joonsoulie

Has anyone discussed how Snow Flower is a love song sang as a duet with a man? Not to suggest he and Peakboy are dating but like symbolically

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with this. Tae is the member who seems the most weary of the idol lifestyle and is one of the few who will actually call fans out on their misbehavior (like asking him about shipping, following them at the airport, etc.) For this reason along with his personality I just don't see him as being willing to sacrifice a major part of himself to please others. Maybe a couple years ago he was more reluctant to rock the boat, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's even spoken about marrying a woman specifically for the past couple of years? He has said he wants kids, but for someone as cosmopolitan as him he wouldn't HAVE to have them the traditional way. We all can acknowledge he's experienced a lot of changes as he's matured and it seems to me he's become less devoted to living up to others' expectations along the way.

The one thing I'll say about this -and this goes for any idol- is that the majority of his fans are (presumably straight) girls, so of course they'll say he likes women if only because the alternative is too painful for them LOL

You guys are just negging anything related to BTS atp damn.... ik kpop stans don't like them but chill out lol

okay The topic of conversation seems to have changed which I am glad about because this all went in a direction I never intended. So this will be my last post on the subject: I have never, and will never, assert that Jimin himself is nonbinary unless he explicitly says so. My only intention is to explain how fans in the trans and nonbinary community take comfort and relate to some specific aspects of his gender presentation. And like I said, Taehyung and even JK sometimes are more often subjects of gender envy due to their occasional ambiguity. Anyone who legitimately tries to assert that they know an idol's gender identity is wrong to do so and I don't agree with them. I shouldn't have brought it up because this is a sexuality thread, but please understand that this is our perspective as trans fans and you may not relate to it. Jimin specifically has been recently subject to a pattern of homophobia and transphobia-tinged insults by antis on twitter, so it's a subject on my mind. Even if fans don't perceive it, his haters certainly do and it's concerning to me and many others. I won't repeat what was said about him because some of it was pretty vile, but all related to his supposed sexual promiscuity and misogynistic insults simply due to his appearance. Also I would like to say if you guys saw my recent responses, it is inaccurate to claim Jimin has said NOTHING about gender norms. But I'll leave it at that since there appears to be no way to change anyone's mind about this. The last thing I'll say is in regards to the assertion that Jimin's recent clothing/styling/personality is designed by the company. I'll agree with the styling to a certain extent, but call me naive, I don't like to imagine that when he and the other members talk about how much more comfortable and happy he is with himself over the past few years that they are outright lying. It's absolutely true that many if not all idols have a persona that may not be accurate to their true selves, but wouldn't it be EXHAUSTING to live your life as someone you're not and keep up a constant lie about it? And having your group members in on the lie as well? It just seems very pessimistic, and I'd like to believe there's at least a bit of truth to his statements about loving himself as he is right now. But maybe I'm just foolish for thinking this way. Anyway don't worry. I won't post anymore unless someone replies to this and I feel I have something of merit to say. Carry on

It's generally okay to use it as an adjective, but not a noun. Like saying "Kat uses they/them pronouns" is fine but saying "Kat is a they/them" is not. I suppose I just have a less jaded view of teenagers on the internet figuring out their sexuality but I understand if that's your experience.

I'll agree with the rest of your point but I'm not sure the lesbophobia was needed. Lesbian women can enjoy music by men without being attracted to them, and that's not why they call men lesbians - it's a joke. No one is ACTUALLY going to believe Jungkook from BTS is a lesbian because Laura from Rhode Island says so on twitter. And please don't call nonbinary people 'enbys' unless you are nonbinary yourself

I legitimately was going to shut up after this but I don't understand what the problem with this discussion is?? I think you are being wilfully obtuse at this point.... the entirety of what I am trying to convey is that NO ONE IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO ASSIGN THEM ANOTHER GENDER IDENTITY This is all speculation! The same exact thing this entire thread is about! I won't talk about gender identity any more because this isn't the "what male idols do you think are trans thread" but the way people get viscerally upset about this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. How is it any more offensive to say someone /might/ not be cis than saying someone /might/ not be straight? Or is it just the idea of them being trans that makes you uncomfortable. And once again, the only reason I even brought up the Filter performance and how Jm dresses because someone -specifically asked- why I called him feminine. So the discussion of gender roles is, in fact, relevant... but we've lost the original plot atp.

This is an old post I think succinctly points to the difference between Tae's and Jimin's expression and the possible reasons why.

https://twitter.com/Firehouselight/status/1315330731158065153?s=19 https://twitter.com/Firehouselight/status/1315330731158065153?s=19 Not sure why the links didn't embed themselves

I'll preface this by saying that I am nonbinary, so I have as much of an interest in abolishing the stereotypes of gender presentation as anyone. But from the perspective of society at large, Jimin does not present in a way that would be considered traditionally 'masculine.' He's worn clothing modeled for women numerous times (although this could be the stylists' choice) and enjoys wearing makeup, even saying he wants to give his dad a makeover. He's described himself as "delicate" and "fragile" several times, like during a Run episode where a florist told him "it's rare for a man to be this delicate" and he was visibly very pleased. If you looked at the way he's styled compared to the others, his outfits are noticeably less traditionally male. Again this could be the stylist's choice, but considering they've said he has the most input of the boys in his stage outfits, I doubt he has nothing to do with it. Example from 2020 MAMA Life Goes On performance: https://twitter.com/parkjiminpics/status/1335622331297792000?s=19 He's wearing a cropped shirt and lace gloves - these are not traditionally masculine clothing items. And even when he's not on stage, he intentionally choses jewelry like large hoops and dangly earrings and wearing lots of rings which you can't deny are not thought of as part of the average male wardrobe. As someone who is nonbinary, a lot of us pay attention and take comfort in his gender presentation because it reminds us of out own. The incident to which you're referring was due to cis armys coming into trans space without the nuance to determine what were jokes and what is serious. NB armys were not the ones referring to Jimin with they/them pronouns, but we did make threads like this: https://twitter.com/Firehouselight/status/1315330731158065153?s=19 The Filter performance has sparked a lot of conversation and I was honestly surprised no one mentioned it in this thread. Rather than simply dancing with a mannequin dressed in women's clothing, Jimin put the clothes on himself in a song about changing his "filters" of presentation and personhood. For last year's army zip, he drew the bigender symbol on his arm and called it something he hadn't been able to express before. I don't like people automatically saying he doesn't know what it means, and I also don't take it as confirmation of anything, but I don't think it should be ignored. Of course, gender and sexuality are different aspects of identities, but they can have overlap in terms of behaviour and presentation. If you want me to pull out quotes of him saying "I want to look like a woman" I don't have them. This is the nature of speculation on kpop idols who will likely never be able to express their true selves. This is what we have to rely on, the subtle hints and small comments which may, or may not, bely something deeper. Obviously I can't say with certainty that Jimin is gay, or genderfluid, or whatever, but I can say how I feel based on those small glimpses we are allowed and what I recognize. Me saying that he presents more femininely is not based on his innate birth characteristics, but comments and choices that he has made in recent years that draw a significant contrast to his presentation in 2013-2014 when he and the other members have said he was uncomfortable with himself. The only reason I brought up Jimin's attraction to the interviewer, Usher, etc. is because those really are the only men I can say I've witnessed signs of him being attracted to, which someone else had asked. It's not my place to decide what is and isn't racist, but I don't want those interactions to be discounted just because of some ignorant fans calling it a fetish.

I realize I was quoting you so it seemed like I was attacking you specifically, but that wasn't my intention. Tone gets lost so I probably sounded more harsh than I meant to. Sorry As for Jimin liking black guys, he's reacted similarly to Offset and some others I can't remember off the top of my head. (*AND USHER mans literally woofed when they were talking about him, he absolutely has a crush) I absolutely see your point, but a lot of black armys make the same jokes and I also don't think it's right to say it's a fetish, like it's something out of the ordinary. I'm not saying he ONLY likes black men btw Thanks this is probably a better way of putting what I mean. So much of this thread's speculation seems to me to be based on skinship and fanservice or "sus" moments that really aren't a big deal. From my perspective, I trust my instincts and knowledge of queer people irl over interactions happening in front of a camera which may or may not be for the fans' benefit. I don't even think all of it is stereotyping, we in the LGBT community can often recognize each other even if it goes unsaid, no? So I don't think there's anything wrong with making assumptions based on behaviour, when there are common characteristics shared by many gay men to support it. Not all gay idols are going to be willing to make hints about their sexuality, but that doesn't make them straight by default. And I do agree with the response to your last statement, Sehun has some of the most compelling 'receipts' I've seen for anyone because his bandmates basically TOLD us he's not interested in women, and not just as a way to tease him.

Also yes Jimin's thing for black guys has been grossly made into a joke but if you look at the common threads of his interactions with handsome black men in the industry it's clear that's honestly just his type lmao

You mean when he was 16? That means nothing. I literally know more gay guys who had girlfriends in high school than those that didn't - and I was in a musical theatre program in an American high school. Imagine what societal pressures there are for a boy from Busan who I'm sure is already getting side-eyed for studying contemporary dance. I would honestly be more surprised if he didn't have a gf, whether they were friends or if she was meant to cover something up. I've consumed a lot of BTS content and I've genuinely never seen evidence of Jimin being legitimately attracted to women after say, 2015. We ALL know he went through some serious changes at that point in his life - he even said he "grew and realized so many things" after he shed the masculine persona of their debut years. Jimin is so stereotypically gay it seems to me a lot of people want to call him bisexual or "just flirty" because it would seem tacky or reliant on stereotypes to say otherwise. But I have no problem calling a spade a spade - Jimin is increasingly feminine and fey the more he grows comfortable and happy with himself, and I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging the simplest explanation as to why, in addition the attraction he's shown towards men. To be honest it reads as effemophobia sometimes. If he gives eyes to a man, he's just flirting because he's a Libra and it doesn't mean anything. If he looks at a female performer for more than 10 seconds he wants to fuck her. Like, what? Also this is not directed at you specifically op, just expressing general frustration. Sorry if this response seems aggro I just genuinely don't understand how people can argue against what is, to me, incredibly obvious.

Funny that I saw this tweet literally five minutes before this haha Aside from flirting with male fans, that's about it from what I personally have seen. But I haven't really seen "receipts" for him being attracted to women either, so my assumptions are based on... pretty much his entire vibe. I mean as previously discussed it's probably discouraged for them to show attraction to ANYONE aside from the light flirting they do with fans as part of the job, so I feel like the same could be said about almost any other member

gowon i'm undecided on but olivia hye is definitely sus to me

Yeah i've noticed that too. And yes yeonjun letting kai call him "noona," apparently he's made statements about gender presentation from what i remember? And some of the clothes he's worn are very androgynous. Idk but i do get a gnc vibe from him I think shows probably want to make it look like their cohosts have chemistry and friendly flirting is an easy way to do that

I don't follow them enough to tell but from what I've concluded: onehallyu thinks he's straight and does a lot of fan service, and Twitter thinks he's gay. But whatever his sexuality yeonjun definitely has some gender stuff going on which I respect I could seen Hueningkai and definitely Soobin. Not that they're related but interesting that a recent poll of korean gay men's top 10 favorite male idols had jin at #5, and soobin supposedly loves him lol

Oh I definitely don't think they're all straight! There are at least 3 or 4 members (maybe 5, but that's unrealistic :/) I think are def gay and bi. I just think sometimes people misinterpret skinship as evidence of attraction, which is not the case. It also seems to me like some things are for the camera, and not real, and some truly are friends messing around with each other. This is my perspective as an american but i know straight guys who joke about each other's dicks all the time. But i know gay guys who do that too! I think it can be hard to tell true intentions with a lot of groups, especially ones who may or may not actually get along off camera, but here's what i think about BTS specifically: I do think they are genuinely friends and tease each other like friends do. A lot of their "sus" moments may be exaggerated, but i believe there's genuine affection behind it, albeit platonic. Re: the specific video of JK pushing the stick all up on Jin's dick, i don't see anything "gay" about it, just JK teasing as he is wont to do (ESPECIALLY to Jin). I also am very much in the minority bc I think JK and Jin are the straightest members in the group, so that partially informs my opinion. But, JK has also shoved long pointed objects up the buttcracks of other members, including ones i believe are gay. So I think it's just the maknae being the maknae playing around. And that's probably the case for other groups, too. I'm not Korean so I can't say what is or isn't odd for that culture, but i don't see it as inappropriate or gay at all. (In reference your question about "why do they give little receipts" i think some idols are testing the limits of what is an isn't acceptable and I really respect them for that, because it can be dangerous. And we can only hope that queerness continues to be destigmatized in whatever small ways it can as time goes on. But i do not think that skinship or fanservice inherently = representation) Edit: i realized i didn't even talk about straight guys who do fanservice; for them i think it's just part of the job

This is the thing we have to remember about these moments; we aren't talking about a couple of random young guys, these are idols who know when and how to act on camera and that informs the way they behave.

Namjoon bicon wbk

Yeah that's fair and I don't think anyone takes those as serious statements of their sexuality, just lgbt fans going "omg bts bicons!" It's more like a fandom joke like calling jk a lesbian

Yeah, that really disappointed me as well. I'm probably (definitely) biased, but I try to cut him some slack considering he is now the leader of a international boy group contributing a not-insignificant chunk of the country's GDP. He's stuck between his role as company man and spokesperson for the BTS brand and everything that comes with it, and the side of him that's interested in advocacy and social justice. The Kim Namjoon who made that tweet about Same Love in 2013, when no one had even heard of Bangtan Sonyeondan and he didn't really have anything to lose by shaking the table, is not the same Kim Namjoon of today, or 2018 for that matter. While Yoongi is also a representative of the BTS brand, he isn't the leader, and he's known for more edgy material in his independent projects. So yeah, it sucks, and I wish he hadn't been so squirrely about it. But I can't imagine what kind of position he's in and the backdoor politics at play that prevent him from really speaking his mind. He still makes an effort to include all types of love in interviews and even gender identity in his UN speech, so I can't help but give him credit for that.

Here's a question: would you guys consider 'skinship' breaking over into the 'queerbait' category if it's being used by the company for marketing purposes? Ex. since Jikook was mentioned and it made me think of it, the infamous Rose Bowl ear nibble earning an HD clip in the trailer for BTS' Memories of 2019 DVD