ZRH23

I would much rather her focus on delivery chesty fullness in Bb4 - C#5 rather than squeeze her way up there, the upper 5th is not a kind place for you ma'am. Leave it to the bright, light sopranos lol. I wouldn't give a pass to anything below F#3. @0:52, that was the best attempt but I still hear a bit of an awkward shift between the E3 and the F#3, the rest don't really carry support or much tone. I'd say the F#3s are still okay for the most part tho.

He doesn’t sound that different from his usual style tbh. Idols tend to go bolder, chestier with some cleaner habits throughout for their musicals (which is a good thing overall) but Seungsik is still mostly bright and into his nose. But the support is still smooth. I like the G4s in the first clip. Yeah, I’d reckon he’s up in Average around DK, maybe he’s less messy than Baekho/Youngjae. They all have similar tendencies though, I still prefer Sungjae’s sound all things considered lol.

Supported? Sure. The extent of it is questionable cuz yeah, she uses it more like a gimmick. She can probably handle around E5 - F#5ish, unless she loses everything when she isn’t fake opera-ing her way through. Yea Yeah, he does sound like a baritone, judging from how he sounds on those Eb4s. But I wouldn’t say he’s an impressive one lol. ‘Hymn For The Weekend’ - Those C3s are rather lack-lustre lol. He’s approaching like some tenor with that soft tone. Could be wayyy better, it’s basically still high for a ‘low’ note, baritone-wise. There’s support, but it’s kinda basic. I don’t hear an actual smooth, connected sound with vibrato. It’s rough around the edges you can say. I don’t hear any particularly strong development Eb4 - F4 wise too. Some of those Eb4s aren’t cute, ngl. @1:40, wouldn’t say any of these are nice Eb4s lmao. yeah, I expected that kind of raspiness after F4ish. Does seem to happen a lot in baritones. It’s the same thing that tenors can go through above A4ish, there’s some grit there but it does depend on your approach mainly. ‘Sky Full of Stars’ - yeah, very baritone on those C#4s. Not impressive either, it’s a pretty basic note really . I wouldn’t say those F#4s carry support. He’s got some stamina I guess, but they’re also kinda shouty so I wouldn’t give it much credit. It’s more challenging to actually focus and put in effort to pull off clean belts with engagement, rather than just land them out half-yelling. A lot of random tenors can also do this on A4s. He’s definitely struggling on the more closed vowels. It’s not just about the different style in this case, or lack of rounded vowels, his foundations just aren’t that strong. Questionable diction, placement, and quirks may be somewhat excused by style, but not just cord development. And he’s not that strong unfortunately, it’s causing him to lose pitch a few times too. The E4 in the last video too was meh for me. I’m really not sure about what the criteria is for baritones (using my own personal experience with it isn’t really credible), but I guess the intensity for F#4 can be similar to A4/Bb4ish for tenors, depending. So landing out random E4 phrases isn’t really difficult for a baritone really. I’d personally say he’s around Average maybe. I don’t hear anything AA bout him unfortunately. Our resident fake baritone, of course lol. Oh, isn’t he that guy in the cast of Knowing Brothers? He’s still quite stylistic lmao, very 1st/2nd Gen rock style lmao. I remember having somewhat cleaner moments here and there, but generally, very stylistic. Sounds like he’s below Average most likely. I haven’t dug enough but how he supports can be… differing lol. He has very obvious placement issues, but he doesn’t completely lose support. The lady in the black dress doesn’t sound bad, the rest are passes (I don’t look much to the traditional singing unfortunately). It’s giving Hybe. Minimum standard? It depends really. Because head voice isn’t that impressive until there’s some acceptable coordination to them. But as for support in general, I’d say the minimum for when head voice is actually enough to give credit for me would be Suhyun-level head voice. Sunny or Boa kind of head voice don’t really mean much for me . If they can’t manage some coordination in their light head voice, then control is the next thing I suppose. As far as light head voices go, I’d say Kelly Clarkson’s head voice is one of the example of pop head voice that’s somewhat okay enough without the extra coordination. That’s the minimum for serious head voice category I feel like lmao. Support on the C#5s, gets a little funky on the D5s with pushing and a bit of small throat shaping but I suppose support is still carried. But she lacks those rounder belts or much fullness so it wasn’t that impressive to me. Some of those outfits… but yeah, Luna still got it lol. Not really a fan of the head voice in the first clip, but I like the belts. That’s more open than Eunji’s notes in the same area, and she opens up more often than Taeyeon does tbh. Even though her midrange can be . Not a fan of the second clip, that’s where the floppy midrange comes in. Got a bit pitchy too. She doesn’t maintain that strong belty sound. Doesn’t really sound like her in the 3rd clip but not bad. Sorry but the song is very cringe lol. It took me a while to realise she’s singing Japanese lmao. She does support. She’s not doing well on the chorus with those C#5ish though. I like her voice in the 2nd song, she can be quite clean on the verses but it gets messy as she gets higher. Sounds like she can handle Averag Bb4/B4 range at most. There’s not much to comment on with this kind of song, but he does sound like a higher Average to me.

In K-pop specifically? There are a few others who has shown good notes around E3ish area, but the consistency can be a bit questionable (as in, even above that) so for now, we can assume that Uji is the top one to cover, sure. Along with Ock Joo Hyun (she’s OG K-pop, I count her still). The rest aren’t really that different from one another. I’d say perhaps Eunji goes next. Then whoever has F#3/G3 lows can compete lol. BoA is a bit behind if we’re being honest. She wasn’t exactly struggling in the Killing Voice one either. Taeyeon sounds about the same lol. There’s not a lot of space for either of these songs for open vowels anyway so I’m not sure if she was putting it in more effort or not. She wasn’t the laziest here at least. Ailee wasn’t straining per se, but yeah it doesn’t sound like she’s in a great condition. There’s still support up to the E5 in the bridge, but it’s pushed (more so than usual) and it was like that throughout. Might have to keep an eye out, she’s not looking too good these days. But it’s not a drastic drop where she doesn’t support the 5th octave or anything, it’s more like she’s out of shape. She’s doing practically the same things, just not in a good condition, cords wise. We’ll see. DongHa also doesn’t seem to be in top condition this year, but it’s not too concerning imo. It seems like it’s mostly his upper limits that’s a bit worn out right now (Bb4/B4). First clip is fine. The placement could’ve been better but the support was going on strong. Second clip, he went flat on the Bb4 at @7:00. But he was fine for the rest of the clip actually. That strength and resonance was there even on the short G4 phrase before. @7:17, can’t hear cuz his dramatic ass is holding the mic far but the B4 and A4 sounds nice. He’s carrying support on the B4s, with a bit of that throatiness of his. Third clip, he lowered this song by a semitone. Usually it’s B4s. I’m guessing he also knows he shouldn’t push his limits too often lol. The Bb4 was a bit flat at the start, with some throatiness and pushing. Wasn’t great but he does sound a bit tired up there. Overall, I wouldn’t be too concerned cuz his approach and repertoire can be very taxing. I listened to some clips for 2022 and he does have off-moments on Bb4/B4s but since it’s his upper limits only (he’s doing great for the rest still), it’s probably just a tiring year maybe. There’s still supported moments for B4s so. @3:20, still serving resonance on A4. So yeah, just some out of shape moments on upper limits here and there.

That’s an entirely different story with vocalists from entirely different context. I was comparing singers who sang in the same range, with similar enough style to be compared to directly and evaluate accordingly then. I was not comparing singers from decades ago with way different priorities and style. And I have no interest in doing so because my opinion is still the same in that they can’t necessarily do what these modern singers can do and nor do they have to, vice versa. Even when discussing these K-pop singers, that general rule of mine doesn’t apply to every case and depends on some nuances. So we’re not ‘advocating’ for the same thing. I don’t really care anymore for that conversation, even if my evaluations on them are different from earlier years.

It’s best effort she’s put out this year. The D5s carry support, there’s some attempt at opening up on the C5s but her throat shaping so quite small. There’s that usual tightness throughout where she’s not completely free or relaxed, even when she tries. It really shows that her regression goes a bit more than just a shift in placement, she lost a lot of that cord strength too. @2:56, the best C5 in here but it got a bit closed by the end of it. The next C5 too is a bit closed in her throat. It was open just for a second. But yeah, it’s the best effort from her this year so far. To be fair, I really didn’t see how she’d fit into the equation in that song lol. Even Yuju in her earlier days would be having some trouble, cuz unlike Lily, she full on belts Eb5 - F#5s and it’s not very suitable for This Is Me with it’s high ass key. Plus, she did fine with her other singing. The C5 in the Ailee OST had her throat close up and a bit stuck like usual even though she’s trying at least. The other acapella moment was better at trying to open up but still a big difference than in her earlier days. Development with that of an AA’s from NingNing? Never heard it ngl. Even in her best moments, they were always below the standard for me. Saying she does well C5/C#5 is relative, cuz Kei is way bolder but even she’s not there yet lol. Also, the D5/Eb5 was just an OST moment from what I remember, every other attempt live has been very unimpressive. An AA would’ve had way better sound up there even without clean support. It’s not even just her ‘light mix’, cuz when she tries to be fuller, it’s still not AA level. She just lacks the development overall, that’s it. She’d need more than just ‘be chestier’. Lily isn’t pushy lol. Not until Eb5ish but even then she pushes way less than some AAs. But Yuju in her earlier days was just a way stronger vocalist as a whole, and opened up for some ‘resonance’ way more easily. Those cords were strong enough for some decent E5/F5s lmao. We never got to see her at her ‘peak’ though, she debuted and went downhill from there lol. She never got the time to be refined fully. But even then, Yuju was at least more developed than Raina. Fullness in your range is still > extension of support for me.

Oh, he's a baritone? That's cool, I only know one sing of his but just by tone and style alone I thought it was just another tenor. Just goes to show baritones aren't necessarily 'heavy' sounding, especially bright pop ones. Troye Sivan is a bit tricky for me cuz he could still be a baritone who's just very bright and light (while not exactly developed). @3:05, G#4 is still somewhat possible I guess for a high baritone? The E4s raise a bit of doubt for me though. It does get a bit harder to detect these voice types in these cases where they're not technically advanced nor are they singing in the same settings as other obvious tenors (like Korean music often does).

Well, he sounds different lmao. Technique wise, he was a lot less stylistic and void of quirks. His G4s and G#4s carried some support, but they were obviously cords in training. He wasn’t fully settled yet (as compared to now even with the stuck placement). But he was placing his voice more forward and properly, and there was more effort on chest engagement throughout. At the same time though, I think he did lack a distinct tone/flavour to his voice and something that I’ve noticed with idols is they tend to sing in this pretty classic kinda chestier, grounded approach during predebut and I’m assuming it’s during the time they often take vocal lessons. It’s almost like a basis that seems to be somewhat common. But it also means that they don’t really sound special lol so they often modify their approach to fit for a more distinct tone. More often than not though this comes with their fair share of quirks and weird tension so there’s that. But yeah, true to SM Main vocal style, Doyoung did have some nice foundation pre debut.

Oh yeah, I know you didn’t think he’s a baritone, it’s just a fun fact bout him lol. F#4/G4?? Nope lmao. Right now, I’d give him G#4/A4 or just A4. He does get into his nose a bit (plenty of singers do) but he knows when to open up and his resonance can be quite sizeable. Plus, he’s one of the ones with darker vowels too even though there’s some issue with him being tense. I understand haha. I just do it as a fun hobby/experiment of mine. I wouldn’t compare ourselves to any tiers and whatnot, there’s some nuances between amateurs and professionals as far as applying technique and singing goes. But just singing and working towards eliminating tension and developing your vocals is always doable. I’ve been at it for a while and I sure as hell am not gonna go into music for anything other than just a hobby lol. Also I think I remember commenting on that Son Seungyeon thing on YouTube but not sure if that was in reply to you or another user lmao

G#4/A4 seems a bit too high for their second passagi lol. E4/F4 might be more of a lower tenor’s passagi but I think F4/F#4/G4 is the general one for tenors. Baritones’ would be around C#4~Eb4ish, depending on the weight. I mean… the whole basis of their ‘criteria’ earlier on is based on the singer’s ability to sing past their 2nd passagio (i.e. an AA tenor would be able to support past F4~G4 range) so it seems a bit odd that it’s way up there at A4. Other users here who’s more into voice typing also refer to F4 ~ G4 as the passagi for tenors. That blog is rather old now and maybe there’s information here and there that might not be updated. Especially the general notice/summary thing, I don’t think that one had been revised for a while.

I’d give a pass to some G#3s in Hello. But she’s inconsistent with it, depending on how she places her voice down there. The AKMU cover is a bit bright and lack some groundedness, even the A3s are meh. Even in Hello it’s not that strong yet. Hopefully she’ll put in a bit more work. Taeyeon’s up first by far, her D5 carried some support even if a bit tense, and the runs were the cleanest amongst them. Other than that, it’s a bit interchangeable but I’d personally vote for Tiffany tbh, SeoJes were whiny and into their nose even though their D5 were less pushed.

For the males, we have 2 pretty close passagi. Tenors’ would be around C#4/D4 at their first one, then E4/F4 at their second one. Give or take one semitone depending on the weight of the tenor’s voice. For baritones, the passagi would be Bb3/B3 and C#4/D4, more or less. If anybody here knows better, do correct me but I do think this is the general rule. But depending on how you sing, you might not hear that much of a difference even as you climb up. You’d need to know what you’re looking for to hear properly. That’s why for these heavier tenors, the best way to determine their voice types isn’t how they sound at the baritones’ passagio (C#4/D4) but rather, at the tenors’ passagio (F4ish). Because these tenors can still have some respectable amount of output at C#4 area cuz it’s their first passagio anyways, if they go full chest then they’d still sound pretty heavy. But baritones singing at F4/F#4 would be rather distinct. She was sort of misanalysed. Jamie doesn’t really have full resonance A4 - C#5, it’s just bright and quite lacking compared to the others. Plus, she’s got some quirks around A4 - B4 over the years. Nah, you don’t really ‘grow’ into another voice type at that age lol. Usually most singers have already settled into their fachs by their teenage years. Maybe the weight and all that may change (possibly, not sure) but it won’t drop until a few semitones down or even less likely, rise up lmao. It’s still possible for baritones to phrase or sustain above G4/G#4 even, like I said, tenors can climb up all the way to soprano territory so it’s not like baritones are completely encumbered when it comes to mixing high. But the sound will be different. Also, intensity ≠ weight. I’m sure Park Hyo Shin in his 2003 era would’ve sound wayyyy heavier than Scott or John Legend, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he was a tenor even back then. Even if it’s within the same range. You’ll have to hear the distinction between those two. The notes that Scott sang in the G#4 - B4 area didn’t really scream tenor to me. He doesn’t have a lot of presence there even though he was being quite bright. And it’s not like he wasn’t trying, some of those notes he was obviously pushing out but it just does not have the same feel as a tenor’s. Sure, there are cases where darker tenors struggle up there but that’s mostly cuz they’re not good at tenor-ing, and yet they still carry some better amount of strength up there cuz that’s where their voices mainly shine. Even Hwanhee has way larger better presence at G4/G#4 than Scott ever showed though he struggles a lot above that. Listen to that G4 and B4. Seungyoon has a pretty heavy texture to his voice, and less bright than Scott, but his presence and sound on those G4 and B4 are way more better even on the spot. Mind you, Seungyoon doesn’t have the best mixing either. Scott’s Bb4/B4 or even G4 is nowhere near this kind of sound, which is understandable considering he’s a baritone. Scott instead has to compress his vowels, narrow his vocal tract and go into slightly twangier/whiny mode to hit those notes like the B4 at @13:55. Those Bb4s in the Dear Evan Hansen song are pretty small too. Seriously, 90% of the pop tenors can shout/push/squeeze/strain out A4 - B4 with more presence even if they’re not advanced. Even the Bangtan gang regularly do it way easier and louder, it’s just a tenor thing. Yeah but being a baritone in pop is harder really. Most songs are written in a high key. You’d have to be quite in tune with the foundations of vocal technique to even stand a chance at covering normal songs lol. Even for songs that seem low in range, like Jung Joon Il’s Hug Me with only E4s for the majority of the song, that’s a whole ass workout for baritones. It’s just written in a way that it’s consistently above your passagio constantly and it gets tiring fast, that’s why the baritones you can identify in pop so far are either skilled or have gone into rapping. It’s just been that way for a while. Darker mix past G#4?? I’ve rarely ever heard of tenors applying lowered larynx all the way into 5th octave except for people like David Phelps (who isn’t exactly mainstream music lol) so I’d doubt you’d find a lot of those unless you want to listen to opera. That’s just a high expectation. And ngl, I think they’d sound a bit whiny rather than sexy . Ngeh, I’d be careful of saying someone is indisputably the best vocalist etc and whatnot. There might just be someone out there that we in a small community don’t know about lol. And David Phleps isn’t perfect either overall. I wouldn’t really compare him to Sohyang either, they’re mixed aren’t even that similar aside from how they both use lowered larynx even as they climb up. Sure, there’s probably not a lot of candidates but I’d personally not call any of these people inarguably the best male vocalists alive . I don’t know bout any karaoke thread around here. Some people post covers here and whatnot but usually to ask for feedback. I did that a long time ago but I was a newbie here so , got somewhat better since then. Jung Seunghwan is also a tenor who uses heavier approach, a slightly lowered larynx than the bright tenors. Plus, he’s quite consistent with it and doesn’t have any occurring tongue problems as well. Even with that though, he’s not as weighty as K-Will gang so I don’t think he’s into that dramatic subtype personally. For untrained singers, it’s easy to underestimate how much work these vocalists put into their voices. Even the Average vocalists. Honestly, it’s a lot . Not trying to make this about me, but yeah from my experience, it takes quite a bit of work to get those cords working and strengthen up. Even ‘supporting’ or just sounding decent when sustaining takes a lot of time. It works semitone by semitone, and that takes a longgg while. Even with proper guidance, some takes years to really polish themselves and even then it’s not the peak. It takes considerable talent to reach the likes of Good tier and whatnot imo. It depends on what kind of voice you want to train yourself to have. If it’s just the usual bright pop coordination like 80% of K-pop tenors, then that’s honestly doable if you self train, provided that you know what you’re doing lol. It’s not too complicated imo. For the more advanced stuff like applying lowered larynx coordination though, that will need a lot of time and good guidance.

I’m not sure how true that is. You can still engage in the muscles responsible for your head voice even below your passagi. I personally can use it down to D3/C#3ish but like… there’s no reason to . Plus, the sound does get quite weak down there so like I said, it doesn’t seem musically beneficial either. But using those muscles down there is definitely possible and not exclusive after your 2nd passagi. I’ve also heard the sopranos sing in head voice in the lower 4th octave as well.

Yeah, I remember that too. John Park was at the top of P for the male vocalists. It's not like he regressed, I just have a different opinion on him personally and disagree with how his mixed was analysed. The same goes for Jamie actually, who was alos given top P rank but look how that turned out lol. Nahh, don't just take my words for it just yet lmao. If there's any doubt, that's still valid. I haven't really checked Scott's recent vocals, but I do remember sometimes going for phrased A4/Bb4, which are still reasonable. I don't think he actively belts there afaik. What screams baritone for Scott is more so his E4 - F#4, the range where baritones have that sweet spot for belting (like a tenor's G4 - A4 or soprano's C5 - Eb5). @0:44, he was singing less bright here and not very refined mixing wise tbh (trying for that growly, chesty sound) but that's an F#4 and I haven' heard a tenor having to sing that note with that kind of stretch before. @1:05, same for this F#4. @1:52, F4, this time cleaner and brighter, it's still quite belty for him. He's singing with that kind of intensity in range of like D4 - F#4. @2:18, F#4s are squeezed and I think it's more of a high larynx kinda feel here (I'm not sure if this is old or he's just not that consistent here). See, it is possible for tenors to sound rough or overly pushed on F#4s if they're darkening their voice too much and all that, but I've never heard them have a high larynx on simple F#4s lol. @2:27, this attempt is better, he's struggling with the vowel/tract shaping(also not something i've found in tenors). @3:13, this sounds like a baritone belting in the middle to low 4th octave. Even tenors who put in effort to round their vowels on Eb4s don't have this intensity down there. To me, it's just like when tenors go for F#4- A4. @5:56, G#4 was his limit back then, you hear the comparison compared to Seungyoon blasting out a G4 randomly lol. Meanwhile for Hwanhee: @4:40, it's not nearly as intense as Scott's. And he doesn't have to adjust much for it either. Tenors already start belting at F#4 of course, but it doesn't sound or feel particularly high from them, even with Hwanhee's more narrow vowel shaping sometimes. @4:47, a relatively brighter G4 from Hwanhee and it doesn't carry the sense of struggle that Scott does on F#4s. I also never heard Scott approach G4s head on like that before (there may be some moments that I dont know bout tho). Alos, yes, Hwanhee's A4 and above sounds hella compressed like what I mentioned to be what's expected of tenors by C5s or so. Well... that's just his doing lol. He just never really figured how to belt fully past G#4 and resorts to doing adjustments earlier than where he's supposed to. It's quite weird for a tenor but yeah. Before he went into this journey of his very heavy approach, Hwanhee was kinda bright in his early days. @2:05, A4 is definitely giving tenor sound lmao. It's very early SM too, approach wise. I wouldn't say Scott carries no weight per se, but I think we're used to expecting baritones to sound like heavy tenors lol. Not really. Lyric baritones like Scott will probably just sound like a pop tenor, just a few semitones lower. Not everyone will sound like Frank Sinatra, there's a very obvious, distinct coordination there that makes that sound. Pop baritones will sound poppy. Not necessarily incredibly thin, but it'll be rather obvious if they're going to try constant G#4s like Hwanhee does lmao. They might also be able to mix brightly like tenors in the 5th octave but there's limited examples for baritones. I'm not sure of the exact equivalent note-by-note, but A4s is around C5 level of intensity yeah. Yeah, David Phelps is one, and also someone who incorporates that more lowered larynx into his belts. There are probably others but I don't have anyone in mind so far. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone who can go brightly into those C5/C#5 area, we already have a few in Korean music who can maintain that at B4s so.. A bit too pushed for me on that A4. The phrased ones maybeee I can give a pass but it's still meh for me personally. Yeah, he'd be at least AA. He doesn't sound as naturally weighty as K-Will/Chi Yeul to me even when he lowers his larynx a bit. Far enough lol. I don't really care much since he doesnt sing in a tenor range anyway. Yeah, I'm a baritone lol. No, I'm not trained, but I did practice a bit of the basics. If you're completely untrained and can have a comfortable belt at G#4, you sound like a straight up tenor to me lol. When I started singing, my ass was struggling with hitting E4s, much less anything above G . Untrained tenors also would struggle in that range so that sounds pretty in line. Also, I do think that the limits for falsetto/head voice can vary person-to-person but in my case, Bb5 is my limit. I physically can't go beyond that with my head voice, at the time being (I also am not gonna bother my way up there lol). And around G5 area, it would already be hella high for a baritone (you can hear Scott's for reference) but tenors can do it pretty often in their songs so. Not in artists, I only heard from other people. There's no point of doing that musically speaking haha, I was just saying that tenors transitioning into head voice at their passagio is still defo possible. Well yeah, and it can be quite obvious too who the weightier ones are. But I dont really see the point of identifying spintos and all that specifically, I just call them heavy sopranos/tenors. Eunji is definitely not just full-lyric for example but it doesn't really matter with her kind of singing.

He'd still be at least a Proficient. His vocal weight in itself doesn't mean much (because in most cases, there's no discernible gap in difficulty for pop music at least) but Hwanhee coordinates wayyy heavier than the usual pop tenor. He does have a relatively lower larynx position and all that, and quite consistent with resonance up to G#4. He is basically the tenor version of MoonTaek now, except with less skill above G#4 but better lower range. But I wouldn't say he's beyond P-G, his mixed is very limited for a tenor. Aside from the clip RATY showed, the head voice thing is a bit of an inconclusive thing as far as vocal typing goes. Some can bring their head voice to the 3rd octave even.

Yeah, and Seungsik is one of the better Averages I’d wager. Sounds like he could be high A.

Ohhh Han Seungwoo lmao. Pretty sure the ‘seungwoo’ name is spelled the same either way, it’s the surname that’s different. Okay yeah, Han Seungwoo is W-A at most. I guess you could say Junho is stronger but that guy only has like, 2 occasions where he tried a bit more in his midrange but he’s still shallow above E4ish.

Yeah, probably. I don't like Sungwoon's approach and placement, quite whiny but yeah, support up to F#4 and throughout midrange. Starting from @0:22, it's cleaner (but can still be slightly into his nose) than Sungwoon's and it's quite nice for him, support throughout up to those F#4s. Definitely Average. I think he sounds stronger than I remember, which is odd since apparently he hasn't released music since 2020. Or maybe I remembered wrong idk. @1:00, he sounds a bit softer than the other two but yeah, support seems to be present. The short phrased F#4s are all fine. He's the least developed I'd say, but sounds passable for Average. Junho was getting shallow and a bit stuck in his throat on F4s, Seungwoo was clean on F#4s so yeah, he's better lol. I just checked Woodam for a bit and yeah, he's Average. Hweseung still leaves quite a gap from the others (to be fair, I think he wasn't quite as developed as now when he was in PD but still AA)

Yeah. I did come across their KOMS performances and some clips recently. Sungwoon and Seungwoo both sound like they're Average. Minhyun also sounds alright in his KOMS performance, though it was a bit more limited in range but sounds like he can support, might be an Average too. Possibly. I haven't the rest of them though so. The strongest male vocal to appear in PD101? I think Hweseung appeared on there first, right? He'd be the strongest (Mid AAish at least) if I'm not missing anyone else. Kinda doubt it, would've noticed if anyone there could produce resonance lol.

Yuju singing This is Me when she’s struggling with the stuck C#5s and D5s all this while??? Oh Lord… With Lily and Ailee, she can’t bring her indie ass style in there . Lily might just sound the most acceptable there cuz Ailee with her whiny vowels may not be as suitable as Lily’s bright notes, at least on F5s and above. Also, 3 solo stuff for Lily? Wow.

John Park didn’t regress, he’s just not as impressive as we initially thought . Not sure bout his ranking just yet, I just listen to him generally and he barely puts in effort in his mixed. Like, very barely. I don’t remember the last time he even tried to ‘belt’ something out, he mostly just goes for some lazy phrases around D4s - E4s, which isn’t exactly Proficient worthy when you’ve got tenors like Hongki or Junsu resonating consistently lol. He does have well rounded registers, but overall, he just doesn’t seem to have the capacity in his mixed range. It’s can be quite raw and unrefined too. Yeah, Hwanhee isn’t a baritone. He’s just a heavier tenor who sings darker and sort of neglects anything beyond G#4. I think Scott Hoying is indeed a baritone. He was never on the same level as belts as Hwanhee (it’s not like he regularly sustained G#4s lol) and plus, he’s much brighter in coordination, which makes sense and is still comfortably within the expected sound for a baritone. John Legend is also a chestier baritone who’s alright in his mixed, though he has some stylistic tendencies according to his genre. He mixes around and above G4 range often, but the sound is definitely different. I’m not too sure of the extent of Chi Yeul’s support, he might’ve shown some better moments above that perhaps. Baritones belting around G4/G#4 would be quite a different sound compared to tenors. The easiest way for me to explain it is by just imagining tenors struggling on C5s. They’ll have to adjust their vowels, more often than not, and their vocal tract also has to shaped to be more narrow. It’ll result in a more thinned out, pinched sound that obviously would take up a lot of effort and big adjustments to how they approach the notes. Think of the usual K-pop tenor navigating through a passage in the 5th octave. At best, maybe the advanced ones like Park Hyo Shin can manage the passages at C5 with more fullness but there’s still gonna be a degree of compression because of how much you have to adjust your tract. It’s possibly for tenors to land a more ‘free’ sound on C5s, but usually it’s a pushed, bright open vowel climax note kinda thing. You don’t hear them approaching back-to-back C5s with full on belting. That’s what baritones would most likely have to do when singing G4/G#4s lol. It’s possible of course, but not with the kind of intensity/approach that Chi Yeul did. He was just passing through the G4s just fine, except for his own issues, but he didn’t struggle with having to compress it or adjust his tract. Baritones don’t fizz out on or after A4 specifically, but it’s a very high note to be ‘belting’ on. I haven’t really heard a tenor ‘belting’ on C#5s without some obvious brightness and compression. About Changyeon, unfortunately no, he’s not really resonating anywhere in the performance. He’s just quite bright. @3:46, that’s thin and pushed, but it’s bright so it doesn’t sound too ugly. @3:52, again, thin and kinda more in the throat imo, even the G4 after isn’t that strong tbh. The G4 carries support, I meant that he doesn’t have the coordination to make it ‘resonant’ and it’s nothing much. @4:19, bright and high larynx. He’s an AA as far as I’ve heard. Han Dong Geun also has some quirks that’s got to do with his larynx position (most prominently) but I think it mostly translates to messy tongue lol. He gets rather pushy, but I’ve heard some quite nice belts up to G#4s, with some nice vowels and passable resonance imo. His A4s get a bit too pushed for me though. There could be some better moments. He’s got a nice lower range too, at least around C3, and most probably carries it down in 2nd octave too. Low notes are one of the aspects to listen to when identifying tenor or baritones, sure, but we gotta take into account on how Woorim sings. It’s not a really solid comparison between him and other pop tenors. Woorim is straight up ‘classical’ and he’s singing with a lowered larynx 90% of the time. This isn’t necessarily bad (though it’s not exactly proper by opera standards) but it does change the sound of his lows. There are some operatic tenors who can sound strong down to F2-Eb2 areas still. And personally, I do hear some tenor quality even in the low notes. Like in that first video, I’d expect a baritone of that coordination to be way fuller, and passing through that passage with less intensity spikes. Even with just normal pop larynx, I can phrase around A2/G#2 in just speaking sort of tone and effort, without the added ‘dips’ into the notes like what he’s doing. And he’s at his limit around F2/E2 (almost fry), which is low even for baritones, but I think if a baritone with that coordination were to sing it, it would’ve been way more present and less muddy. I have no idea but the raps they do can be pretty high pitched, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were tenors. Yes, Jung Joon Il is a tenor. The convict is also a tenor . The E4 is giving me tenor vibes ngl. He doesn’t have that much presence there, yknow like I would’ve thought a baritone with that kind of larynx position would’ve sounded heavier. But he was not as low-larynxed there, it was a bit brighter so I think it’s a bit clear for me to be more of a tenor. The F4 has much more of a consistently low larynx position but again, it doesn’t exactly scream baritone to me. But there’s room in that clip for doubt. @0:40, his speaking range is more like a tenor’s to me. It can be a bit lower here and there cuz he likes to talk in fry (or sometimes even straight up low larynx too) but there’s a lot of moments there where he mainly talks in E3 - G#3 range, even up to Bb3ish in certain phrasing. He goes around A2ish at the end of phrases but again, it’s more like fry. @1:00, meanwhile Chanyeol is averaging around B2 - F2, E3ish at the top phrases here and there. It’s not necessarily foolproof, but considering Woorim goes into the low larynx, dark sound 90% of the time (even when he’s speaking ), it’s the most direct comparison we can get. Chanyeol’s speaking range is pretty low by comparison, it just doesn’t sound like it. @0.50, peaks at around F#3ish but he mostly just stays at G2 area. So yeah, I think he’s a tenor probably. But that’s just me (and C.Y pointed it out to me along with an example of an operatic tenor who can produce the kind of sound Woorim is making in the lower ends of second octave).

People going off on key changes can definitely happen, the usual factor is their cords/placement at the note. Some singers have their ‘money note’ on just one, then lose most of the good qualities when they jump to the next one. It’s not exactly easy to do it tbh, a semitone difference in the 5th octave is a lot especially if you’re trying to maintain the same sound. Granted ofc, Sunye does have a problem with her somewhat flimsy coordination, she can usually do better but I’m not surprised it just sort of gave out. Kei was just pushing her way through so I wouldn’t count that as a good example. Ailee is … Ailee lol, can’t compare that to Sunye’s case. Her cords are just way stronger than Sunye’s so she won’t have much of a struggle unless she’s overdoing the whininess. C5/C#5 is comfortable within Ailee’s limits, but it’s at the top for Sunye’s. The same way I wouldn’t put an example of key changes with Haeri even if it’s Eb5/E5 lol. Yuju at the time with C#5 as her limit. @3:50, open C5 but the C#5 got into her nose and her cords at the time weren’t that strong so it ends up sounding weaker even though she’s trying. It’s a pretty common thing for a vocalist that’s singing near the top of their limit. There’s only a few exceptions I can think of who really just do quite well even at the top of their comfort zone (like Chen with those G#4-A4 notes in that OST of his), but it’s more nuanced than that. Nonetheless, jumping from one note to the other while belting is pretty difficult especially for everyone below P. Uhh, I haven’t really been searching out for baritones per se, but the most certain one would definitely be John Park. Which is a shame, cuz he’s not that impressive vocally lmao, so turns out there’s no belter baritones. Roy Kim and Hwang Chi Yeul are definitely tenors. He just sings in a relatively lower average range for a tenor. It can still work well cuz he brings some roundness around F4 already. @5:16, F#4, straight tenor. He’s not really darkening his sound either so it’s kinda clear. @5:32, G4 - A4. Pretty sure he’s had some good G4 notes too. Hwang Chi Yeul ,on the other hand, is weightier and often adds some artificial darkness/muddy quality to his voice (a lot of tongue issues follow). But the way he sings in the 4th octave is still very tenor. @2:18, singing a lot of G4s and G#4s in this performance. As tense and gritty as it is, the way he sings those shows that he’s a tenor regardless. A baritone would have a field trip singing in that range with that kind of intensity. Basically, Chi Yeul is like a rougher, messier K-Will. Han Dong Geun is a tenor yep. Woorim is arguably a tenor too, but he kinda overdoes his whole ‘baritone’ role thing so I haven’t even heard him sing above Eb4s (or even talk without that low larynx) but I’d say he’s a tenor too. There can be tenors with strong lows, especially the ones who are more into classical. I still think Chanyeol is a baritone but yeah that’s it. There might be some others in K-pop groups but I doubt they sing much.

If she continues to sing like that? She'll stay where she is lmao. Those moments are her only saving graces tbh, without them she'll be lower. Even in those songs, she's got the same issues as usual and I haven't heard any extra effort beyond B4/C5.

The first clip had phrased Eb5s, they carried support. The second clip were D5 and C#5, both were nice. I mean yeah I'd give her a pass C#5/D5 at least. She can get a bit off up there if she's not focusing (which isn't that big of a deal but we need to wait for more).

With her current approach, when Taeyeon doesn't put conscious effort to be fuller, she'll end up sounding tight and small. I heard that in the Kissing You, it wasn't great lmao. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnxPMtrRpTs @2:53, I expected better even if she didn't properly focus. It's a very big contrast from how she sounds in her earlier years ngl, not necessarily for the better too in this case lmao. Even in the midrange @2:28. The tonality wise it's on the same level even compared to the others lmaoo.