Bushi

They are hiding something. But it's none of the trendy ships. That's distraction fluff.

There's quite a serious problem in parts of Japanese society where some men are now so psychologically enmeshed in socially-acceptable fantasy/anime worlds that real adult women are not enough and inferior to their fantasy girlfriends. I watched a documentary in which one young man 'married' his life-sized Sailor Moon doll. Ceremony, parents, workmates, cake, outfits, flowers, the whole ball of wax. He talks to and washes her, dresses her, props her up around his tiny flat, sleeps with her, etc. A nice, friendly young lady who he works with drops by from time to time to check in on him and have a chat. He doesn't notice her. He's a lost soul. And he's by no means an anomaly. Another one married a hologram. There are numerous schoolgirl cafes, where men go to 'talk' to young girls dressed up as REALLY young girls. It's bloodyfuckingridiculous. But it's totally fine in their city culture because it's 'heterosexual.' The raging schoolgirl paedo obsessions are heterosexual, and the authorities turn a blind eye to it all, as their actual physical crime rate is said to be so low. I can't even imagine how they start to tackle LGBT issues at govt. level when so many immature (yet grown) working men are steeped in these strange, made up, semi-erotic, semi action-adventure scapes. And that's o/c quite aside from traditional, ingrained homophobia. Bizarrely enough though, I still think Japan is likely to be more open and even legalise aspects of LGBT rights, such as gay marriage, long before South Korea does. There is good work going on for LGBT in all the East Asian countries via activists and community groups, but they're really up against it.

Whut? Where've you been?

Or you could maybe stop blanket judging 'westerners' as one mass of like minds. As stated, not everyone here is western. And nobody has a perfect country. We all come at things from our own cultural setting but many do try and be objective, taking someone else's sensitivities into account. We're from countries which have variously evolved quite well regarding LGBT rights, are beginning the process, or are not even at the starting gate yet. But we are talking about k-pop, South Korea, and its application of rights and wrongs towards its own LGBT people. And it's not looking good, on any level, so far. It'd give nobody in their right mind a sense of superiority to have to discuss a country which is so progressive in many ways, tech, business, etc, but so socially backwards that LGBT are still taken to asylums by their parents. Where the suicide rate is sky high, where idol deaths from bullying are hushed up out of familial shame, and the bullies allowed to move on unchecked. Where it's common to be treated as if having a mental illness for being LGBT, and where certain school textbooks tell girls to expect 'consequences' if they don't give boys 'what they want.' Where a country's ingrained obsession with Korean pure bloodlines, racism, or race issues towards outsiders ('we can smell your race' - YT video, unreal!) and hierarchies rule everything behind the gloss of entertainment. All this runs alongside a system that thinks laughing at gay people, using fanservice and fantasy big-ship couplings, are viable and honourable ways of draining western, and other, pockets. This is a system, like any western entertainment system, that utilises smokescreens and lies to make money. And which is more than happy to allow its LGBT idols to be thrown under the bus for South Korea's global image. BTS for example, as lovely as they are, are now basically government shills, sent out to promote everything from Korean cider to recliners. And whose company thinks nothing of invading their private bedroom sleeping time. Are you kidding me! You're not going to get away with that OTT creepy, invasive shit in the west without a fight. Fans shouldn't need to see that. A country where regular flaps are to be had on netizen websites if Taehyung appears to show real or perceived 'interest' in e. g., an American girl of European descent in a crowd. Where regular disgust or nope conversations take place at the thought of BTS members marrying outside the Korean race. Nevermind that one or more couldn't possibly be bi or gay. I've seen so, so much of this over the years. A tonne of SK-society online is just hopelessly obsessed, and often pretty rude, with their own stereotypes and assumptions, and I'm calling them on it. Why not? Yes, Korean social activists are great, and work super hard, but so too do western and other activists and advocates, who have helped to report to the wider world, largely in English (which many Koreans don't necessarily converse in at all) the many dire issues facing ordinary LGBT Koreans, and other minority groups there. It's been a team effort. So don't assume it's only a stare and point for shits and giggles session for 'westerners.' There are people that read these pages and who work seriously behind the scenes in positive ways that you'll never know. /

A lot of Larries moved over to K-pop. Notably to the BTS fandom but Stray Kids, NCT, and now Ateez. I think EXO's managed to avoid most of them.

I felt that Yoongi wasn't straight years ago when he whomp-whomped his way out of pocky with Tae. I've seen nothing to change my mind so far, and I'm not trying to define his sexuality. Just that I don't think he's 100% straight. But he's not someone who is flamboyant, acts up to gay stereotypes, or indulges in grandstanding for fans. I haven't changed my mind on Sehun either. The broader picture is almost never seen as important as the fans eye view of idols. But when the cameras switch off these men have to live in a deeply homophobic society, undertake military service and put up with quite insane levels of filial pressure. At a level the average non-Korean fan cannot even begin to comprehend.

What about a Telegram group?

It's cool. I know you didn't have ill intent. I know sometimes we all use words that just get handed down and perhaps meanings or inferences change over the years. Or it means something different from one place or generation to another. Just one of those things.

Whether Soobin is or isn't gay, please let's keep it respecful and understand the context. Young men dating/being attracted to their own age group is under no circumstances twinkery. The phrase has its roots in the western gay club circuit many decades ago, where older men ('chickenhawks') specifically honed in on young men (many barely legal, having their first foray into the gay club scene, hence 'twinks'). It's pretty seedy stuff in truth and a lot of young boys have been taken advantage of. Soobin doesn't need to be linked to that, even in jest.

Well, BTS have never had as much personal freedom to post online than they have these days. Especially now they have Weverse. Even then there are limits to what BTS will be able to say publicly, and of course you can rule nothing out. But given it's been a while since he's been seriously (and openly in the press) linked to someone, he looks to be using his new, way above-average freedoms in SK to express himself, imo. What I really like about Taehyung is that if he's straight he still has the saltiness of a thousand offended drag queens in his DNA. From Bighit producers to other members, fans and makeup artists, nobody gets away with it.

Well it's possible. But do you think he maybe just doesn't like having his movements dictated/controlled by a bunch of stalkers with the collective IQ of an underpants hamper? I think there's a good argument for anyone being annoyed about that. If it was me I personally would not react with a 'vomface' emoji if I had a real, intimate connection to this person and they meant something to me. I'd make my point without making it look as though I was totally grossed out by association. Even if it was aimed at the trolls, it still looks as if he's appalled by the linkage. Also, he may be splitting chips because, you know, he's dating someone else? And the whole sorry episode is just offensive to him and the actual partner?

I agree with a lot of your post, and I really like My Universe, not least because it's canny. Someone really knew how to read the room well, and steady a ship, all in one go. You just slightly lost me at the Grammys hardly recognising black artists. At the Grammys Beyonce wins about 8 categories every year, this year also Nas, John Legend, Megan Thee Stallion, Robert Glasper, Brittany Howard (of mixed heritage), etc, and numerous other wins and noms... Black artists do well at the Grammys. And the Grammys are varied - there are loads of music categoies for latin, gospel, jazz, r & b and world music categories, which are often more interesting than the main categories. I will defend the Grammys on that point, lol. Though it's clear that Latin music hasn't really hit the US mainstream in a big way or come onto the Grammys radar yet. But it may do, given that musical tastes shift every few years.

An interesting, thoughtful post. I can't detect if they're universally 'not comfortable' singing in English. Jungkook and RM seem fine, and Jungkook has a beautiful, articulate singing voice made for English imo. Hobi's come on in leaps and bounds and Jin and Jimin, who rarely use the language, can ennunciate very well with the lines they get. I do think it's a complicated issue and not easy to explain so please either bear with me or keep scrolling... So for me, it's less about language per se (since Japanese isn't Korean either, yet they put out far more full Japanese songs than full English ones) and more that BTS is an ever-increasingly US-chart focussed outfit. Perhaps at the behest of Bighit and their new LA office? The recent group full English breakfasts (as I call them) are not coming at deeper-thinking, indie or Coldplay/Ed Sheeran English-speaking audiences in Britain/Europe, Australia, or South Africa, for example. Or similar ones in the US. They're not fielding full English BTS songs with the intense, nuanced expression of Adele, or the many excellent English-speaking, non-commercial artists/bands, singing about despair, love, politics, depression, etc. 'Dynamite-era BTS' is specifically designed not to be deep, but fun, light and uplifting. Which is fine. But it is commercial stuff. Same as Drake. Same as Taylor, Beyonce and Gaga. It's someone's chosen formula to get Billboard placings and Grammy noms. And for some that will seem flat. It's also not very helpful to break out of a formulaic bubblegum pop persona, but again, that's where BTS seem to be at, comfortably or otherwise. It's entirely natural and normal for BTS to write and express themselves more succinctly in their native Korean. You'd expect that. And despite that I suspect a few members are pulling the wool at being unversed in English, they know there's no obligation from ARMY for them to sing in anything other than Korean. So their recent shift is clearly targeting something VERY specific elsewhere. And as we rarely see them in the English-speaking world outside the US, I think that speaks volumes. We've seen flashes of deeper, more meaningful, emotional stabs at English lyrics, such as Taehyung's 'Winter Bear' and the original 'Blue & Grey' which blew everyone away, but which didn't surface in the same format on an official record. A shame imo, as this would have shown his ability to grasp levels of melancholic, more mature English. Fundamentally the problem for BTS is that the more you focus on the US the more you're expected to assimilate into US pop-chart culture. Outside of ARMY keeping the Korean songs in the US charts for however long, there's no major buying appetite beyond their own fandom, in a music industry saturated by (now very commercial) US hip hop, rap and solo female culture, but which transcends one fandom.

Ultimately this is just a speculation thread, because none of us have direct access to idols and we all know that. Perhaps you could be helpful and go ask the wonderful, amazing South Korean government and wider society why life is so shit for LGBT people (including some idols), that their only options end up being a lifetime of lies/lavender marriages, suicide, or leaving to make a life abroad.

People have to realise that BTS, for whatever reason, are gunning for this Grammy. Maybe it's personal. Maybe it's political. But this seems to be their choice and they've been alluding to it for a long time now. People either accept that this is the plan with them, or don't. But that's clearly what they're targeting as a primary goal. Every artist has to move with whatever method and mode they think will propel them the furthest to stay relevant. I'm not keen on the Grammys myself. The last time it was any good was when Daft Punk won and they did that giant gay wedding. But I also feel it's not my place to say what I want or expect from BTS, musically or otherwise. I care not what language/s they choose to use, they sound good in all of them. I just go with the flow of whatever they want to do and wish the best for them. It won't last forever, so appreciate it whilst you have it imo.

Poor Tae, can't catch a break to mind his own private/free time in peace. No wonder he's throwing shapes. 'UGH' indeed.

Love would be a valid reason. Most of the risks people take in life are either over freedom, money, sex (the act of), territory, or love. I'm not saying this alleged pair are in that kind of relationship. Just that I think it'd be a valid reason for people to commit to relationships, against all advice.

Not to endorse the named pair as I don't know, and it's a new one to me. But in theory, although male-male k-pop pairings would have to be careful in SK, given that practically nobody outside a bunch of noisy but oft derided i-fans believe men can date men, why not? There's so many Asian netizens and straight i-fans debunking that non-het individuals can even exist in k-pop, you'd have a natural safety net to date under the radar. Nobody's gonna drop any best boys in the proverbial soup in South Korea. I see so many international fans being dismissed as gay fetishists when they speculate on Twitter. It can get quite aggressive. So theoretically, yes I think you could get away with interband dating. The level of protectiveness and immediate denial/shutdown by the faithful makes it possible imo. And I feel sure it has already happened several times already with past and present artists. There's respectable theory presented for much higher-profile idols in the same groups than the two named here. Jonghyun and Key, and Tony and Jaeduck being examples (possibles).

Many artists and groups do queerbait and get told to push agendas, imo. Their companies have all crunched the numbers, know the specific makeup of fandoms and where most sales are coming from. But there is also a disconnect between fandom and idols, and it's the void where reality slips over into fantasy. If you're marketing young men as viable, talented and sexually-interesting subjects for mostly young women, and you overegg it (which I personally think most K-pop companies/acts do/have done this), then naturally protective fans are conditioned to treat these guys as 'best boys' no matter what. They can queerbait and rub rights groups and neutral fans up as much as they want, and the bulk of the fandom will still say it's okay, it's just a cultural thing and suck it up. It continues precisely because fans allow it to. We are the ultimate employer of these groups. We pay their way. If people don't want to see queerbaiting and OTT fanservice, don't buy their products. Vote with your wallets, simple as. They'll soon come round if they start losing sales. Or you can support artists or groups who don't need to demean and mock LGBT (and gay acts) to gain popularity/sales.

The forum needs to allow emoji reactions to be visible to the user and not be anonymous. It'd cut down on the cowardly dump and run emojis imo. They do it liberally because there's no accountability atm. I mean it doesn't bother me getting negged personally, I've been here a while and have seen it all before but it's clearly offputting to newer members and people more sensitive to these things. So yes, link names to reactions imo, other forums do it.

Well the most obvious explanation was that they were doing what a lot of guys and gals do, and just got busted. The company would say 'nothing to see here' because they know most of ARMY hang on their every word as gospel. BH is there to rightly protect its artists but also to make money. But if it truly cared about ARMY it wouldn't put out multiple copies of the same product every time so that broke fans feel terrible if they don't have every format. Pure psychology. It's mere good fortune that BTS are genuinely nice guys who do care about their fans, and the wider world. Jk's no super saint, but I have a bit of a soft spot for him because he's under about 600 times more best boy pressure than the others.

Hmm, interesting discussion. I think Jk's always under a lot of pressure, and he's among those that I believe would maybe buckle and want out of BTS first, despite the public overtures and happy clappy 'ARMY is my life' stuff. Not based on what I want, but little flags thrown up by things he says. Like J-Hope or Tae. I'll freely admit that whilst I enjoy k-pop, the psychology of how it works and its fandom interactions with its artists interests me more these days. Firstly, BH's response to Jk's tattoo artist 'scandal' was to have Jk hide away, for her to (typically) take the vast amount of hate and heat, and then wheel him out during the dying embers for some kind of 'apology' around the time of New Zealand, looking suitably chastised/devastated, whilst admitting to nothing clear cut. Though fans and onlookers always know exactly what these non-specific admissions refer to. The amount of appeasement fandoms fall for to believe their best angels are superhuman and incapable of dating or being beyond reproach is staggering to me. As per the thread, might he mess around with Jimin, or any of the other BTS members? Other idols or civilians? Males and females? Sure, why not, it's not impossible. There are people out there that believe he was in a relationship with one of the rap line for a whole year around 2016. Others swear he's a player of women, with multiple hookups and flings. Nobody seems to know for sure. Which is as it should be. I think no matter what happened/happens, with same-sex interactions there's generally a company clean up and many fans are keen to muddy the waters of language/nuance differences. Jk's interactions with Jimin and Tae will be held up as equally valid by competing sections of ARMY, and then also by LGBT vs non-LGBT fans, which then causes ideological mini-wars. Neither side truly wins because we all know the company can come along and torpedo anything with a simple statement. Look at how all Yoongi's semi admissions and receipts regularly get ignored/wiped out as irrelevant, because he said 'my heart doesn't flutter for a man' in a funny, likely scripted skit on camera a few thousand years ago. But you can't fully dismiss it, because it's out there and may be valid. The mixed messaging is a useful PR tool most artists use, not just idols. (For the record, no, I don't think he's straight. ) For straight interactions there's the fan-created fantasy that idols can't possibly cheat on them and betray them. It's a very weird, intense, often deeply double standard. Fans effectively create their own arena of expectation and grief by building idols up in this genre to be untouchable and flawless. So when a thing like dating or 'not being straight' comes along, many don't have the emotional armour to handle it. Even though they say they do. Jungkook's going to be one of the biggest victims of this, whatever path he takes, as his popularity is so off the charts.

Some of it is for show, undoubtedly. Though they're all clearly comfortable in one another's presence up close. But I also think Jungkook is just hardcore not caring at all these days, and his huge popularity among worldwide fans means he can act up at work without much blowback. Since most of what he does is just taken to be cute/funny by fans. He rakes it in for his masters, so I think they're duty bound to allow him off the leash a bit extra. He's living the young man's dream right now, as best a minted idol in conservative SK can. And everybody indulged him anyway. HYBH (sorry, old habits die hard) seem to have stopped trying to hide/fuzz out his tattoos, that's totally gone down the toilet. He seems quite punk goth in his personal style, so a hickey probably isn't going to raise eyebrows at HQ. (I might talk about the layers of liberalism at HYBH at some point, because I think it's a definite thing and is quite unique to that company.) I'll wager it's far more 'Jungkook and girls' that causes genuine alarm at work. Given the meltdown the last (public) one caused. Jimin and his loose lips will be the least of the big chief's probs, imo. It'd probably be safer from a fandom pov if Jungkook was actually rolling around in bed with Jimin, and not a female idol or civilian. I can see Jungkook as being quite cheerfully bisexual at this point tbh, with few major hangups. At least that's the vibe I get, rightly or wrongly. For the people asking about his receipts, there is a mammoth master list of all BTS receipts over the years, compiled by a poster here, who periodically updates it. Fun fact: Everyone's favourite Hetty Het Namjoon's queer-receipt list is so whopperoo it proudly outshines every other member.

Sadly I reckon solo Ten's going to be firmly on the CCP's new popstars-to-blockstar list. There's no way old Winnie the Pooh is going to stand for Ten's delicious sassiness, sashaying across his screen in an off the shoulder velvet shirt and tight pants. Most of K-pop are going to have to don monks habits and recite ancient chants in the Chinese charts at this rate, surrounded by standing bells and singing bowls. Hmm, might be a niche market to capitalise on! Change seems to be afoot in China, as in big crackdown change, and it's not pleasant. SM will be well aware and might aim Ten much more at western audiences (where he's liked but still quite under the radar). Could be interesting if so.