Bushi

It's very easy for people to start throwing racism around in order to cut off any scrutiny of what is a deeply misogynistic society. That's not invention, it's fact. The SK school system even has 'rape may be the consequence of you not doing what the male expects on a date' in one publication posted here. The damn school system fgs! All the recent Burning Sun mess, the Nth Room, the public toilet upskirting, and then drama about an Olympian wearing her hair short because it upset men in SK.... Of course there are progressive, decent, nice, chilled SK men. Of course there are inherently wonderful Koreans who know right from wrong. But as a society, with its rules passed down a traditional masculine-centric model, it's hardwired to be skewed towards men's pleasure. Western society was too. Women and minority groups had to fight like hell to be heard, and recognised as human beings. It's only in the last 20 years that the west has mostly binned being openly sexist, and is more progressive on the LGBT front. And even then it's not perfect. Entertainment, k-pop, the average decent, progressive young South Korean on the street, doesn't even scratch how deeply misogynistic its wider society is. Even k-pop darlings like BTS began on pretty shaky misogynistic grounds. Can you imagine Taehyung these days saying the sorts of innocently-meant/unworldly yet ingrained pretty misogynistic ideals he rattled off 6-7 years ago? All those male idols wanting an arm candy cook and brow mopper, with 35 cm length hair and small hands, etc. Absolute bullcaka, honestly.

I was just on my way with this. Poor Jk. Cancelled in Pakistan for 'promoting homosexuality,' you've hit the big time, lads. In fairness, Jungkook's obsession with smacking male butt is probably on the radar of every downlow mullah in Pakistan by now.

Dunno how others feel but I'm not much for these sorts of idol social media crumbs, tbh. I don't mean you posting it here I mean when they do it. It's equally likely that a staff member's written it. It's cute and I get the double-entendre you're wondering about. But it's hard to quantify or just take it at face value that 'he' is making an overture at the ladies. Tbh I think these sorts of posts are just gooey candy to appeal to a wide audience. It's a nice inclusive way of making everyone feel loved.

Human nature. Sometimes there's no apparent 'logic,' you just want that cage opening. Risking it all, I believe is the phrase. It'll be someone with a Plan B and C though.

O/T but relevant: please spend a moment if you can to read up on the work of SK's amazing DDing Dong Rainbow Teen Safe Space charity, doing such good things for LGBT youth in the country. I'm continuously amazed that this centre struggles for funding year on year when all the big K-pop agencies and CEOs rake in a fortune every day. There's a donation box at the bottom of the page if you fancy chipping in. https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/rainbow-teen-safe-space/updates/?subid=175512&rf=progrept15426_175512&utm_campaign=Progress+Report&utm_content=Project+Report%3A+DDing+Dong+(Rainbow+Teen+Safe+Space)+29th+letter&utm_source=email2.globalgiving.org&utm_medium=email

It's a constant battle between what we think we see in our happy fandoms, and the reality for able bodied young males in SK. As BTS have grown up and gone through many different phases, concept shifts and personal developments, their general awareness has broadened. But just because they dress in jeans and tees, and Namjoon could buy out half his hometown and turn it into a fun palace, it doesn't mean they're not subject to the wider confines and biases of what is still a deeply conservative society in South Korea. I keep an eye on the politics, and the lawmakers and factions are hardcore. Outside the bubble of K-pop and without money it's a tough, unforgiving world out there. They face a prejudiced legal and social framework, potential ingrained homophobia from within their families and the pressure to marry and have as many babies as possible in a system where the birth rate is super low. You're correct. There's not much reason for male idols to come out publicly in SK, even at top level, without jeopardising something. But then perhaps they don't have to stay in SK? Or if so, keep the head down and bed in for the long haul, Key or Jo Kwon style, dropping breadcrumbs without ever making it official. There's no easy answer anywhere on more 'liberal' planet Earth, but especially in SK. It has many good qualities but it's also a hierarchical, money-and-influence driven, bloodline-obsessed and highly politicised society. The mainstream have little to no time for LGBT. Coming out there is no doubt a world of pain and grief, compounded by intense home fandoms (themselves cultivated to be over-protective, and mostly made up of straight girls/women). And it probably explains why so few male idols don't publicly come out. But for all that you know I still have a feeling someone at top level will come out. Sooner or later someone will be THAT herd buffalo which is all, "Nah screw it, I'll go first," and jumps in the river.

Felix. In response to someone who said his dance display was sus. Hong Kong = see Suga's Cypher verse for ongoing fandom mental gymnastics over its true meaning. Lol. So what chanced do less famous idols have of being believed about possible lgbt refs, when the top ones mostly get brushed off?

Not suspicious at all. He practically said he's bi ages ago. It's just that people treat it as a haha funny joke or that they've misheard 'Hong Kong' as 'bing bong,' etc. Happens all the time.

There's a comment that says it was from a wedding. To give it some context they're dressed up and there are people around filming them so they're clearly horsing around and unbothered. Still, he looks comfortable doesn't he. Good old Jackson.

From everything I've seen of the South Korean idol scene, it's precisely because they laugh at, mock and dismiss gay people that LGBT have been able to hide in plain sight. Outside of actual Korean LGBT who live it, they treat it as one big joke. Maybe not now so much but even a few years ago. You get to say these things because few take it seriously or afford it any respect. Gays are society's jokes who often end up in mental asylums to be straightened out. Holland's own friend recently went through it when he came out to his family, and this is modern South Korea. It can still be hard for people in the west to be out. I can't even imagine what people who have an entire country's system set up to fail them as LGBT people must be like. Which is why I keep an open mind.

Duplicate post.

There's a real Chanyeol haters club on here, lol. Shrugs. It's no skin off my nose if he gets thrown under the bus for being a bad guy if indeed he is. But as you say, there's also plenty of bullshit flying around. The legal action implies he's at least bothering to defend himself of some of the gossip doing the rounds. It can take its course and we'll see what occurs. As for Heechul, the other name that crops up when 'sleaze' is implied, I find him to be pretty silly but also clever and calculating. He's an old hand at playing the house cards, lol. I wouldn't want to put bets on his actual sexuality (jury's still out for me on that), and in fairness he has had a lot of 'gay inference' dumped on him by certain insistent onlookers over the years. But he's sorta played up to it too, when it suited. He seems to me quite a complex character under the goofy exterior.

Spoilered as O/T.

I don't think there are that many here doing this. Maybe the odd commenter. Such conversation tends to be in a larger contextual framework. He likes LGBT songs and he hangs with... and he's expressed this and that re: LGBT, etc. It's far more often part of a bigger picture that people notice about an idol. An ongoing pattern, if you like.

You can clown all you want but you show your cowardly laziness and that's all. I'll continue to speak as I see. You won't clown me away.

Exactly, he's simply here due to his own words/actions. I'm not invasive and rude enough to go and hound him in private, or stand outside his agency and wail. Which incidentally, tons of his straight fangirls do on a daily basis. Or demand he shares his sexuality with me and the world on a Vlive. We talk about him on a gay thread because of his very gay past actions and inferences. Be they just him being playful, or it having some real merit. That's on him, not us.

1. That's fair enough. I respect that. But can anyone, hand on heart, say that that 'question' wasn't a pre selected one set up by his agency or that he wasn't expecting it? Because I can't. It could have been genuine and innocently asked by a fan. Or posed by his manager/team, because someone wanted it addressed for image purposes. How can we know for sure? Who would even tell anyone? 2. He's part of a Korean supergroup which is naturally cherished at home and across Asia, and whose fans want it to do so well they literally rush to cover up or silence anything seen as potentially 'career damaging' to their 'best boy.' That's why he's been able to get away with it all these years. He's been babied and over protected by his fans since he joined EXO. And he's always maintained a sort of slick, clean, faultless profile. Aside from a few minor incidents, that car thing, and lots of unverified rumours, he's not the worst idol offender. Someone managed to completely unsing all his trips with Chefsuke though, whatever that was about. I remember at the time people largely wrote Chefsuke off because he was 'old' and 'unnattractive' - typical fangirl butthurt logic when something unexplainable threatens, and so he was just ignored. In the west it was pretty much an open secret that Harry Styles was dating dj Nick Grimshaw for years, but it never got traction because Harry's own fans and ultras refused to give it any credence. Preferring the Larry fantasy or that he was bedding tons of women. Everyone in Shoreditch knew though. The only comparison I'm drawing is that fans can control the narrative with what they choose to believe, en masse. And there is no more regimented and organised fandoms than in K-pop. Coming from vast, vast swathes of overprotective, mostly female fans brought up on mostly conservative values. Of course many of them dream of being Sehun's girlfriend, that's the whole point of these groups whether people admit it or not. Money and fantasy = good for the economy. I'm not saying he is definitely gay or trying to convince anyone. I don't know for sure. Only he knows. His sexuality doesn't have to be defined/fixed/decided. He can be who and what he wants. But ultimately he's said and done those things and our discussion of it is purely in response to his own words and actions. That's why he's ended up here. Because of his own actions, not things we pulled out of our collective arse. This Regina person is ranting at the wrong people. She needs to go and take it up with Sehun as to why he said and did those things. There's no point getting upset with us. We're just discussing him now and then. Musing, if you will. But I guarantee none of us are outside his door hassling him, he has Korean sasaeng lunatics for that. She should go and kvetch at them, the actual harm doers.

I could respond, of course, but I'll tell you what I'm not doing. For the sake of mine and others sanity. I'm not doing stretched out arguments on here that go back and forth for pages with no end and no resolve. And that just piss everyone else off. If you want to fight for Jimin's soul and get deeply offended on his behalf go take it up with his agency. The line is drawn for me. ________________________________ On another note, did anyone manage to find anything out about Kingdom? I like them and someone was asking if there was any gossip on them a few pages back.

Fairly simple really, imo. Company crafted their images, said "Jump!" and fans/onlookers said: 'How high?" Jimin happens to be a dancer, an art form still primarily interpreted as feminine in many cultures. Add to that his light and airy voice, his gentle manners and nature, his coyness, etc. He does seem a genuinely sweet person. People the world over associate sweetness as a more female trait, rightly or wrongly. For me the more interesting ones in BTS are the older end. But rappers esp. are never going to be marketed as soft and gentle swans, are they? Yoongi's not a natural dancer, his voice is like a tuba, and the 'tsundere' thing was pushed early on. Even though we know stereotypes can mean zip in reality. Yoongi does have some feminine traits and he looks very refined in makeup, probably the most out of any of them imo. But he's obviously 'male looking' out of it. They all are. Certainly he is as gentle as Jimin in his own way. But his public image has been moulded differently by himself/the company. And it's public image that sticks, because we don't get to see much of their daily private lives. Does any of this have any bearing on actual sexuality? Of course not. They could all be anything. And away from the cameras they will be. None of them are walking the streets in fancy photoshoot outfits and hairstyles by choice in their free time. We see that from V Lives and airports. But then neither are most drag queens, if we're going to compare industry notes. BH did nothing to macho Jimin's image up as time went on, and so the 'gentle, femme' persona has stuck for large (vocal) sections of fandom. Having said that he seems to be quite settled with his publicly genderfluid direction, afaics. Is he clamouring to be butched up when the cameras are off? Who knows. But I suspect not. He seems to have hit a plateau of contentment. At least outwardly.

Ladies, this isn't the thread. Please.

Aww, thanks for this, I love Kingdom.

Well, well, well.

I must admit, JK is the one in BTS I find hardest to read. Then Jin. The rest I can speculatively see as having enough consistent/historical LGBT receipts to have one arguable foot (at least) on the rainbow spectrum. A few members more convincingly than others. Bit of a ramble under the cut. Read only if you give half a toss about my thoughts on JK.

The top two look like 400 year old gifs of JK looking at boobs perhaps and Taehyung being Taehyung. Also likely knowing there's a camera pointing at him. Plus more recent stuff showing idols who literally have to live cheek by jowl most hours of the day, getting occasionally peed at each other. Or hamming it up for the fans/cameras. I think it's supposed to convince everyone that there's no way these two can be anything other than straight. Which, that may be. I fully advocate the open mind policy. But a few carefully selected, and in some cases, ancient, gifs, don't really add up to a necessarily full picture. A lot is also down to individual interpretation. Someone sees a sexual gesture in Taehyung towards his stylist. I just see him acting out in a comfortable environment and maybe rebelling a little. It wouldn't be the first time he's pulled faces at being dressed by someone else.

Crucially, we as observers don't know how well these people know each other. Behind the scenes they could be good buddies or move in the same circles. So their responses may be heightened and more excited at seeing people they know and like. I'm not downplaying his response to Hwasa. It could well be lustful and excited, but we're just not in his head to necessarily know where the boundaries between friendly/intimate, professional, sexual, etc, between idols in the same industry begins and ends. To me, if people are going to lend reasonable credence to his Hwasa reaction (which I have no objection to) then surely Jimin In Malta should be afforded the same assumptions? The look back at that guy/guys in the street, which was not subject to idol studio/concert environment, was equally as interesting. And as far as passersby went, just a matter of chance, a unique variable on the night.