joonsoulie

My point is that a man cheering for a female performer doesn't necessarily mean he is attracted to her.

Sorry, but I think saying "flirting doesn't have limits" feels like a reach and an excuse to read too much into basic polite human interaction. The examples I personally would provide of him flirting with men go beyond just a smile - with the reporter Scott Evans him going "mmm" when the man slapped his thighs and then missing his turn to answer because was caught staring, and he always tries to snuggle up to him on the red carpet. With Usher, he literally woofed when his name was mentioned. I also never said anything about him in that interview with the Indian woman, I still haven't even watched it tbh, but I don'tsee where him being giggly (and blushing? I didn'tsee anyone else point that out) is particularly noteworthy considering... it's Jimin? Re: the 'reactions to sexy female performers' thing - I am curious what the demographics of straight men who haven't been dragged there by their girlfriends at pop diva concerts are. Not to say there aren't any, but I feel like it's probably rarer lmao. The analysis of "BTS x woman interactions compilation!!" really leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it seems to come from either/both 1. the idea that BTS are some sheltered innocent virgins who are lovestruck by any attractive woman they come across or 2. the idea that men and women cannot have professional interactions (interviews, styling) without their being some underlying romantic subtext. It's kind of offensive both to BTS and to the women they are speaking to, like them being a woman supercedes their capacity as a journalist/makeup artist/whatever. No one is trying to belittle their interactions with women, but seeing them speak to a reporter in a purely professional context and interpreting it as flirting is not for me. But as we've discussed this is mostly confirmation bias on all sides

To clarify, by 'interest' do you mean he was attracted to them? And do you think he had something romantic with the staff in that video? It's going to seem like I'm nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, but also when has he flirted with female reporters? /gen I feel like a lot of times what people call flirting is like. Him smiling at a woman

We literally talked about this a couple pages ago they were not escorts

^^ post i was trying to link above

Another clarification () : I by no means am trying to tout that couple as a example of gay representation, I was kind of saying the opposite and that it pissed me off lol. I realize this won't be visible to people unfamiliar with it but like JiminsOppa said they look very much like how young queer Americans present themselves. I wasn't trying to praise BH for diversity considering even if they were supposed to be LGBT it would be the bare minimum of visibility. It wouldn't be out of the question if they were included for representation considering ~diversity~ was clearly something they were going for in the mv. Regarding the assertion that most of the people searching for queer messaging in kpop are cishet girls, I have to hard disagree. Festishizers don't give a shit about LGBT representation beyond hoping their ship is real. And I'd argue that the majority of shippers DON'T actually want their faves to be gay, because they're most often projecting themselves onto their imagined relationship. I hope the majority of people in this thread are not cishet girls and that's not the impression I've gotten. While there are certainly straight women who fetishize gay relationships and may see themselves as activists, those are not the people I interact with and I don't believe they make up the majority of the discussion. Under the cut because this is getting long:

Speaking of PTD, For those who have watched it, what was the deal with this specific couple kissing? Like, did they choose two very queer looking people to try to include subtle representation without tipping off the censors, or was it coincidence? There are a lot of things that bother me about PTD so I'm probably reaching but it irks me that the gayest looking non-BTS people had a "straight" kiss (as everyone has been sure to assert that they could very well be a bisexual couple). Idk Edit: you can't tell from this image but the two people look very queer and I thought they were meant to represent another form of diversity (the LGBTQ community) until they kissed

I want to clarify just in case that I am not saying that this is Joon's boyfriend with any kind of certainty! I moreso wanted to point out the hypocrisy of fans spreading the "joke" (which I've now seen non-fans and baby armys believe to be true) that he has a wife and children in hiding purely because he sometimes wears a ring and said he wants kids someday, but when he's regularly seen in public doing date-like activities with another man they're surely just friends and we shouldn't assume. I also wouldn't question his relationship with this guy if he had done nothing to suggest him being queer, but a lot of his receipts get written off because he doesn't 'seem' gay. Namjoon is also a regular consumer of LGBTQ media; for example Singularity, which is often looked at as a possibly queer-coded song, was written by NJ and inspired by a gay novel he had read. Tae gets the credit for singing it, but it was written by Namjoon. Same thing with Serendipity being an intentionally gender-neutral love song. Of course he could very well just be making an effort to be inclusive, but things like his interest in queer media and comments about finding men attractive generally get ignored. TLDR; I wouldn't even mention the guy if there weren't other factors to suggest to me that he could be LGBT himself. I'm glad we're having this conversation about Jimin.

Because it's normal to assume someone is straight, but anything else is invasive and offensive

The "male producer friend who often accompanies him" to museums, biking, trips across Europe etc. and he shares clothes (and now desserts) with, yes ^^ are you really gay if you haven't taken your bf to a David Hockney exhibit?

Agree with the list and I'd like to add this interview: Along with the 2019 Radio Disney interview, his BE-hind full story interview w Jin asking him questions, etc. This is what I mean when I talk about his manner of speech, there's a softness and cadence to it that is very recognizable to me, as well as his body language (and the lisp of course)

The funniest thing about this comparison is when 1D fans confronted one of the members on Twitter about his mistreatment by their management company and he had no idea what they were talking about. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.capitalfm.com/artists/niall-horan/hit-back-twitter-fan-management-control/ It really echoes the 'manti' narrative that the poor BTS boys are unable to make their own decisions and are being stifled by their company at every turn - and then Jin makes Bang PD cook him dinner. Again, it's an easy narrative to subscribe to when you dislike the decisions being made but don't want to blame the artists. This is not to say that Hybe does not control BTS' images to an extent but to say that nearly every aspect of their lives is being outsourced beyond their influence is a bit of an exaggeration, and plays into the Dark Side of KPop stereotype removing the agency from the artists themselves. Jimin may control a share of that company but he IS the source of everyone's paycheck and it's not like they're a small company anymore, he has every ability to put his foot down if he feels the need to. This really is what it comes down to. Since it's not like we can ask him ourselves, our interpretations are based on assumption and may be wildly different. I think interpreting everything the members do as a business move or at the whim of BH is needlessly cynical, but that's me. I can acknowledge that difference of opinion. I will say I think it's wild that there are still people that think he's straight... he has obviously shown attraction to men and I haven't seen any recent examples of him indicating interest in women since 2014. Maybe he just seems sterotypically gay because he is and it's that simple #JUSTMYOPINIONTHO

*WARNING TO THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO READ ABOUT BTS TO KEEP SCROLLING* You can't say for certain that that is the case. In the Festa video Tae specifically said through Danger era Jimin was angry in part because he had difficulty connecting to the music. As we know Jimin's dieting was likely at its worst during Blood, Sweat, and Tears, years after Danger. This could be part of it but I don't think that's the only factor. I understand that you see parallels between Ueda and Jimin but that doesn't mean their situation is the same, and I don't think what he and the others have said support that. Of course if you say everything is fake or a lie, it's very easy to write off things that you disagree with. Truly if Jimin is being forced into inhabiting a character nothing like him by an evil label I feel so deeply sorry for him, but I don't think that's the case. We will have to disagree. And what is there for Jimin fans to be in denial about? He did nothing incriminating with them in that video. Do you have a link? /gen I don't remember this

THIS 1000x I totally agree! I'm not saying this is the case for Taecoholic but from my observation the vast majority of fans who say "actually Jimin is more like his debut era self he wants to be buff and masculine and show off for girls but evil Hybe is forcing him to be feminine" are (usually cishet) female fans who are really just projecting what they want and what they find attractive onto him. I definitely agree that the narrative that Jimin looks and acts the way he does now as part of a fabricated image results from fans being uncomfortable with the way he presents himself, in part because it makes it more difficult to romantically project themselves onto him. Of course there's also the case where shippers use him as a self-insert and portray him as a delicate femboy who needs protection, which is also wrong and is rooted in effemophobia. But it's not like Jimin is the only one who's addressed the change and how much more comfortable in his own skin he seems now, there are plenty of examples but here's Tae in 2019 Festa describing the negative emotions Jimin held from debut through Danger era because he was constantly on edge and couldn't relate to the art he was creating https://youtu.be/CPW2PCPYzEE (around 33:50). There's another bit of that video where Tae says that after coming into himself Jimin has been "glowing" (I didn't feel like scrubbing through an hour long video but maybe I'll edit in the timestamp later since oh doesn't let you embed images ). I highly doubt Taehyung of all people would say all that just to uphold Hybe's fabrication of Jimin's personhood. It just feels like fans who argue that 25 year old Jimin, one of the most successful people in the entertainment industry and a share owner in his company, is being subject to manipulation and puppeteering (along with the other members for reinforcing his presentation) by a board of investors are creating excuses to justify their dislike of the person he has grown into. And the Paris thing was blown way out of proportion, imo. He was there with a male friend (totally normal) and had some drinks and danced with a group of women who happened to speak Korean (SCANDAL!) like any normal young man should be allowed to. The girls have all confirmed that nothing romantic happened between them after weeks of harassment from fans, they hung out for a while and then each went home to their hotel rooms. Rumors of threesomes and lines of coke in the bathroom were all created to make a juicier story out of what would ordinarily be an uninteresting event.

https://twitter.com/adoraksj/status/1409501673811329024?s=19 I think "idols listen to same popular song OMG dating" rumors are dumb but this made me lol considering the ~insider info~ on these two

^ agreed i think it's a combination of being more obviously styled for a photoshoot vs daily life and it just being part of the concept design. Like ON and Dynamite styles weren't particularly androgynous to me, i think that's just a look they're going for in this comeback

Re: the Sunoo thing: One of the few things I knew about Enhypen before starting to look into them is that Sunoo has a lot of solo fans, and they certainly are the ones raising the alarm bells about his supposed bullying. I agree that people on twitter - the majority of whom don't even know what group he's from, let alone his relationship with the other members - are taking this WAY too far. I see the same people who rail about solo stans and akgaes in other fandoms declaring themselves Sunoo solo stans based on a couple of threads taken out of context. None of the members seemed malicious to me in the content I've seen, but the weight shaming is a serious problem regardless of whether they ostracize him or not. I didn't feel strongly one way or another because I didn't have the full context, but I agree that the people spreading this narrative certainly have a biased perspective and are not acting in good faith. Like I said, I probably was reaching, but I was curious what others thought since it's such a hot button issue in some corners of fandom rn.

*Acknowledging that this is likely (hopefully) a reach* Usually I hate solo victimizer bs like this but there's a discussion going around on twitter about how the other members of Enhypen treat Sunoo. Threads like this giving examples of him being ostracized/made fun of, mostly for his weight: https://twitter.com/ksnlovess/status/1405549179435376642?s=19 And I can't help but wonder if it doesn't have anything to do with his sexuality. Of course the assertion that most or all of the members but him are straight isn't correct because we really don't know and they might just not be obvious, but Sunoo is markedly more effeminate in a group that seems pretty heteromasculine(?) and I fear that's part of why he often is othered. I don't expect all of them to be best friends considering they're rookies and were in competition with each other but... idk I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. (I'm not trying to shit on Enhypen due to assumptions, I've actually been watching a lot of their videos to try to stan them but I didn't notice this behavior in context until now and it's got me thinking)

I will, thank you!

I see what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think that perspective is universally applicable. While this may be true in the US where the gay community is increasingly visible, from my impression in countries like Korea being queer is something that's largely not acknowledged. Even when there are indications that someone may be gay, most people either ignore it or assert that that's not possible. Especially in spaces like kpop where fanservice and acting "gay" for fan's benefit is so common, but rarely do fans actually think that their oppas could be attracted to men. If that was the fear, then I doubt fanservice would be so common or else nearly every idol would be perceived as gay. Many of the people named in this thread who have openly expressed support for the LGBT community were suspected for other reasons, and it may be one of the few venues for closeted idols to connect with a part of themselves they have to hide.

I apologise for implying you could be an anti, but the tone of your post came off as very dismissive to me. Of course this is all conjecture, which is why your assertion that he's comfortable in his heterosexuality is out of place. It's fine if that's your opinion but it seemed as though you were stating it as fact. What op was saying is that because Namjoon seemed to have no qualms about praising Same Love that it may be because he has nothing to lose in doing so - that he's simply an open ally, and not queer himself. I'm curious why you think that expressing support for the LGBTQ community isn't an indicator considering most of this thread uses that as one of the main justifications of idols being queer. And I'm a member of the community as well, I wouldn't be speaking on their sexuality if I wasn't. This is why I took offense to the implication that support for the LGBT community is something straight men have to hide.

Gosh there's a lot wrong with this. 1) I'm not sure if you're wilfully misinterpreting but op was saying they think he is NOT queer because of that comment, 2) that is far from the only time he's shown support for the lgbt community and even in the context of Same Love he said that the subject matter is what made it more meaningful - not Macklemore, 3) why should men have to censor themselves due to fear of being perceived as gay unless you also believe there is something inherently wrong with being perceived as such, and 4) what knowledge do you have to assert that he's heterosexual when he has as many if not more receipts than a good number of people mentioned in this thread? I can't tell if you're unfamiliar with him or just an anti but I'm wondering why you felt the need to make this comment.

Yeah my intent in posting that clip was purely to get others' perspectives I'm not going to say one interpretation is correct... like I said since general consensus here is that Taehyung is gay I was just curious whether people thought he was flirting or not. I've argued this before but I don't think a man flirting (if that's what he was doing which, idk) with a woman means he is attracted to her. Especially as idols where being flirty is kind of part of their job lol. And I am always happy to be delusional about minjoon lol. They definitely have a different relationship with each other which seems to be reserved primarily for when the cameras are off which I think makes it more real

Yeah while I don't wholly disagree with the results these kind of polls end up being a popularity contest, especially since people spam votes for their favorite member. Edit: Case in point lmao Top three I do agree with but maknae line is p much always going to have the most results, and Yoongi makes sense considering he's the only one who has actually alluded to his sexuality. Namjoon is consistently considered the 'straightest' member because he's the most traditionally masculine. Which is interesting to me, considering he's the most likely to actually have a boyfriend. But he doesn't fit most fans' perception of a gay man, and bisexuality is forgotten, so his receipts get ignored. It might be deleted now but she made a tweet/tweets supporting the Modi government, which is explicitly Islamophobic

I think our disparate interpretations speak to how hard it is to assume someone else's intentions. For my part, I'll withhold judgement until I watch the whole interview. I don't think Taehyung's intention was to flirt with her. Like I said, if the other members hadn't started giggling I wouldn't have thought anything of it. The poster who mentioned straight fangirls are rejoicing is correct - it's so easy to say "man smiles at pretty woman = he is attracted to her" which is not true (especially when you consider that gay men often have more female friends lol). I don't think they all are attracted to her and I loathe the idea that attractive women are automatically subject to romantic ideation by all who look upon them. The other members laughing could very well be due to Tae's story, it just reminded me of friends teasing another friend for talking to their crush. But I do still think Tae is gay or at least bi and this hasn't changed my mind lmao ^ this is my understanding too. I am aware Bang is a shrewd businessman but I doubt he is personally overseeing EN-'s heterosexual image training. Also I'm not sure what about TXT's concept is y/n? Just because their new comeback is a love song with a female feature or what?