunch of hosting gigs after getting famous on youtube. Their "how we met" story was fabricated to be appealing to the general public. Like, yea, it was based around what really happened but lied about them having mutual friends who introduced them (Dan had been a fan of Phil's and they had become internet friends) and completely erased the fact that they were dating (something they've just recently publicly acknowledged). And Dan has talked at length about how having to play a part and fit into this "personality" was difficult for him and it's why he's basically retired and stepped away from it all. Especially in regards to keeping up the public image of them just being friends because he wasn't even out to his family at the time.

Also, the crown here looks really similar to one that appeared above Yoongi's head in the mv.

I think the problem is you take "manufactured" as saying everything about them is fake where instead it's just highlighting and presenting certain parts of them in the most desirable way and hiding away parts that are not so nice and appealing. Their image and what parts of them that we see them as is manufactured in the sense that it is controlled and intended to be appealing. Also, I'm gonna disagree with someone being a sociopath because they act in a way that reflects best on their image. As we've mentioned, this was normal for a lot of the pop stars of the late 90s/early 2000s and they talked about how difficult it was for them to be marketed that way. It wasn't something they enjoyed doing but it was something they were required to do. Take Jamie Lynn Spears, Britney's Spear's sister. She was marketed as the all-American good girl and was a staple of tween media (even having her own tv show). When she got pregnant it broke that image and basically ended her career. When in reality, teen pregnancy isn't all that uncommon and other celebs have survived it cause it didn't go against their branding. And I never said they didn't post on twitter, my point was they don't individual social media that is an unfiltered outlet. They have one twitter that, by nature, is meant to represent the band and their image. You're still not hearing them unfiltered and honestly wouldn't be shocking if they had private social media accounts that only their friends could see. Their group twitter is very, very different from a personal twitter you or I may have. Sidenote but this whole conversation about roles in groups reminded me of this:

I just saw! LOL Yeah, I think the shared experience of that era definitely gives us a different perspective on it all then someone who hasn't. Also: I started looking up the records for first week sales and No Strings Attached still has the 2nd best first-week numbers. Like, literally, Adele was the only one to ever outsell that with her "25" album. Those are also the only two albums to break 2 million in sales for the first week. Icons.

The pop act of the late 90s/early 2000s weren't "blank canvas" that took years for personalities to be built up. They had defined, manufactured roles within the group when they debuted. Hell, the Spice Girls were literally referred to as their role within the group (sporty spice, baby spice, etc.). Also, it became really common for there to be shows about a group being formed, their training and ultimately dropping their first song or album. The process of creating images and roles wasn't really a secret by the end of that era of pop music. Like, I understand if you didn't live through it because you're younger, but a lot of the pop stars from that era have publicly talked about how controlled their image was by their companies and how much of it was scripted. And you're acting like the current KPop artists have their own independent social media accounts that they're able to be 100% honest on. They don't. Take BTS, they don't even have their own (public) social media. They share one twitter and they definitely can't post whatever they want on that. Same with their weverse or fanclub accounts, there is a limit of what they can or will say on those. Again, you don't know the idols. You're not their friend. You're a fan. You're only seeing the part of them that they want you to see. Which may highlight or downplay parts of their personality.

I had to go look up how long that record held and like damn, they held the record for week one sales for 15 years. My mom picked it up for me and I lost my mind when I walked into my room and it was waiting for me. That album was a cultural moment.

It really, really was. Bye, Bye, Bye will always be an iconic first single.