Pyron

Sadly this is normal with any fandom or "tribe". They will have those more extreme members who are too invested (or invested in the wrong way) in their fandom. We think them as crazy or infantile, but behind the keyboard it can be just a normal person. They all use and abuse social media to spew their rhetoric nonsense. They all forget that Kpop or any hobby is just for fun. They feel like their favs are being attacked and go to offensive to others and probably will justify their behavior as defensive. All we can do is call out on their bullshit and report their offensive behavior.

It's sad, but that's how Korean TV stations will act to "defend" themselves. Any source of controversy, they will edit off anything from their shows no matter how minor it is. Nothing much we can do besides pray and send wishes (and maybe some pressure to the companies, try not be too emotional). It's a feel bad situation for fans, the girls, and staff.

I left home without closing the front door. Luckily nothing happened.

They are all beautiful in general. I guess if I just look for eyes I'd go for Jihyo, Dahyun, and Momo. They are all easy on our eyes.

Cool. Now being more specific about it, I'm not well-versed on that as I avoid it due to how it is discussed in the cyberspace. I think it's a valid topic otherwise. I may just look for weak argumentation (not so much in defending or attacking it per se as I don't have a strong opinion or know-how on that), so you can make changes to it.

Yeah, I'm very pedantic about it. I will try to be more concise. I do agree that companies will purposely seek loyalty and obsession to fans. There are lot of back door deals as well. But at front they can't really support this particular activity. I think sasaeng behavior is a different thing from fan war. They partake in that and are source for a lot of that I imagine, but it seems a different issue for me. They would just be happy if their fandom would play friendly with others and still spend tons on them. I don't think companies go about like a zero sum war. Fandom can be individual too. Of course, if you name yourself part of an organized one or just giving yourself a label, sure it will become part of that group. I'm fan of groups and have bias, but I don't wanna identify myself to a named fandom. We are a quiet minority, but we exist. I do agree with your points. That's a feature of fandom/tribe in general. However, I'm more specific about the group behavior fueled by this. I know it's inevitable in general, but at the same time I think as we are becoming more aware of the impact of social media and this particular form of tribalism behavior, so maybe it may not become inevitable. There were papers about tribalism behavior in the past. However, I think the discussion of how to counter/control/avoid this is quite new and fueled by the alarming rise of nationalism for instance, so maybe as we become more aware, moderation may actually be more common in fandom as well no matter how much obsession and loyalty factor in. I may be wrong, but I wanna be optimist about it. I can see fan wars be "fun" activities. In the past I partook in console fan wars and soccer rivalries and so on. I don't see it just as negative. However, for today's Kpop I don't see gains from that per se. It seems like a symptom or an after thought that may not be properly used for gains for the artists. Maybe a group/company may show up and be upfront about talking shit about other groups. Who knows. It would be unique.

Could you elaborate on your argumentation; otherwise, it's hard to discuss just opinion on things. I guess you are only focused on female gg stans with feminism. Still feminism is very broad and you need to define the link between the two for discussion. " -They are not useful " In what sense? Not useful for feminism? "-They are an example of white feminism in a nutshell " Again in what sense? Also, I think you should start with definitions. What do you mean by white feminism or even feminism in general? A lot of people have very distinct views and definitions on that. If you aren't clear on what specifically you wanna discuss, it's kinda hard to make argumentation (at least for your objective in making a paper) for such a general topic even if you tie it with gg fans. " -Gay men invading women safe space- especially women of color- " I don't quite get the connection with the topic at large. Is it a take on identity politics or the feminist view on this? I know you want argumentation, but I have to start with a critic on your approach in this thread. Maybe samples of your argumentation or parts you see you have problems could be better. Dunno how formal is this paper. Citations may be needed as well.

Of course I don't doubt more rabid fans will shell more money and promote their faves. However, I don't think fan wars are part of that. You can be loyal and even obsessive about something. It's more a symptom of defensiveness from tribalism than something that can be marketed. Once you identify yourself to a label, your individuality may be lost in this fan war group behavior. At least not for the image Kpop in general is going for. Sure, in metal and rap this is more common, but not in today's Kpop. I don't see any group provoking other groups. I see the opposite behavior more often. At the same time it also can be negative due to damaging image cause indirectly by fanwars due to rumor spreading and bad public perception. For instance, a lot of people may not get into some fandom or check some hobby due to the fans like anime, a product, or whatever thing that evokes obsession. I'm pretty sure a lot of people won't touch Kpop or a group in particular if they see rabid behavior of fandoms fighting it out. Now I'm not saying companies control the image of the fandom. After all this is an independent association. It's the same as organized cheer squads in soccer and so on. Soccer companies can't control the criminal activities of these and for sure they don't incite them even if they may benefit from them. I'm more specific about the way they manage their image and in that nothing evoke this particular antagonistic/defensive behavior. Fanwar is a feature of fandoms, sure, but no company is trying to tap that and inciting it for some dubious gains. Not like rivalry in soccer or Sechkies x HOT. The maximum may be companies may throw a jab, but even there they are very amicable with each other. Companies can't fight against this behavior because they can't provoke their own customer base. They depends more on fan engagement, so they will avoid confrontation naturally. Now support of sasaeng behavior seems more like they can't do much about it unless they break the law. After that said support is negated. They want the loyalty/money, not the bad behavior. The bad behavior may come with the package, but it's not what they want. It's a fine balance which a lot of companies can't manage properly. Also, companies can't avoid all staff back door business as well. Sure you see some conscious choice to fuel this behavior in some cases, but for this generation I don't see it. Pretty sure most groups and their companies are not for fueling fanwars to acquire fan engagement. They may not publicly criticize this behavior because they don't wanna rattle their customer base, but at the same time I don't see them inciting their fans to go for this behavior. Now I think this fanwar behavior is natural, but at the same time as individual we are not bound by that. Once we see it for what it is, we can choose what to do with it. One can just rationalize it and justify it, one can try fight it and be more rational about it, or double down in one way or the other. Sadly most will not even reach this point of recognizing that their this and partake in such group behavior. Now some multi-fans or Kpop fans in general may pick a side or help argumentation if it's rational to them to do so, but at the same time some may choose to not become entrenched and still maintain some level of neutrality or moderation. Of course in the cyber space it's very hard to distinguish rationality with the noise caused by rabid people. Defending your fav is fine and normal. I'm not talking about this. Fan war isn't just defending your fav. It's more a defensive entrenchment that will cause people go to the offensive. For these rabid people, they think they are defending as they feel their favs are threatened (and by proxy them as they project much of their dedication to their fans). Still we are talking about fanwar behavior. I think loyalty and obsession are separated from that. Fanwar is more a group behavior. Of course I'm not assuming any defensive argument or criticism as fanwar. A lot of them can be warranted and needed to be said although it can all become blurry as rabid fans will use these as tools to further their own narratives. Now going back to the original discussion, I think it's hard to quantify benefits and cons of this for the group. Fanwars can be a fun activity for those who partake in them as well. Rivalry is a thing, but in terms of some tangible value, I think it seems more potentially harmful than beneficial. In metal for instance, some groups who partake in this activities got burned by these in the end and both groups ended up with loss of brand reputation. I don't see much cases of real gain. Sure more fan "engagements", but how much it really translated in $$$ seems a different story.

The only benefit would be if it trickles down to their pockets. If it generates some form of hype that would affect sales, sure, but I think for the most part it's just a waste of energy and actually it could be potentially damaging to the brand name of the group via spreading false rumors or negative public perception of the fandom affecting the group as well. We are just discussing if it's beneficial to the group, not if it's part of the tribalism behavior that can arise from fandom or if it's good for the fandom to participate in one. We can discuss the benefits. We can discuss tangible benefits and cons for the group without going into a tangent. For the groups/artists, in pratical terms they only care about increasing their fame and fortune. Part of today's Kpop image is its cleanliness. Getting into fanwar is something they wouldn't want as it is counterproductive to further that image. It's not like rapper wars. Maybe it was common for first and maybe second generation (like Sechskies x HOT of the past) and it may have been part of their image making, but for newer groups this is clearly not the case and probably something they actively would avoid. For the groups, they rather have a friendly relationship. Now going into a tangent about the idea of being part of fandom culture. I'm actually not that sure as something that should be viewed as natural or inevitable. I think it's only part of the fandom if it reaches a tribalism level which is often the case. I can accept this. However, I think there is counter movement against this form of behavior as well. Multi fandom is a counter point (or accepting Kpop in general) to this and as more people are OK in embracing ideas/hobbies/whatever as a whole instead of entrenching in just one of these, this behavior could become less and less accepted and normalized. The problem is moderating behavior is often just drowned by the noise caused by extremist behavior and eventually accepted by conformity.

They should disband their corrupt executives...

If it's a serious mental disorder maybe I'd forgive too, but there are lot of made up mental disorder diagnosis, so hopefully it's not the case. Still the family is responsible for this sick individual and should receive some punishment even if it's lenient. Clearly individuals with serious mental disorder shouldn't be interacting with others on internet this way. if it's just a "minor" disorder, the individual should still be responsible regardless (it should have been specified instead of using this umbrella term). Even real lunatics don't get away easily from justice.

I think a couple of similar cases happened in the US as well (although it's on State level only). Tokyo city also had some peeve with depiction of "young appearance" when a pretty conservative faction was in power. I think it's a bit complicated matter, but at the same time you don't wanna give fuel to censorship because they tend to judge content with a broad blunt tool and usually are very arbitrary (which was the case in Tokyo arbitrarily tagging some mangas 18+). Enforcement could become costly for such a no-crime activity. I think almost everything should be fair game except blatant hatred expression towards a group. Child abuse is something that should be eradicated, but focusing on this particular problem of comics, mangas, and so on seem a grossly waste of time and resources that could be better used elsewhere. In the end enforcers know it's a waste and they are just paying lip service and they will just judge it arbitrarily.

big yikes...

Waste of time for petitioners. It just adds more noise from other real problems. The stations would do that anyway as they avoid anything considered scandalous and they have their own petty disputes.

MNET executive asses will not be touched. The CEOs of the agencies involved may just get a fine if anything at all. The fall of this PD means nothing in the end. Another PD will take his place and they will do things less stupidly and blatantly. Business will resume as usual as money keeps flowing in.

Hope the fans keep reporting him, so JYP staff knows whats up. These type of delusional stalkers are just too unpredictable. About law, I guess most places will just wait and see. I think nothing can be done unless he specifically says something incriminating, actually attempt a crime, or the stalked victim initiate some process. He can be creepy and delusional all he wants if nothing of these happens. There are some cyberstalking resources in the US, but dunno if fans can tip him off for similar resources in Germany and SK in behave of her. I guess if enough people give a try, they may do something about it before things escalate further.

It's just a feel bad situation.

If it's just unusual food, I guess chicken brain. It tasted nice. Insect dish like chapulines. Also, it tastes fine.

I don't think so at this point. Having reputation being tarnished is probably enough punishment unless there are real proof of collusion (I mean usable proof besides circumstantial one), but I think most where underage and they may have no choice in the matter, dunno if it would fly at court anyway. What would be better is to handsomely compensate the affected trainees financially. I don't think trying to half ass promote them is good for them either. They should just get the money and maybe the can use it for this purposes if they wish so. Most of them probably moved on from that already. Just a good amount of compensation should suffice. Also the voters should be compensated. All the companies involved got a pretty money for all this, so they should suffer in their pockets.

I think it doesn't matter much as any award is rigged in some form. If they were using just popular vote like Produce, sure, they should be penalized. However, if they add an "expert" panel voting, it doesn't matter. They can give the award to whoever they want in the end no matter the weight of the popular vote and they don't even need to touch up the popular votes to achieve that. Also, some of the voters abuse the system as well, so it's sorta a give and take situation. Awards by nature aren't clear business at top level anywhere. There are always special interests behind the scenes and nobody should be at the illusion that any award is 100% fair. Unless it's something really blatant (which probably would be pretty hard to prove unless someone exposes it), no investigation is warranted even thou it's clear that it's rigged.

I lived in a time when this was starting to be frown upon by the masses and the legal age was 14. I had an acquaintance who where close to his 30s dating a 17 years old and some time later switched to a 16 years old. I found it repugnant at the time, but it wasn't illegal. I think the law changed the legal age to 18 thankfully.

That's my everyday

On Steam none. Every game I buy there I will play. I don't fall for those promotions. Now physical games are a different story. I was kinda a collector, so I bought more games than I could play with.

I'm a bit sad that only Kim Jongmin is back, but at the same I welcome the new blood. I'm fine with the choices.

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