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There was a post about him from a little while ago but I can't find it lol so I'll just give my take. (Sorry if the pics aren't a perfect match lol. Man literally never has the same facial expression twice.) I think he's had his natural double eyelids, which were uneven and hidden, deepened and evened out. The creases are now more prominent than they were before and they seems to sit slightly higher. He also seems to have had an epicanthoplasty. His inner corners have changed shape. They're less sharp and narrow now and more rounded and open, which makes his eyes over all look bigger. There's also some warping of the skin around his inner corners in some pics which is a telltale sign of an epicanthoplasty. I'm on the fence as to whether or not he had work done on his nose, but I'm starting to think his nose does look more defined, especially through the tip. The bridge looks like it may be have been raised slightly too but I can't really say for sure without predebut side profile pics to compare (which I unfortunately couldn't find). I do think he's been going in with the fillers lately though. His face is looking a lot fuller than it used to. I hope that helps!

I respectfully disagree. The shape of his eyes really hasn't changed. The only difference is the resolution: When trying to detect an epicanthoplasty you have to look very closely at the eyes and their shape. Look at Taeyong's inner corners. They go in the same amount and are equally pointed. The same amount of tear duct is visible too, it just looks shadowy in the first pic due to low resolution. Ironically, his epicanthic folds are actually more visible in the after picture than the before. To this day, Taeyong's epicanthic folds are very intact: Given I don't see a change in his eye corners or epicanthic folds from predebut to the present I would say no epicanthoplasty for him.

Ah yes Jeno. He's one of the most natural members of Dream and definitely of NCT as a whole. I honestly can't find any changes in his face that look surgical: The only real differences are in his bone structure, specifically his jaw and cheeks bones, which look more prominent, but that's a pretty normal result of puberty. I'd say he seems natural unless someone else catches something I'm missing.

He's definitely in that ball park, though the tallest he's admitted to is 190.5 cm I think. Before that he was saying 189 then he admitted to actually being 190.5 before he taking it back and saying 187cm. (Like anyone buys he shrunk 4cm pls). Apparently some fans calculating height based on his weight and his body fat percentage (which he revealed) say he's around 190cm. He seems to be in that range compared to Lee Jaewook (187cm): I'd say he's 190cm at minimum and 193cm at maximum I actually am not sure I agree that tall idols don't lie about their height. Sungyeol did (said he was 180cm but is actually 183). Astro's Sanha is definitely taller than 184cm and Sowon is over 172. Some people think Johnny has subtracted a few cm (and I wouldn't be surprised if he has). Tzuyu as well. People think she's 172-3cm but she stands by 170. Rowoon obviously has been less than truthful and Taeyang (SF9) has never updated his height but is pretty clearly around 183cm now compared to officially 181cm at debut. I'm sure there are other idols too but these are just the ones that came to mind. It is true that 4th gen idols may be more honest - tall women like Monday and Aisha for instance.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I think it's important to look at more than just current pictures and whether or not a jaw looks "suspicious" when determining whether or not someone has had a jaw shave. Jaws come in all shapes and sizes and though yes, her jaw does look like a lot of shaved jaws, I wouldn't decide that automatically means she's shaved her jaw without further evidence. Chaeyoung's jaw has been the same throughout her time active, starting with Sixteen in 2015: On sixteen Chaeyoung was literally sixteen lol, and, well she may have already had a jaw shave at this point, her age makes it less likely. However, if looking at her predebuts I saw a large change in her jaw, I would think that she did shave her jaw despite her age. Just for reference - In the gif above you can see Somi's jaw as well. Now, Somi was only fourteen here so I'm pretty sure this is her natural jaw, yet her mandible angle isn't prominent. It's high and fairly close to her ear, but present, unlike Chaeyoung's. Looking at Chaeyoung's predebuts, I don't see a drastic change in her jaw from the front. However, in most of the pic I could find, she was pre-pubescent and the jaw strengthens as you grow up. Based off this predebut pic, I do see a difference. This makes me think she did shave her jaw, but without more pics of her as a teen and any side profile shots, I can't be sure. All the other pics of her as a teen I could find are from after she joined the company: She's quite young in these (15-16), but I think that if she shaved her jaw, she'd already done it here Please know I am not trying to shut you down whatsoever. I think I may actually agree with you in Chaeyoung's case. All that I'm saying is jaws vary and determining whether or not someone has had a jaw shave is often not as simple as just looking for whether or not they have a visible mandible angle (tbh I kinda wish it was). How the jaw looks from the front is determined by the length of the jawbone and how steeply it is angled. A higher mandible angle means a steeper jaw and therefore a move v-like appearance from the front. Most natural v-lines occur from a high mandible angle (steep jaw) and a long mandible or jaw bone. For example, Sehun: This make the face look longer overall. Chaeyoung, on the other hand, has a relatively short jawbone, so to have a v-shape from the front, her jaw needs to be extremely steeply angled, and it is: (She looks like Jisoo in this pic but I swear it's Chaeng). Because Chaeyoung's jaw bone is naturally on the shorter side, to create a v-line, her surgeon (if she had a jaw shave) had to make her jaw drastically steeper which is why the mandible angle kind of disappeared. Karina, Wendy, and Sejeong are similar cases. I hope that's helpful! I didn't want to have to retype everything again.

I used to think so too but it looks like Jeongyeon has had an epicanthoplasty as well as fillers and Chaeyoung may have had a jaw shave. They were discussed a little while back.

Height is not really something I'm used to speculating about lol but I would say that proportions aren't really a good way to judge how tall someone is. I know kibbe body typing was mentioned on this thread a little while ago, and I don't want to confuse anybody, but basically, there are ranges of heights for each body type but they people of that type all LOOK around the same height and that's what matters. (They have similar proportions). For example, I'm around 173cm or 5ft8 but if someone were to see a picture of me they would probably put me at around 5ft6-7. I actually have similar proportions to Krystal Jung despite being significantly taller than her. Having a big head in proportion to one's body is something that makes them look shorter than they are (the number of heads tall they are aka the golden ratio shrinks). This doesn't necessarily mean though that someone with a big head is short. It just means they look short, if that makes sense. There are plenty of people for whom the opposite is true (they have smaller heads in proportion to their bodies and therefore look taller than they are). I don't doubt Jaehyun is shorter than 180cm (honestly I suspect that most idols put at exactly 180 are actually slightly short of it and the companies are just rounding up to meet the standard.) For Rosé, namuwiki says she's 169cm or about 5ft7. This is a 5ft7 - 5ft10 height difference compared to Rosé's and Jaehyun's height difference: I'd say it looks pretty similar (Jaehyun is tipping his head slightly.) If Rosé is really 5ft7, I'd give Jaehyun 5ft10 or around 178cm. I wouldn't say he's barely taller than her, it looks like a solid three inches between them to me. There definitely isn't a five inch height difference though. Jaehyun is only 5ft11 or 180cm if Rosé is 5ft8 which I highly doubt. Also btw - 5ft8 isn't tall for a Korean man. It's about average. For this question, I would say yes. A girl with the same measurements and same height as a man would look bigger than him. This all has to do with proportions. For example, men have broader shoulders on average than women so shoulders that are broad for a woman wouldn't be broad for a man. Typically, If a woman has shoulders equally broad to a man's than she has broad shoulders for a woman and he has narrow shoulders for a man, making her seem bigger than him even if they're technically the same size. She's just bigger within her own build. The same goes for height. I hope that was helpful and not too confusing lol : ) Also - some idols actually lie about their height to seem shorter. Like most of SF9 lol. I can't count the number of times Rowoon has "shrunk."

It's when the eyelid crease is deepened to make it more prominent. There are a fair number of idols who seem to have had it done but I'm not sure about Eunwoo. His eyelids do seem deeper to me in pic @Kami the II. provided, but I think that might just be due to differences in the resolution of the photos. In other pics I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Yeah the nose tip changed too. Probably an implant placed over the top of his nose which changed the slope of his bridge and made the tip project out more and appear pointier. There may have been some tinkering done with the tip in addition to the implant to sharpen it more.

I think you meant to quote me and it's fine! I picked that pic quickly, not realizing it was from a photoshoot.

I think a list is a great idea! For SF9 and treasure, street casting may be part of it, but I think an interesting point to bring up is involvement in the industry since a young age. Both Chani and Moonbin (Astro) were child actors and Yedam was on kpop star as a child. Junkyu was also a child model though it looks like he may have had some work done. This is baby Chani with baby Moonbin. So adorable:

Sure. His nose bridge has still visibly changed.

I honestly feel the same way. I think BH is becoming like the new SM when it comes to PS (tho SM is still going strong, ofc). It's like they just slapped the same nose on every member without considering their facial structure or trying to preserve their uniqueness whatsoever. (Not to mention how young they are. They haven't even fully grow into their faces yet). Pretty much every Enhypen nose job was unnecessary in my opinion and only succeeds in making the members look more generic. The only one I'm a fan of is Jay's because I think it's harmonious with his other features. Heeseung's is gratingly obvious and Sunghoon's and Sunoo's look sort of out of place on their faces. Jake's was just plain pointless. He had a very nice (and honestly close to ideal) nose to begin with. Sunghoon's and Sunoo's original noses weren't cookie cutter but I think they fit their faces much better than the ones they have now. The only point I'll give BH is that they don't have SM's obsession with v-lines (thank god).

I'm probably biased but I'd say quite a few members of SF9 seem natural. Namely, Zuho, Chani, and Taeyang. Astro's Moonbin and JinJin also seem natural as well as WJSN's Eunseo. Somi seems like she may be natural also. I hope that helps : )

I'm pretty sure he's done his nose. The shape of the bridge has changed. It used to be slightly hooked. Now it's a ski-slope. Also keep in mind that yes, though he is very young, plenty of idols get work done at his age (he's 17). It just happens predebut so we aren't as attuned to how young they were when they had their procedures.

I’ve changed my mind and I think I agree with you in both Jaehyun’s and Rowoon’s cases. Thanks for trying to explain though I needed to listen to both of them singing live in a higher area in an analytical way and I was actually struggling to find clips for a while. The compilation of Rowoon that @ZRH23 found was really helpful and yeah, I’m not deaf. I can hear what you’re talking about. Sometimes clips go further than words. I would be interested in identifying who the actual baritones in kpop are and if there are any vocalists left that fall over that umbrella. All I’m trying to do is learn and gain a better understanding of vocal types so thank you for helping me do that. : ) Also, EXO’s Kai - I’ve pretty much only seen him labeled as a baritone but I’ve always had my doubts about that. Would you say he’s actually a tenor? Thanks

Thanks I agree. I remember hearing Taeyang sounding noticeably shallower than Jaeyoon in this performance. He has had some moments of more chord closure recently like I mentioned. It sounds to me like recently he's been experimenting some with his delivery but it's resulting in his F4/F#4s sounded a little tight and pushed to me. Some of his mid to lower notes do sound more robust though.

Thank you! Where would Taeyang rank? He can be shallow but I've also heard him sing with more chord closure at times. Also - Inseong was an SM trainee so that explains a lot.

You definitely make a good point! This compilation of Rowoon is interesting lol. He's singing in a higher range here than I'm used to hearing him in and I agree he doesn't sound uncomfortable. I think you may have swayed me lol though I think my point does still stand in other cases. Out of curiosity, would you give Rowoon a supported range and if so what would it be? SF9 have an interesting vocal line. Inseong is definitely the strongest (and Dawon's probably the weakest) but there's debate over who would be second best. As for Junho - I mostly said lower-sitting tenor because I've heard people claim he's a baritone (which he's definitely not) but I get your point that his voice may be higher placed even if it's slightly thicker than some other kpop tenors. He's had trouble mixing the upper 4th octave pretty much forever lol. On Produce he struggled with phrasing the A4 in U Got it and he never did his part in Flash live (which also includes a phrased A4). In the encore stages he sang it once or twice (off key) and then just let other members sing it. He seems pretty comfortable in his lower register but obviously that's more to do with his technique than vocal type.

Ok. First of all, thank you for responding. I genuinely appreciate it. I'm actually really conflict-averse, but I think it's important to have a discourse here so we can all learn from each other. I respect your opinions and I am sure that some of your points are correct. I also appreciate that you opened up the dialogue of what really makes a vocal type in the first place because it's honestly fascinating. The first thing I want to clarify is that I don't think speaking voice is helpful when finding someone's vocal type. At all. Plenty of guys speak in similar ranges but have very different resonances and therefore different vocal types. I was actually trying to point out that very thing out with my examples though maybe I should have made my intention more clear. As for the speaking pitches I brought up, they aren't inaccurate. I used a digital tuner and a piano to double check. However, I only watched a couple clips of each guy and I'm sure speak at different pitches at different times. That's why I said for example, "around an A2" rather than "Jaehyun speaks at an A2 all the time" which obviously isn't the case. He was just speaking at an average of about an A2 in the clips I watched. I brought Felix up because many people consider him to be "the lowest voice in kpop." He's a lower sitting baritone in my opinion. Some people claim he's a bass but I personally don't see it. Anyway, he speaks in a similar area to John Park (slightly higher actually in the clip I watched) but you can definitely hear his vocal chords are on the thicker side. Interestingly, Felix isn't a trained singer (he's a rapper) but he's sung an F4 in a full coordination. Sehun who's in the same boat (not being a trained singer) has as well. There's no reason why both of these guys, if trained, wouldn't be able to get into a G4 area like Jaehyun or any other debated kpop "baritone" does. However, I wouldn't expect them, even with more training, to support up there. When dividing something up into categories the line is between them is always blurry. I think this is definitely the case here with this tenor/baritone situation. However, I think it's important to look at the fact that an average tenor supports up to an F4/F#4 and an average baritone up to a C/C#4. Jaehyun is a well-trained vocalist who shows a pretty solid understanding of support. Only like two weeks ago we were all considering him on the higher-end of average, and as a baritone, he would be. If he's a tenor (and this has come up) he would be below average because he doesn't show consistent support beyond a D4. Honestly, if people like Jaehyun (and Rowoon who's voice is slightly darker than his) are actually tenors, then we need a whole other vocal category or at least another standard to hold them too. There are tenors for whom an F4 is relatively easy, but for Rowoon it's definitely not. It's a high note for him and it sounds like a high note when he sings it. Compare that to really any tenor (even a lower sitting one) and an F4 sounds much more comfortable, more like a low to mid belt than a mid to high belt. I think supporting an F4 is realistic evaluator of vocal ability for lower sitting tenors like Cha Junho and Keeho (who were discussed recently). They're both young and fairly inexperienced but I think it fair to hold them to the F4 support standard. Junho already supports up to an Eb4/E4 and could probably support up to an F4 in future. For Rowoon, however, I wouldn't expect him to be able to support up to an F4 any time soon if ever, and I don't think it would be fair too. The same goes for Jaehyun. Both of them have around eight years of vocal training compared to Junho's four years and have been active in the industry since 2016. As for the kpop industry in general, you're right. Baritones are scarce in kpop. That's why people are disappointed to hear that a lot of them may not be baritones after all. You mentioned that a gigantic reason would be necessary for casting young baritones over tenors and there is one: visuals. I don't know how familiar you are with the kpop industry, but it values appearances over everything else, vocals included. Both Jaehyun and Rowoon were street casted for their looks and ended up debuting as visuals. On top of that, they were both initially funneled into rapper roles which is where most young baritones in kpop end up (and is also part of why they never really end up developing their voices). I think it's important to have a solid understanding of the industry, how it works, and what it prioritizes, when trying to determine an idol's vocal type. It's essential to understand that a kpop baritone isn't going to necessary sound like a baritone in another industry. They are trained to sing like tenors and operate in a tenor range, so yeah, it would make sense that sometimes they're sometimes hard to differentiate. However, there are definitely some tell-tale signs. If Junho, a teenager with four years of vocal training can support higher than Jaehyun a seasoned idol with eight years of SM vocal training, and they are both lower sitting tenors, then I think something is off. If Junho is a lower sitting tenor and Jaehyun is a higher sitting baritone then that makes a lot more sense. Once again, this is just my opinion but I think there is diversity among baritones just as there is diversity among tenors. Not every baritone is going to sound like John Park (who is closer to bass than tenor anyway. Jaehyun and Rowoon would lean closer to tenor), and honestly, something would feel off if they did.

I think these might not be the best pictures to compare. One's a teaser photo so most certainly edited and it's also a close up which distorts features (it makes the nose look bigger for one). The angle is different as well and so are his facial expressions. Better pictures to compare would be more candid ones taken at the same angle and at similar distances from the camera with matching facial expressions. Here are some pics that match (more or less): I hope these are helpful!

Eunwoo is at a healthy weight which honestly isn't super common among idols. He apparently dieted to lose 18lbs predebut and around that time through maybe 2018 he was quite skinny. He's gained weight since then though and revealed he weighed around 73kg which is about 10kg or 20lbs more than his profile says (though it's likely he weighed that around that much at some point.) Moonbin also gained weight since debut and looks to be at a healthy weight now, though he, unlike Eunwoo, hasn't talked about it. Eunwoo honestly used to look a little frail (especially around 2015-6) but now he looks healthy and a lot stronger. I assume working out accounts for some of the changes in his body as well, because he talks about exercise pretty much any chance he gets lol. I honestly applaud Eunwoo for mentioning his real weight after weight gain instead of just letting his profile stand, when Korea has such strict weight standards (especially for women). I hope that he can help normalize being a healthy weight for other idols in the industry. Honestly, it isn't that uncommon for idols to debut underweight and then gain later into their careers, (especially among male idols who tend to "fill out" and gain muscle). Sehun would be another example of this, and like Eunwoo, I think his looks were only enhanced by being at a healthy weight. This makes sense given humans are attracted to "health" or at least the appearance of it is a major factor in human attraction.

I like that clip above in particular. @0.10, phrased F4s had support, so did the rest of the Eb4s. The other clips don't sound as strong but it's not too bad. As far as non main vocals in 4th gen goes, yeah, he's probably one of the better ones for sure. He has a better sense and consistency in support than a lot of the main vocals anyways lol. Plus, with that hairstyle, he looks a lot like L lmao. Especially till the eyes. Thank you so much for analyzing him! I definitely appreciate his vocals more after hearing what you had to say. Crazy Junho was called talentless on Produce and his vocals weren't really appreciated in X1 either which was kind of the Seungwoo/Seungyoun show. It's really great that he's getting more time to shine now. All the clips I shared were pretty old. The Produce/X1 clips are from close to two years ago and the other two are from close to one. I found some more recent clips from the last few months which might be a more accurate representation of where he is right now. (I notice the rasp seems to have decreased somewhat). https://www.instagram.com/p/COBB9nUlrRm/ (This last part of the clip above is just playing around lol.) Again, thank you so much!

I think it would, though it's debated whether he's a lead vocal or the 2nd main vocal (because Woollim groups tend to have main vocal duos). Either way, he's definitely strong for a 4th gen lead and I think he's on the stronger side for 4th gen main vocals too (tho that doesn't say very much lol). He's only 18 and probably could be average in future with some work.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with Cha Junho and how his voice used to sound in his Produce/X1 days, but I've noticed a difference in his singing starting about a year ago when he went back to Woollim (after X1 disbanded). It's pretty subtle and I've not heard anyone talking about it, but he seems to have acquired a rasp/throatiness that wasn't really there before. It's interesting because I've heard a lot of people saying his technique has improved and he's definitely more consistent than he was before. Do you guys think it sound like he have damaged his voice in some way or is it just a new habit? (It doesn't sound like a stylistic choice to me though I could be wrong). I've been wondering about this for a while but I didn't really know who to ask until I found this thread. Before: (1:27- 32 and 4:00-51 are more recent). After: (This first clip is where I first noticed the change) The rasp has been subtler in more recent clips so maybe it's just be a phase. (I personally hope this is the case).