pryzilla

Love the sinner, hate the sin, guys.

I am incredibly frustrated by this disingenuous post. The receipts of your comments have been posted plain as day for everyone to see. "Sarcasm" doesn't even begin to come close to the tone and derision of your comments. "It seemed pretty simple to me"? Somehow you and everyone else on the mod team was mistaken. Do you have any plans moving forward to fix your massive failure of epistemic closure? I also want to clarify something for the people who still don't understand what people mean when they say "homophobic" behavior occurred here, because the responses from the mods thus far have acted as if it's ridiculous on its face that they could have possibly been homophobic. People are saying that the mods' response was homophobic (and that includes the mods who are queer) for two main reasons. One, because the initial response sided with the poster in the thread who called people pedophiles. There is a long homophobic cultural history of equating gay men with pedophiles (see: the awful statements by the Boy Scouts when they tried to ban gay scoutmasters). Two, the explanation of the new policy moved the goalposts. You can read for yourself from receipts posted that initial discussions were awfully loose and free with conflating discussion of sexuality with sexualization itself. This is also an idea with a long homophobic history that isn't enforced against straight people, only against gay people who "get out of hand." What people don't seem to understand here is that you can engage in homophobic policy, enforce homophobic acts, and support homophobic people even if you're gay or support gay marriage. And we know this because gay people do this to other gay people all the time, whether it's erasing bisexuality, disdaining femme guys, or excluding butch women. I understand that it must have been "heavy" and hurtful to be told, repeatedly, with sharp words, that you are supporting homophobic policies or people. But gay people are raised in the same homophobic society as everyone else, and part of coming out is realizing how much of what we take for granted as "normal" and "equal" is really an unjust burden on gay people for being gay. I'm frustrated by this idea that there couldn't possibly have been homophobic policy here, because the acts and policies that made everyone so angry were literally homophobic. This is what I'm talking about when I say that the mods aren't engaging the substance of the debate. Know how you can change people's minds? Explain why it is that you supported those homophobic policies and said those homophobic words without pretending like you were misunderstood, misinterpreted, or people are just crazy. You said what you said and did what you did. If you want people to change their minds, provide some explanation that isn't just "I know my own heart."

I think it's telling in the statement that they're still referencing the "people said my identity isn't legitimate" line of defense to suggest both sides are equally at fault instead of addressing the fact that one of the mods was actively on OH making snide comments about the users in this thread and their desire to "speculate" about kids. That's the person who should really be heard from, and that we haven't makes it clear that this is a "send the smiley face to hide the ugliness that hasn't changed behind the curtain" scenario. If people are interested in moving to Discord/DMs on another platform, I'd be all for that. This place really doesn't deserve any more traffic. Take care of yourselves, everyone. Have really enjoyed lurking and chatting with other LGBTQ kpop fans over the years.

This is a poor statement that addresses nothing of the substance of people's critique. Virtually every point that was made is addressed generically ("it was handled badly") or defensively ("we were misconstrued/misunderstood", "it came across as"), rather than engaging with the very logical points that people were making about: 1) Internalized homophobia and general historical ignorance about the tropes wielded against LGBTQ people. 2) Your defensiveness has clearly not abated. There is virtually no active language in this statement; everything is passive. "Things were misunderstood," "mistakes may have been made," "could have been constructed better." This is not just a PR 101 failure; it's a basic apology failure. It's not an apology if you don't actually understand what you've done wrong. 3) The behavior of the mod team, including their dog whistle comments and attempt to use their personal sexuality as a shield, made clear that it is about the lgbt thread. 4) The mods still struggle to understand the difference between attack and valid critique. Users using strong language or criticizing the mods' personal behavior is still not the same as an attack. 5) Please learn the basics of communication. It's a two-way street, and the onus isn't just on the receiver to hear the message. The mods also need to realize that if people were "misinterpreting" their words, perhaps their words were poorly phrased or the ideas themselves were garbage. Embarrassing and sad. Goodbye.

lol

They can make all the magnum opus posts they want. It won't change the facts, and I hope they see that: 1) The mods let their personal prejudices get in the way of even trying to understand basic (and I mean basic) ideas about LGBTQ equality and liberation that have been discussed, developed, and taught by educators, activists, and advocates for decades. This isn't some sophisticated sociological theory; it's having even a basic sketch outline of the history of this community, one that people who are part of this community especially should know. 2) The mods let their personal prejudices get in the way of creating fair and equitable content policies that are enforced uniformly throughout the site. 3) In the absence of uniform implementation, the mods are using their site privileges to target threads they don't like, content they don't like, and users they don't like. 4) The mods have used hyperbole and insinuations to describe this thread in ways that make it sound like the discussion is dirty or vulgar (see: one mod in particular describing this thread as 'speculating about 15 year olds,' a turn of phrase designed to sound pedophiliac) without taking the "hit" for invoking the specter of such homophobic tropes. This is what's known as a "dog whistle," a type of language used to imply and infer while retaining the ability to deny that inferences are being made. 5) Queer kpop fans need a space of their own, one moderated by someone whose qualifications, level of thoughtfulness, and education aren't just their sexual identity.

Not to derail, but if you could use a pick me up, here's a Shinhwa classic...

The actions of the mods/admin in this situation have been shamefully ignorant. It's the height of tomfoolery to assume that identifying as pan or LGBTQ means you have perfect empathy and knowledge of everything that touches the topic of sexuality and shouldn't be criticized for poor logic. You can be pan or gay or what have you and still be a complete fool when it comes to rational discussion about sexuality; look at Milo Yiannopoulos. I'm genuinely embarrassed that instead of taking the time to sit down and hear what people are saying, they're digging in their heels, talking in circles, and using rules that can't be enforced in any practical way sitewide to shut down discussion on this thread that isn't in the least sexual. Personally, I think we should all just discuss what we want. Let them try to ban the hundreds of users who visit this topic if they'd like OH to get even quieter than it already was pre-Burning Sun. What a bitter irony that it was the evil behavior of straight men who reinvigorated this forum at the same time that the mods decided that people talking about gay teens having crushes was the hill they wanted to die on.

+1 million upvotes

People are often accepting of things in "othered" groups that they wouldn't tolerate at home. Acceptance of non-Korean gay people is about as meaningful as a parent who thinks it's okay for other children to be gay, but not their own.

Just let it go. Some people use online forums to pour out their irritation on random people out of proportion to the offense. No one is going to get an apology or change anyone else's behavior. Just enjoy fandom with people who vibe with how you prefer to treat others.

This makes me kind of teary! I remember participating in the Seoul Pride Parades almost a decade ago, and there were so few people! To see how much things have changed is amazing. Back then, a lot of the Koreans wore masks to hide their identities. No music, no half-naked dancing, just a quiet stroll down the street. There's a long way to go, but it reminds me not to be completely cynical all the time hahaha.

Yikes @ those comments, so entitled. Everything in the world is not straight people's porn...

I get frustrated by this too for a couple reasons: 1) assumes there's no cross-pollination between Western gay culture and Korean gay culture, which is wrong 2) it doesn't consider that gay idols could use korea's homosocial blindspot to "hide in plain sight" 3) it's part of a backlash among Western fans where they claim that everything from colourism awareness to fighting homophobia is "western imperialism," as if there aren't gay Koreans and Black Koreans. Maybe they should try listening to actual Koreans instead of talking over them. I'm Korean and while I think there are different norms for physical affection, Korea isn't some cloistered sheltered oasis with no exposure to western culture. The truth is always more complicated than fandom agenda.

This reminded me of something from when Shinee did that creepy noona love show way back just after their debut. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Key say his ideal woman was Chloe Sevigny lmaaooo??? That just screamed "I'm a cerebral fashion loving gay" to me.

More than any of the evidence from his teacher's interview or the fanservice, it's the video of him predebut that convinced me: every little gay boy who ever put on their mom's heels and pranced around to madonna knows what that is, lol

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