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#21 junglove

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:12 PM

 

 

Because it's freestyle, I'll cut her some slack on flow... But I guess i don't need to because it's near-perfectly consistent throughout during the freestyle, her delivery (although sometimes muddy) is brilliantly enunciated and the emphasis is placed in the right points, but the emotion is lacking in some places. Her vocal tone is fine some times and messed up in other places, but I guess she's messing around here so I can't fault her on that.

 

She's very good for an idol rapper and is really close to being the complete package. I think it's more or less just advancing her skills more and being more consistent.

 

 

 

Thank you


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#22 The Dense One

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:15 PM

I don't mean to bother you but what do you think of the girl with a bandana tied up in her hair:

 

 

Sorry if the song bugs you. I think her flow is pretty decent but it's her vocal tone that is a bit high-pitched.

 

Here's another video of her:

 

 

Oh you mean, Ashley (BIPA)? Let's see...

 

You are right about her vocal tone, it is higher than normal (but that might be due to her age, she'll eventually grow out of it). Her flow is very nice, she is clearly adept at different types and she's introducing different styles of flow known as "chopping" and "stop-and-start" in the second/third verse and first verse respectively which is very advanced.

 

Chopping is stuff like what Twista and Busta Rhymes and T.O.P (Doom Dada) do, where it is more onomatopoeia and speed rapping in the place of words, it's rather hard to do if you don't have much of a hip-hop influence and are just starting out in rapping.

 

Stop-and-Start is where the flow literally stops in the general direction it goes for a second and then restarts again. It messes around with the rhythmic cadence of the verse and again is quite advanced if you're not used to it.

 

Displaying stuff like that shows that Ashley knows what she's doing, and is quite adept at it too. My main issue is her delivery...

 

It can be quite slurred during the fast bits, a notable example is when she says "I gotta wing" it actually sounds like "I gotta win" an easy mistake to make but it ruins the message of your lyrics which is the most important part as a rapper.

 

She has immense potential and she's only young too (or so I assume), so the sky is the limit really.

 

(Also, I really like Lip Service... Just saying).


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#23 Athena

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:18 PM

Oh you mean, Ashley (BIPA)? Let's see...

 

You are right about her vocal tone, it is higher than normal (but that might be due to her age, she'll eventually grow out of it). Her flow is very nice, she is clearly adept at different types and she's introducing different styles of flow known as "chopping" and "stop-and-start" in the second/third verse and first verse respectively which is very advanced.

 

Chopping is stuff like what Twista and Busta Rhymes and T.O.P (Doom Dada) do, where it is more onomatopoeia and speed rapping in the place of words, it's rather hard to do if you don't have much of a hip-hop influence and are just starting out in rapping.

 

Stop-and-Start is where the flow literally stops in the general direction it goes for a second and then restarts again. It messes around with the rhythmic cadence of the verse and again is quite advanced if you're not used to it.

 

Displaying stuff like that shows that Ashley knows what she's doing, and is quite adept at it too. My main issue is her delivery...

 

It can be quite slurred during the fast bits, a notable example is when she says "I gotta wing" it actually sounds like "I gotta win" an easy mistake to make but it ruins the message of your lyrics which is the most important part as a rapper.

 

She has immense potential and she's only young too (or so I assume), so the sky is the limit really.

 

(Also, I really like Lip Service... Just saying).

Oh you've heard of her? Yeah I also thought that her delivery was the biggest issue. Thanks for your input! :smile:


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#24 The Dense One

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

Thank you for your input I really love M. shinoda and his raps because his content is gold and I', happy to hear he's a good rapper.

 

No worries, but the point of this thread isn't to re-affirm your liking for someone, rather to point out where rappers are in their proficiency and the areas in which they need to improve. For example, I don't consider Jimin (AOA) to be a good rapper, but people still like her.

 

At the end of the day, who you like is down to you! :)

 

 

The vocal tone is actually ideal in terms of how deep it is, the delivery is perfect because it fits the song and the persona, although you can tell that she needs to not speak through her nose (hence the reason why it sounds like she has a cold), the annunciation could be more clear too, but that might be the effects because it is a studio version.

 

Her flow is my main issue, but it could just be the lyricist, it's very lackluster and boring... Even if it aegyo rap, it needs to be a bit more consistent there are way too many pauses at awkward places too. The rhythmic cadence is constantly disrupted so you couldn't even consider it stop-and-start flow.

 

Overall though, for a non-rapper, she's okay...

 

 

I love Mike Shinoda, his Fort Minor stuff is beast... He's the idea of a complete package as a rapper. His flow is always consistent, his delivery is absolutely spot on and his vocal tone fits the song each time. I think the one flaw is that he has a tendency to put too much emphasis on some words sometimes and it actually goes against his flow but that's sort of rare.

 

 

Because it's freestyle, I'll cut her some slack on flow... But I guess i don't need to because it's near-perfectly consistent throughout during the freestyle, her delivery (although sometimes muddy) is brilliantly enunciated and the emphasis is placed in the right points, but the emotion is lacking in some places. Her vocal tone is fine some times and messed up in other places, but I guess she's messing around here so I can't fault her on that.

 

She's very good for an idol rapper and is really close to being the complete package. I think it's more or less just advancing her skills more and being more consistent.

 

 

Show me some examples first, please

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

gawddd this album was the shit,the best combo ever

 

 

 

 

 

 

G-Dragon first...

 

His flow is very nice, it's consistent and has no issues in terms of how the words melt into each other. His vocal tone is a bit on the high side but it's still ideal and has enjoyed great success. His delivery doesn't have a lot of problems, but it could be better. The emphasis and the emotion is there, but it's missing some power... That could be due to the song however.

 

T.O.P is similar to GD in the sense that his flow is very consistent, moreso than that of GD, and his vocal tone is more ideal but it's on the deeper end of the spectrum, it works for him though. His delivery is a lot stronger too and the emphasis is there but sometimes it's a bit too much... His main problem is the emotion behind it, he needs to work on emoting himself through his words, it's all fine and dandy being able to deliver the words with enough emphasis to show that your angry, but it only sounds rough it never sounds angry (using anger as an example).

 

The funny thing is, however, these two compliment each other perfectly because they cover each others flaws and boost their strengths to new heights. Good duo there.

 

(By the way, didn't you want me to do one for Rap Monster as well?)


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#25 junglove

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:35 PM

can you do a kpop idol female rapper ranking chart?

 

is it miryo>>>>>>>>>>

 

also what do you think of CL in the leaders? was she any good there?

 

 

 
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#26 The Dense One

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:42 PM (Edited by The Dense One, 05 February 2014 - 11:43 PM.)

 

can you do a kpop idol female rapper ranking chart?

 

is it miryo>>>>>>>>>>

 

also what do you think of CL in the leaders? was she any good there?

 

 

 

 

 

Going off the top of my head, it was CL, Yubin and Miryo in the top 3... I can't remember the rest, but I'm not sure if I'll do that anytime soon because then it will start fanwars, and I'd rather just do it individually.

 

CL's strength is her delivery, it's seriously amazing for a rapper in her genre and she is untouched in that area, it fits her persona perfectly too. Her vocal tone is ideal too, her flow is really nice but it can be worked on and tweaked a bit more so that it's a bit more consistent.

 

Her flow seems choppy sometimes, but I guess it's because she emphasizes delivery over flow which is perfectly fine, she's a complete package anyway and she has the same goal as Miryo in terms of just improving everything overall, but she should never lose the energy of her delivery, it is what sets her apart from most other Idol Rappers in K-Pop and puts her on a pedestal.

 

In this live, she's a bit too shouty for my liking, but I think she's doing that to get the crowd hype which is admirable but misguided... Otherwise she did pretty darn well! :)


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#27 JJJ

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

Is CL honestly a good rapper? I know mostly it's all subjective as it should be but I feel like she's declined.

 

She used to be really good but this doesn't seem good to me at all (but then I don't know anything about rap), it's just really unpleasant to listen to

 

 

?


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#28 junglove

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:57 PM

Going off the top of my head, it was CL, Yubin and Miryo in the top 3... I can't remember the rest, but I'm not sure if I'll do that anytime soon because then it will start fanwars, and I'd rather just do it individually.

 

CL's strength is her delivery, it's seriously amazing for a rapper in her genre and she is untouched in that area, it fits her persona perfectly too. Her vocal tone is ideal too, her flow is really nice but it can be worked on and tweaked a bit more so that it's a bit more consistent.

 

Her flow seems choppy sometimes, but I guess it's because she emphasizes delivery over flow which is perfectly fine, she's a complete package anyway and she has the same goal as Miryo in terms of just improving everything overall, but she should never lose the energy of her delivery, it is what sets her apart from most other Idol Rappers in K-Pop and puts her on a pedestal.

 

In this live, she's a bit too shouty for my liking, but I think she's doing that to get the crowd hype which is admirable but misguided... Otherwise she did pretty darn well! :)

thanks for replying, yeah CL can be a little shouty sometimes (that's the only thing I don't like about Cl )

but I agree with you I also think she has a good delivery


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#29 The Dense One

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:00 AM

Is CL honestly a good rapper? I know mostly it's all subjective as it should be but I feel like she's declined.

 

She used to be really good but this doesn't seem good to me at all (but then I don't know anything about rap), it's just really unpleasant to listen to

 

 

?

 

The decline probably comes from the fact that she doesn't need to try as hard as she did during her debut years OR she's more busy therefore she's more tired... But that's only in reference to lives.

 

Going by radio appearances and her studio stuff, the improvement is there... Her delivery has actually improved and her flow is a lot more fluent than it used to be. Really choppy back then.

 

thanks for replying, yeah CL can be a little shouty sometimes (that's the only thing I don't like about Cl )

but I agree with you I also think she has a good delivery

 

No worries, it's what I'm here for! :)


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#30 JJJ

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:03 AM

The decline probably comes from the fact that she doesn't need to try as hard as she did during her debut years OR she's more busy therefore she's more tired... But that's only in reference to lives.
 
Going by radio appearances and her studio stuff, the improvement is there... Her delivery has actually improved and her flow is a lot more fluent than it used to be. Really choppy back then.


But doesn't she scream instead of rap? In actual recordings she sounds normal but for some reason on stage she screams her lines lol


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#31 yournoona

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:03 AM

Dense, how to improve flow and how to set right delivery for certain song?
Im no rapper or whatsover but im really interested in this area.
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#32 junglove

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:08 AM

But doesn't she scream instead of rap? In actual recordings she sounds normal but for some reason on stage she screams her lines lol

maybe she is likes to hype the crowd


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#33 yournoona

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:13 AM

that's one thing bout cl i dont like, she tends to shout. why cant she rap normally? tbh, she isnt even bad. it's like she raps one or two pitch higher than her normal pitch in the studio version
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#34 The Dense One

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:15 AM

But doesn't she scream instead of rap? In actual recordings she sounds normal but for some reason on stage she screams her lines lol

 

I agree, she is very shouty on stage and that works against her all the time. So on lives she's either stopped caring or she's trying too hard, either way it's really bad there. But that's more to do with actual performance style, her rapping technique has improved by leaps and bounds though.

 

Dense, how to improve flow and how to set right delivery for certain song?
Im no rapper or whatsover but im really interested in this area.

 

Flow is mostly a natural thing. When a person speaks they have a unique way that they do so, it's the same thing with rapping... The way to improve flow is to experiment with it. Instead of just rapping your own stuff, do other artists raps and find a flow that suits you... Or you can do the opposite and jump out of your comfort zone and do something that is really uncomfortable until you get used to it.

 

Another way to experiment with flow is to freestyle and see how rhymes naturally come out of you. With me, I find that while my written raps are very fluent with flow and I like to make sure everything smoothly transitions from one place to another, my freestyles focus more on delivery and as a result my flow is more punchy naturally.

 

The main focus is knowing what your flow is naturally like and messing around with it until it sounds good or feels right.

 

Delivery is a lot more structured. Although it is dependant on the song, the ideal rap delivery is very crisp, clear and punctuated. Every word must have some sort of emphasis and emotive drive to it.

 

For example, a traditional Bang Yongguk rap is slow and punchy on flow but very in-your-face in delivery, whereas a Zelo rap is very fast and smooth on flow  hence the delivery isn't as strong because it isn't as necessary.

 

You could consider Delivery as part of your acting skills. Depending on the song and your flow, your delivery must co-ordinate with that, and the on thing you must remember is that your words need to be heard and understood. you could have the best rap in the world, but if your diction is bad then there is literally no point in rapping at all.

 

Practice enunciation and emotion for delivery, that's it really.


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#35 yournoona

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:22 AM

I agree, she is very shouty on stage and that works against her all the time. So on lives she's either stopped caring or she's trying too hard, either way it's really bad there. But that's more to do with actual performance style, her rapping technique has improved by leaps and bounds though.


Flow is mostly a natural thing. When a person speaks they have a unique way that they do so, it's the same thing with rapping... The way to improve flow is to experiment with it. Instead of just rapping your own stuff, do other artists raps and find a flow that suits you... Or you can do the opposite and jump out of your comfort zone and do something that is really uncomfortable until you get used to it.

Another way to experiment with flow is to freestyle and see how rhymes naturally come out of you. With me, I find that while my written raps are very fluent with flow and I like to make sure everything smoothly transitions from one place to another, my freestyles focus more on delivery and as a result my flow is more punchy naturally.

The main focus is knowing what your flow is naturally like and messing around with it until it sounds good or feels right.

Delivery is a lot more structured. Although it is dependant on the song, the ideal rap delivery is very crisp, clear and punctuated. Every word must have some sort of emphasis and emotive drive to it.

For example, a traditional Bang Yongguk rap is slow and punchy on flow but very in-your-face in delivery, whereas a Zelo rap is very fast and smooth on flow hence the delivery isn't as strong because it isn't as necessary.

You could consider Delivery as part of your acting skills. Depending on the song and your flow, your delivery must co-ordinate with that, and the on thing you must remember is that your words need to be heard and understood. you could have the best rap in the world, but if your diction is bad then there is literally no point in rapping at all.

Practice enunciation and emotion for delivery, that's it really.

So let's say i rapped to an rnb track, i should deliver it smoothly and fit the emotion of the song? i shouldnt be all angry or aggressive because it doesnt suit the song ?
For rap lyrics, should i put punch lines etc? im trying to write stuff. because im a beginner, i tend to write everything as long as they ryhme lol and they fit the beat perhaps~ is there any rule for rap lyrics?
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#36 JJJ

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:26 AM

I'm just interested about your opinion on Zico now :lol:

 


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#37 The Dense One

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:33 AM (Edited by The Dense One, 06 February 2014 - 12:43 AM.)

So let's say i rapped to an rnb track, i should deliver it smoothly and fit the emotion of the song? i shouldnt be all angry or aggressive because it doesnt suit the song ?
For rap lyrics, should i put punch lines etc? im trying to write stuff. because im a beginner, i tend to write everything as long as they ryhme lol and they fit the beat perhaps~ is there any rule for rap lyrics?

 

Yep for a RnB track your delivery should be softer and smoother (if you're talking like a slow jam type of song), but if it's something bittersweet like "Love The Way You Lie (Eminem ft Rihanna)" or "Read All About It (Professor Green ft Emeli Sande)", then due to the lyrics it should be more emotionally driven and slightly more aggressive but not aggressive in the sense that you want to kill someone or trying to be a gangster rapper or something.

 

Your delivery should be dependent on the lyrics and the beat, but not entirely dependent on either one whilst neglecting the other.

 

As far as lyrics goes, there is no right and wrong lyric. The only thing that makes your words incorrect is if they don't fit in the song or they don't fit the rest of your rap.

 

Never forget about your rhythmic cadence too... Sometimes you can write something that rhymes and the words go well together, but it could be off-putting when you try to get out the line after it.

 

Last but not least, always go over what you've written to see if it makes sense or if the rap sounds good. It helps to record yourself too, because then you can get a better judgement of how well everything goes together.

 

Something I personally do is I think of my rap as a building, the first line is the foundation, the next few lines are the bricks and the cement, the punchlines and metaphors are the windows so the listener can see my artistry, if they can't understand your punchlines or your metaphors then the blinds are closed.

 

The last few lines are the roof, so I can look down and see whether or not my building is tall enough to reach the skies with expert craftsmanship and brilliant structure, or if it's a faulty mess that looks like it's gonna topple over at any second.

 

Finally, best of luck, rapping is fun once you get the hang of it, but it's a long hard journey that will you cost you a lot of A4 paper if you don't have a laptop! XD

 

 

I'm just interested about your opinion on Zico now :lol:

 

 

I'm already familiar with his stuff, but just based on "No Limit" here's what I think of him...

 

His flow is top-notch, the words just melt into each other with expert-level fluency. He even experiments with the flow and chops it in places and brings it back just to throw some weight to the words he says, however sometimes it can be jarring when he chops it in "No Limit" because it seems like he's off-beat but then he's not, this is not "Stop-And-Start" this is "Stumbling or Disjointed Flow" which is even more advanced but annoying for me personally, however he includes some "Stop-And-Start" with the "non-verbal" part... But otherwise really nice flow.

 

The emphasis and emotive nature of his delivery is perfect again, but the enunciation is bad here. It's too mumbled at parts and that is a sin to do on a beat like this because everything needs to be crisp and clear because the instrumentation isn't that layered or thick so the mistakes or muddiness of the diction is heard more clearly.

 

His vocal tone is quite good, but a bit nasally, however when you rap like that it doesn't really matter too much.

 

Zico is a naturally gifted rapper, his flow is very fluent and he has the emotive and instinctive part of delivery down. But his main issue is his technique, he needs to make sure that his consonants are crisp and clear and his vowels ring when he raps, he also needs to make sure that his flow doesn't get out of control when he writes which is similar problem to the one that I have, which is why I notice it so clearly!

 

But overall, he is a very adept rapper and with a bit more work he can be a dominant force among idol rappers in the years to come.


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#38 yournoona

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:46 AM (Edited by yournoona, 06 February 2014 - 12:50 AM.)

Yep for a RnB track your delivery should be softer and smoother (if you're talking like a slow jam type of song), but if it's something bittersweet like "Love The Way You Lie (Eminem ft Rihanna)" or "Read All About It (Professor Green ft Emeli Sande)", then due to the lyrics it should be more emotionally driven and slightly more aggressive but not aggressive in the sense that you want to kill someone or trying to be a gangster rapper or something.

Your delivery should be dependent on the lyrics and the beat, but not entirely dependent on either one whilst neglecting the other.

As far as lyrics goes, there is no right and wrong lyric. The only thing that makes your words incorrect is if they don't fit in the song or they don't fit the rest of your rap.

Never forget about your rhythmic cadence too... Sometimes you can write something that rhymes and the words go well together, but it could be off-putting when you try to get out the line after it.

Last but not least, always go over what you've written to see if it makes sense or if the rap sounds good. It helps to record yourself too, because then you can get a better judgement of how well everything goes together.

Something I personally do is I think of my rap as a building, the first line is the foundation, the next few lines are the bricks and the cement, the punchlines and metaphors are the windows so the listener can see my artistry, if they can't understand your punchlines or your metaphors then the blinds are closed.

The last few lines are the roof, so I can look down and see whether or not my building is tall enough to reach the skies with expert craftsmanship and brilliant structure, or if it's a faulty mess that looks like it's gonna topple over at any second.

Finally, best of luck, rapping is fun once you get the hang of it, but it's a long hard journey that will you cost you a lot of A4 paper if you don't have a laptop! XD

Thanks dense for the input !! it helps !
I have a laptop lol~ i've been learning how to make music instrumentals too haha im kinda interested in music production. I've recorded few covers but honestly im not confident yet since they are pretty terrible (bad idol rappers level perhaps haha) maybe next time, i'll ask for your input, because i'd like to improve.
Btw is rapping something natural or a thing you can actually learn? Judging from few kpop idols who couldnt rap at all nor know a thing bout rap, and finally become ok rappers, ex hwayoung. perhaps ?
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#39 JJJ

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:55 AM

I'm already familiar with his stuff, but just based on "No Limit" here's what I think of him...
 
His flow is top-notch, the words just melt into each other with expert-level fluency. He even experiments with the flow and chops it in places and brings it back just to throw some weight to the words he says, however sometimes it can be jarring when he chops it in "No Limit" because it seems like he's off-beat but then he's not, this is not "Stop-And-Start" this is "Stumbling or Disjointed Flow" which is even more advanced but annoying for me personally, however he includes some "Stop-And-Start" with the "non-verbal" part... But otherwise really nice flow.
 
The emphasis and emotive nature of his delivery is perfect again, but the enunciation is bad here. It's too mumbled at parts and that is a sin to do on a beat like this because everything needs to be crisp and clear because the instrumentation isn't that layered or thick so the mistakes or muddiness of the diction is heard more clearly.
 
His vocal tone is quite good, but a bit nasally, however when you rap like that it doesn't really matter too much.
 
Zico is a naturally gifted rapper, his flow is very fluent and he has the emotive and instinctive part of delivery down. But his main issue is his technique, he needs to make sure that his consonants are crisp and clear and his vowels ring when he raps, he also needs to make sure that his flow doesn't get out of control when he writes which is similar problem to the one that I have, which is why I notice it so clearly!
 
But overall, he is a very adept rapper and with a bit more work he can be a dominant force among idol rappers in the years to come.


I never heard someone refer to Zico as nasally before

 

But also, don't some people just speak slightly "nasally"? Idk how to explain it but some people just have a tone that tends to sound nasally??? Why is it a bad thing


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#40 The Dense One

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:56 AM (Edited by The Dense One, 06 February 2014 - 01:01 AM.)

Thanks dense for the input !! it helps !
I have a laptop lol~ i've been learning how to make music instrumentals too haha im kinda interested in music production. I've recorded few covers but honestly im not confident yet since they are pretty terrible (bad idol rappers level perhaps haha) maybe next time, i'll ask for your input, because i'd like to improve.
Btw is rapping something natural or a thing you can actually learn? Judging from few kpop idols who couldnt rap at all nor know a thing bout rap, and finally become ok rappers, ex hwayoung. perhaps ?

 

No worries, I love to help and I'm glad I did! :)

 

It's great that you're going into the production side of things too, that will help you understand the beat better, I know this from making some beats myself! XD

 

Rapping is natural I suppose, because singing is as well... However, just like with singing, you can learn the correct technique and improve what you've already got.

 

The best thing about Rapping is that there is no pressure to get a note wrong like there is in Singing, it's all about making sure your words are clear and making sure that they flow well together... It's so simple on paper, but the real hard work begins with making it sound good and then adapting your style to fit in other situations...

 

Hwayoung is an excellent example of growth, it's not impossible to learn how to rap properly, it's just hard... but if you really want to, you can do anything you set your mind to :)

 

I never heard someone refer to Zico as nasally before

 

But also, don't some people just speak slightly "nasally"? Idk how to explain it but some people just have a tone that tends to sound nasally??? Why is it a bad thing

 

His nasal twang isn't that obvious or intrusive, so it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway... Unlike someone like Jimin (AOA) where it is completely obvious and detracts from whatever flow or delivery she has.

 

Of course being nasally in rap isn't a completely bad thing, it's not like being nasally in singing after all, but it just has a grating and unnerving quality that can get on people's nerves if there is too much nasality.

 

There are two ways of being nasally as well, their is the "Anastasia effect" made famous by Canadian singer Anastasia, where it is really grating and twangy, the other way is where it sounds like you have a blocked nose like Way from Crayon Pop when she raps.

 

In rap, the tone of your voice is what sells you as a rapper. if you sound bad, then no matter how good your bars are, you will not have commercial appeal (unless they are completely, mind-blowingly amazing).


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